“The Duke Of Burgundy” Is The Lesbian BDSM Film You’ve Been Waiting For
The Discussion
Rushaa: I mentioned earlier about the trope about the cold domme learning to love.
Fikri: Wait, Cynthia? I might have read it completely differently from you! But go on.
Rushaa: I think there’s this odd idea in so many films that dommes are just generally sadist/bitchy people who don’t really respond to subs. So you get this staging of the incredibly refined, well-dressed, ordered to the point of obsessive person who is frequently rude to the protagonist. Then they learn that there is something special about said person and they act more loving towards them, but that tears them a bit because apparently it is in the domme nature not to love (*cough* The Movie That Shall Not Be Named *cough*). I basically went in expecting something a little like that but with lesbians and the very beginning I was hopeful it would be a little different but I wasn’t sure. I think it actually works very well because the first 5 mins I couldn’t tell what their exact relationship was (whether Evelyn was Cynthia’s maid or love) and I think the movie plays off the expectation that we will be seeing the character’s relationship beginning. When Cynthia peed in her mouth I thought, “Oh sweet, they definitely know each other,” and I could relax since I figured it was all discussed beforehand.
You have this great flip after the beginning where we see things from Cynthia’s point of view, and see how nervous she is about getting everything right because she loves Evelyn so much and wants her to be happy. Cynthia stole my heart at that moment. So I think the film plays with the idea of a cold and unreachable domme initially and then says, “That’s just the illusion, look at the care and intimacy that this power play is actually about.” I thought that was really positive and showed how different facets of BDSM can ultimately just be expressions of love, which I think shocked a couple of people in my screening.
You said you might have a different interpretation? Mine was that Cynthia was desperately in love with Evelyn and didn’t express her limits very well because she was worried about losing or disappointing her. Evelyn also seemed to get too caught up in expressing her wants that she didn’t notice until much later how Cynthia was getting increasingly strained by it all.
Fikri: Okay yeah, I get that. I thought you read it as “cold domme learns to love” (which is, thankfully, not something I am exposed to very much), period, when I saw more of how it was a lover trying to accommodate her partner’s needs as a sadomasochistic submissive (which echoes my own feelings). I knew the beginning was role play but still it was just about uncomfortable enough to put me on edge, because they hadn’t yet shown the terms of play or consent. I appreciated how the film expressed quite clearly that 1. the beauty of BDSM relationships is that often power actually lies in the sub (which is probably something I read from Sinclair Sexsmith), and 2. an equitable relationship is not one in which power dynamics are necessarily even, but rather one in which they can always be renegotiated (which is something I read on Twitter probs).
Rushaa: So I think we basically saw it the same way then.
Fikri: The scene when the two of them were in bed and Cynthia had to narrate a fantasy but was unable to (“Try to be more confident next time,” was it?) and when Evelyn was in the trunk and couldn’t help checking if Evelyn was really okay were def my favourite moments.
Rushaa: It was sweet and it felt nice because it was totally something I would do because I panic about making sure everyone is okay.
Fikri: YEAH it was so cute. I would actually describe bits in this film as cute, which I did not expect!
Rushaa: I felt it was a little mean of Evelyn to not reply in that part because if it were me I would have immediately broken apart the trunk thinking that something had gone horribly wrong.
Fikri: The trunk scene? Didn’t she go “yes!” in an annoyed voice?
Rushaa: Only after Cynthia asked her for the second time when she got no response. I think Evelyn was trying to ignore Cynthia breaking character.
Fikri: Ah, okay. Yeah that goes back to what you said: I completely agree that Cynthia didn’t express her limits well, which was where the story conflict was. It did an excellent job of showing the emotional strain D/s dynamics can cause if they’re not discussed or negotiated, but then we also gotta talk about what I think was one of the most painful moments of the film or at least where there was the most to unpack: the violation of Evelyn’s safeword on her birthday.
Rushaa: The birthday scene at its very beginning already made me uncomfortable because of how passive-aggressive Cynthia was being. I think some other people in the audience initially thought it was Cynthia trying to be more domineering as a birthday present to Evelyn.
