Wait Is This a Date Archives

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Season Two FINALE: Long Distance Crushes with Elise Bauman

Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to get through this thing called… a season finale! Yes, it’s true, today’s episode marks the end of the absolute blockbuster that was S2 of Wait, Is This A Date?

And to celebrate that ending, who better to come on and discuss the joys and successes of a long distance crush, than actor and queer person Elise Bauman? You might recognize Elise from Lifetime’s delightful queer Christmas rom-com that come out last year, Under The Christmas Tree, but around these parts, she has another title that is nearly as vaunted: Drew’s girlfriend! Yes, that’s right, this sparkling twosome was birthed from the great queer tradition: the long distance crush.

But what is it about the long distance crush that is so appealing to queers around the world? Is it the relative scarcity of like minded queers around you? Perhaps the ability to flirt long distance takes some of the pressure off? The three of us get into all of it, AND Drew and Elise share some possibly TOO cute details about their relationship!

And of course there is a game! This week, I make Drew play the game that simply took over Twitter and Tiktok for a few fleeting weeks: “They’re a 10 but…” It’s a good time, all around!

SHOW NOTES

+ Follow Elise on Twitter and IG!

+ Read Drew’s interview with Jinx Monsoon!

+ Watch Bend it Like Beckham, it still rocks!

+ Johnny Sibilly’s thighs are… indeed quite compelling!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfCuUHrPrwV/?hl=en

+ Will Shortz is in fact the name of the NYT Crossword Editor! *the more you know*

EPISODE

Elise: And then we got off the phone, and then we both hopped on the phone two seconds later we’re like, “So the border is closed, we are legally not allowed to actually go across the border.”

Christina: I mean, top among one of my favorite voice memos and or texts I got from Drew, I can’t remember which form it came in, it was like, “I made this plan and now the borders are closed.” Yeah.

Elise: Yeah, it was a real moment.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? is an Autostraddle podcast brought to you by me having the giggles, and the question that is on everybody’s lips, wait, was this a date?

Drew: We’re at the end of our second season, and I think we solved it, I think.

Christina: Yeah, I think I’m just bringing big finale energy, like when comedies used to be in front of a studio audience, and everybody would walk in and there was an hour of applause because it was like, it’s the last, that’s how I’m feeling. Though to be clear, no one has applauded me yet, hateful. Thank you, thank you. Now I feel loved and held. Drew, who are you?

Drew: Oh wow, forgot about that part.

Christina: Yeah, right?

Drew: Maybe season three I’ll get the intros. My name is Drew Gregory, I am a writer for Autostraddle, a filmmaker, a queer trans woman. You know what, I think if we do another season I want to have a fun one I throw in at the end.

Christina: Ooh, something spicy, you want to jazz it up?

Drew: Yeah, I don’t have anything today though.

Christina: Okay, leave them wanting more, I think that’s great.

Drew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christina: I am Christina Tucker, I am also a writer at Autostraddle, and the internet at large. A podcaster, a gay Black woman, and someone who’s feeling pretty jazzy right here on this afternoon.

Drew: Great, I’m really glad that you’re jazzy and I’m spicy, or at least I’m planning for the possibility that someday I’ll be spicy.

Christina: Yes you’re like, I don’t know, the first half of the movie Dune, the spice will come. Cool reference, ladies, she’s single. Anyway, I do have a game for us to play on this hollowed day of our finale.

Drew: Incredible.

Christina: This is the classic, and by classic I mean a game that took over the internet and TikTok for a couple weeks, “They’re a 10, but…”

Drew: Ah, great.

Christina: Now Drew, I’m going to set out some ground rules for you, because I know you love a follow up question.

Drew: Great.

Christina: When I say they’re a 10, they’re a 10 to you in any way that matters to you, that could be physically, that could be emotionally, this is just a person you feel is a 10, okay?

Drew: Okay, okay, thank you.

Christina: I do not have any scenarios for what else you in this person have been doing in your dating life, you’re just going to have to go with your gut and decide.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: All right?