Fikri: I did. Especially because the scene about “I wish you would do things without being asked” was just before.
Rushaa: I think it was played to make most people unsure of which it was. I may have too much experience dealing with passive-aggressive people before. When she asked her to lay down I thought, “This is just cruel.” I’m curious since you thought it was a genuine act at the beginning — what did you think of Evelyn seeming a bit upset at having to make her own cake?
Fikri: Okay I should first say that by this point in the film it was no longer clear what was play and what was their raw relationship, because the film was taking a more surreal turn away from the hyper-realism of e.g. Cynthia (I JUST TYPED BIRGITTE) practicing her lines, Evelyn tapping on the window, etc.
Rushaa: That’s true.
Fikri: Or, for that matter, the clearly genuine passive-aggressiveness that lay beneath their argument about Cynthia’s back hurting. So I wasn’t even clear on whether the scene where Cynthia accused Evelyn of cheating was real or roleplay, and by the time the birthday scene rolled around I was distinctly uncomfortable but not particularly more than how I was in the beginning.
But similarly, the point when she asks her to lie down was when I stopped believing it was probably play. And when Evelyn uses her safeword and Cynthia doesn’t stop, that crossed the line for me. I tried to rationalise it in so many ways, especially because the film had been making us sympathetic to Cynthia up till that point. (Aye, that this was my first reaction troubles me a bit, but…) It was clear that she was really in a bad place, and I even stretched it as far as thinking that maybe Evelyn had a different safe word for this kind of play than with the trunk… but still, that’s a really fucked up response even to a really fucked up situation.
And again because the film was more surreal at this point, they didn’t explicitly deal with it in the way that they did the earlier scenes. This is when they started going into metaphor land with the bugs and the skeleton and the woods. I’m not sure it ever got resolved for me. Maybe it just wasn’t. Maybe what Cynthia did was actually just a not-okay, unforgivable thing.
Rushaa: It was such an awful moment. I think it was the casual way Cynthia then said, “If only piamente (?) could make all our troubles go away” that twisted the knife. She violated a boundary and then went, “Life’s shit, deal with it.” I didn’t like the fact that they never really dealt with it again either.
Fikri: (Pinaster, maybe? I actually first heard it as “be nasty” and thought it was Evelyn asking for Cynthia to step up her game in the middle of the night and I was like YO LET HER SLEEP.)
Rushaa: (Ah it’s pinastri, I’m guessing related to Sphinx pinastri which is a moth. I thought Cynthia had a different domme name to help her get in character so I only realised it was a safeword after Cynthia violated it.)
Fikri: It was in one of Evelyn’s cards but I’m not sure if that appeared before or after. I think after? It was in the scene where the card is burning.
Rushaa: I think that was after? Time is all over the place in that film.
Fikri: Yeah, and it does a real good job of making you doubt what you know.
Rushaa: But okay, back to the safeword situation: as far as I could tell they seemed to start shifting back to normal after that without any explicit discussion.
Fikri: Yes, though with more breaks in character/routine and more reassurances, but still. It wasn’t enough for me.
Rushaa: Also can I just say that cinemas can be lovely but they can also be the worst — at my screening the two hetero couples on a double date near the back laughed at the safeword violation. The laughter was not nervous.
Fikri: What? Ngh. My audience was definitely silent.
Rushaa: I like your audience better.
Fikri: I don’t think the film left it completely unaddressed, to be fair. I think it didn’t just show the cracks but also started showing how to mend them, and I didn’t get the impression that it was forgiving Cynthia’s behaviour. Also, it didn’t cast it as an issue with BDSM power dynamics in themselves but rather more universal problems with relationships and shitty communication.
Rushaa: I definitely agree with that — the issue wasn’t presented as “kink is evil” but about communication.
Fikri: Though of course we also need to acknowledge that kink can take those ordinary problems and make them far more dangerous than they otherwise would be.
Rushaa: Definitely. I think in a way it’s a strong contrast with the trunk scene. There Cynthia is double-checking and is still very nervous about leaving Evelyn. On the birthday she abuses that power. I was worrying the whole film that something awful would happen with the trunk, and then it gave me something entirely different to be hurt by.