Drew: Yes.

Christina: We’re going to put where make that clear, here we go. They’re a 10, but they clap when the plane lands.

Drew: I always felt like people were too dramatic with this, where it’s like they’re a 10 and that thing makes them go to a two, come on.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: So I’m going to still give a pretty generous eight.

Christina: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I think eight is the correct amount of cringe removal for that little action. All right, this is a great start. Okay, they’re a nine but they never text you first.

Drew: And I can’t ask follow up questions?

Christina: No, no, no.

Drew: So I can’t ask, well do they text me back when I text? I would say a five.

Christina: Yeah, not texting first ever, that’s rough.

Drew: Ever is weird.

Christina: That’s rough stuff. All right, they are a five but they drive you to every errand that you’ve ever had to run.

Drew: That’s really nice, but I could always… If there were five, I’ll give him a six.

Christina: Sure, sure. But I know you love a solo jaunt anyway, you love an errand run.

Drew:I mean today my girlfriend Elise did drive me to an errand, and I was very grateful, but if that was the only thing she did we wouldn’t be in a relationship, that was just an added little nice bonus.

Christina: I think that’s fair.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: All right, they are a seven but they only pretend to read your work.

Drew: See the aspect of that that bothers me is the pretend.

Christina: Pretending, I knew it would be.

Drew: It’s not the not reading it. If they didn’t read my work it’s like, I’m not that, I’d be a little, it’s like never? But it’s fine, I could get over it. But they lie to me about that is what’s weird to me, so that’s going to go down to a three.

Christina: Yeah, correct, correct. They are a three but they have access to the criterion closet.

Drew: And do I get you to go?

Christina: And you get access, you benefit from that access, yes.

Drew: I could have a solid fling with that six.

Christina: I think you could. It was a three, but yeah, you’re knocking it up to a six.

Drew: No, no, no, that’s what I’m saying, I’m knocking it up to a six.

Christina: Gotcha, gotcha. I love that. They’re an eight but all of their friends are straight.

Drew: Okay, there was some discourse about this, because I think there was a you need help. I think I maybe was on the opposite side of most of the Autostraddle team who said that it is fine to only have straight friends. I would like to say that it is fine, it’s just not the life I lead. All straight friends, that’s going to go to a two.

Christina: Yeah, I’m going to have to agree with you on that one, I would just find it a little troubling, confusing.

Drew: All straight friends?

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: If they’re new to queerness and are wanting to meet more queer people, that’s different than if they’re an established season queer who’s like, you know what? I like being the one lesbian in my friend group of straight people.

Christina: Yeah, I would feel the same way if it was a Black person who was like, “I don’t have any Black friends,” I would be like, “What’s going on there?” Internally.

Drew: We’re not in a network sitcom, we can’t have a token person.

Christina: You don’t need to be the token, you don’t need to do that to yourself. All right, we have three more. They are a seven but they spend all their free time in the gym, constantly lifting weights up and down. I don’t know what people do in the gym.

Drew: All of their free time. I guess it depends on what counts as free time. I’ll say a five.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I’ll bump them down two.

Christina: Bump them down.

Drew: But that’s fine. I guess it depends largely for me, which I’m not asking a follow question, I’m sticking with five, but it depends to me what counts as free time.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: Can we watch movies together, or go out to eat, is that free time? Is not work time free time, or is it just like when we don’t have other activities?

Christina: I hear you, I hear you.

Drew: But I’ll stick with five.

Christina: All right. They’re six, but their mom is hotter than they are.

Drew: Oh, I don’t know to go up or down.

Christina: I know, right?

Drew: I don’t think I could ever date someone for their… It’s like if I’m not attracted to someone in the first place, I’m probably not going to be dating them.

Christina: Right.

Drew: I’m not going to be like, well, they could turn into their hot mom. I think I’d say that they’re still a six, I’m just going to not call them and I’m going to call their mom.