Fikri: Yeah, overall I am def not 100% okay with that scene. There’s probably something to be said about how Cynthia’s abuse of her power came in a clear moment, whereas Evelyn’s (and Evelyn DID also do not-okay things) was more gradually revealed. It stretches the way we think about consent and how it’s negotiated in non-verbal terms, and the dangers of assuming that power dynamics are fixed.
Rushaa: Evelyn certainly had a problem with either not noticing, or in some places willfully ignoring what Cynthia was going through. It’s unfortunately realistic in its showcase of problems as well. She constantly flipped the issues back on Cynthia. She should be more domineering, she should know that she wants to be in the trunk, she should schedule things to her desires.
Fikri: Yep. When Evelyn said “I wasn’t getting what I needed here,” that’s classic abuser language too, but the kind that’s normalised as romance or desire. I don’t want to equate what Evelyn did wrong with what Cynthia did, because I don’t think that’s possible and it’s also counterproductive… just that I think the film makes us think in less straightforward terms about power and consent.
Rushaa: Agreed that they aren’t the same thing.
Fikri: I was also never really sure that Cynthia was into it, and that got troubling for me after a while. Because only Evelyn was constructing the fantasies and I got that Cynthia loved Evelyn, for sure, but I’m not sure I got that Cynthia actually wanted to be a domme beyond that.
Rushaa: The one moment when they actually communicated as they should have been doing all along was when Cynthia was in tears apologising for ruining the scene and Evelyn just said it was okay and then they got rid of the trunk. At the very end! I got the impression that they were trying to compromise, so Evelyn slept in the bed but sometimes they still roleplayed, but it was an issue that Cynthia really wasn’t into it. LET HER DOMME IN PJ’S.
Fikri: Yeah. I fully accept that it can be a beautiful, loving thing to play to your partner’s desires even if they’re not necessarily aligned with your own, which was cute and sweet in the beginning, but then… it got dark. As we’ve discussed.
Rushaa: I did feel a bit more assured at the end as I think initially Cynthia was worried about Evelyn going so once she realised that Evelyn would stay regardless it became less about her own fears. Likewise I think Evelyn realised she was going too far.
Fikri: Okay wait but it’s definitely fucked up to have to play to a partner’s desires because you think they’ll leave you otherwise. That’s what was uncomfortable for me.
Rushaa: I guess this comes back to what we were saying about consent and communication, especially non-verbal. That’s what made my heart break for Cynthia up until the birthday scene. Evelyn had all this power and was insisting on doing a scene even after Cynthia hurt her back.
Fikri: Mm, yes. Up till that point the roleplay power dynamics between them were perfect but the power that Evelyn had outside of play was unsettling.
Rushaa: The good thing is that all of these issues were actually framed as issues by the film.
Fikri: AH there was also another significant violation of consent that wasn’t the two of them. THE CARPENTER. Saying that one of the neighbours had ordered a bed like that?
Rushaa: I was just about to mention that!
Fikri: And then the fatphobic joke (I was like NO CYNTHIA MY HEART).
Rushaa: I thought that she would tell them she couldn’t say, but no.
Fikri: Again, not to equate this to the fucked up shit Cynthia/Evelyn did, but that was REALLY NOT OKAY. It was probably my least favourite part of the film because it wasn’t even not-okay in a complex way that makes you think, it was just not-okay in a really gross and unnecessary way.
Rushaa: I kinda wish that they then established that the reason they don’t get the bed is because the carpenter violated privacy, rather than Evelyn needs to have something NOW. It reminds me too much of some of the people I know who go round and occasionally out people (both as queer or sometimes into kink) because they just don’t think. I hate seeing that in films being unaddressed, and then the fatphobia as the icing on the shitcake.
Fikri: Yeah, and it was clearly just meant as a cheap joke and nothing else.
Rushaa: Also the fact that the lead-in to the joke was premised on the assumption that fat people can’t be into kink.
Fikri: Okay, we sound overwhelmingly negative about the film now but that’s really not all it left us with. We judge because we love. Maybe we could talk a bit more about the sex in the film? I mentioned in the spoiler-free zone that it’s an incredibly sexy film with very little actual sex going on.
Rushaa: There were brief snippets here and there, and then that one scene where Cynthia fails at talking dirty.
Fikri: YES that might be my favourite scene in the history of ever. I also live for that scene of Cynthia in the chair with Evelyn going down on her, because again, SBK. (Okay I’m just about old enough now that sexual attraction to fictional characters played by real actresses seems at least a little wrong, but…)
Rushaa: I’m hoping there’s a gif of that on the internet.
Fikri: And drinking water! “Drinking water.” The “try turning the tap on” scene — again not things I ever thought I’d be enamoured by.
Rushaa: I liked the fact that you could hear in my cinema as each individual person clicked what the water drinking was connected with as the scene went on. In the tap scene I’ll be honest — I thought for a second that it was something else until Evelyn said that. So again, personal relief arrives with pee.
Fikri: Ha, okay. I think it’s fair to say that the film captures sex, love, lust and affection all at the same time and really well, which is really impressive. I usually really hate artsy scenes like (in my opinion) unnecessary close-ups but Strickland definitely knew how to build sexual tension. Again: soap bubbles.
Rushaa: I looked up the “Duke of Burgundy” butterfly and apparently it got its name because it can be mistaken for being part of a different butterfly family but it’s not. I’m guessing the link is Cynthia trying to be super domme but not actually being a super domme in a particular sense.
Fikri: I’m really glad they didn’t incorporate the bugs into the sex stuff though. I was really afraid they would. I would probably have cried if they did. I’m not even particularly bugphobic I think that just would have been too much for me.
Rushaa: The dream sequence was too much for me. I couldn’t tell what was going on. I looked around and everyone else was also equally puzzled (except one of the two loner guys who had clearly been looking for something more pornographic and just looked sad). I was also confused by the two creepy mannequins just sitting at the back of the lecture theatre. Why were they there? Who knows?
Fikri: I’M GLAD I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO NOTICED IT. For a while I was waiting for an explanation for that, but when I realised it wasn’t coming, I think I rationalised it as contributing to the… ethereal? feel of the film? Because while it’s firmly realistic in some ways it’s also set up in an ambiguous location in an ambiguous time and the characters don’t have much context outside of their relationship with each other. I figure all of this was meant to build up to the dream sequence you mentioned. What did you feel about it?
Rushaa: It felt unnecessarily French. (I joke.)
Fikri: I AGREE THOUGH.
Rushaa: It was very much women in darkness running around with moths so whilst it was visually interesting I understood none of it. Also did the dream start in Cynthia’s vulva or earlier? Because that was confusing.
Fikri: …it started in her crotch, yes. That was probably the only point in the film where I was like “okay now THIS is unnecessarily artsy” but I am okay with people disagreeing with me on this, because I know I have plebeian tastes.
Rushaa: Eh, I live with a French person and even she would probably have made a weird face.
Fikri: I know it was their attempt at resolution after the safeword scene and maybe the reason I feel it wasn’t satisfactorily done was because I AM NOT REASSURED BY METAPHORS. SKELETONS DO NOT WORK FOR ME. But maybe they work for other people, idk.
Rushaa: I don’t know if they work for anyone except critics and directors. Butterflies all over my screen do not make a point, especially when I don’t know who was dreaming. When the sides started closing in I was worried that was the end of the film. Thankfully it was not.
Fikri: Me too! I was ready to be like fuck these artsy folks what was that?! But the actual ending was a lot better, yes.
Rushaa: Although I wasn’t sure if it was merely mirroring the beginning or was the beginning.
Fikri: Good point. I think we’ve just about covered it now. Oh also, the cat obvs. The cat was great.
Rushaa: Ha, I saw that and thought “NO, not more lesbians with a cat.” I keep being the only one not enamored with cats.
Fikri: SHHH. Shh you.
Rushaa: Am I a bad queer? Are we all witches and I didn’t get the memo?
Fikri: Yes.
Rushaa: I am not discussing the cat with you.
Fikri: Fine.