Christina: Yeah, I feel like it’s like you stay the same, but maybe I hang out with you a little longer than I would in order-

Drew: That’s a good point.

Christina: To get some mom time. I don’t think you change.

Drew: I did something really bad that I still feel badly about, which is that someone asked me out, and this was when I was in college, and I was not interested, and so I was clear about that, I was clear I wasn’t interested. But then she wanted to be friends, and I could tell that she said she wanted to be friends but it was coming from place-

Christina: She was hoping.

Drew: Yeah. But the thing is that all of her friends were really hot and cool, and so I did continued to be her friend in order to hang out with her friends. I didn’t lie about my intentions generally, but it still wasn’t the nicest thing I did as a 20 year old.

Christina: I mean unfortunately it just reminds me of that episode of Sex and the City where Carrie’s dating, I believe it’s Justin Theroux, and he sucks, but his family rocks, and she’s like, I can do this for a bit. I’m like, yeah, absolutely, who couldn’t.

Drew: Carrie wasn’t trying to hook up with his family, which is the difference, but you know what? It’s fine, we’re all good.

Christina: A hookup can look like anything, I’m always saying that.

Drew: That’s a really great point.

Christina: Your final one, is a three but has a beach house.

Drew: I’m about to say an annoying sentence, but I went to NYU.

Christina: Horrible to say.

Drew: Something that sucks about me, which this is going to sound like a humble brag, because it’s actually probably a good character trait, but it sucks as a person going through the world. I went to a school that’s filled with rich people who have all sorts of awesome beach houses, and all these other things, and I only became friends with people who were there on scholarships. Not only, but primarily, I definitely, I didn’t make friends with people who had beach houses.

Christina: You didn’t utilize.

Drew: Yeah, and so I think if they’re a three but they have a beach house, they’re probably a two. The fact… I don’t know.

Christina: Yeah, you just can’t make that leap to utilize the sick beach house moment.

Drew: No, it sucks. But what I’m really hoping is that my friends who are fairly down to earth, good people, more and more of them are just going to continue to get that new money and then get beach houses, and then I’ll be able to hang out with my great friends and be at a beach house. That’s the dream where I could get the beach house.

Christina: That’s the dream at the end of the day, it’s new money and a beach house, that’s all we’re looking for. You heard it here first folks.

Drew: I love new money.

Christina: Love new money.

Drew: Love new money. Yeah, that was a delight. I’d actually, I’d really been wanting to play that game since it was a thing on TikTok, so thank you for making my dreams come true.

Christina: I thought it would be a fun one to do, and it was very fun to come up with them.

Drew: Well, should we move on to our main segment of the week, which is falling for people who live in other cities. Which is different than long distance relationships, because long distance relationships can start well into a relationship, they can continue on into a relationship, this is the desire that queer people have to look at their place that they live and go, no, I’m not going to flirt with these people, I’m going to go on instagram.com and find someone who lives very far away. And we have a, I know we always say a very special guest, but for me this is a very special guest. Do you want to introduce yourself?

Elise: I would love to introduce myself. Am I the special guest?

Drew: You are, yes.

Christina: Baby, of course.

Elise: Great, wow, amazing. My name is Elise Bauman, I’m an actor, I’m a queer person, and I’m here today because I’m sleeping with one of the hosts.

Christina: Guess which one?

Elise: Yeah, the rest of the podcast is just the audience trying decipher which host I’m sleeping with. I like that, it’s like a murder mystery but-

Christina: There’s no way to know.

Elise: There’s no way to know. Yeah, does this make me a nepotism baby? Is that how the industry works.

Christina: Yes, that’s how the industry works, babe.

Elise: Nice, nice.

Christina: This is it.

Elise: Wow, maybe I could get a career out of this.

Christina: Fingers crossed for you.

Elise: Nepo baby to career, wow, fantastic. I’ve always wanted to be a nepo baby.

Christina: I’m so glad.

Drew: Yeah, I was just going to say that for people who don’t know, well now I’m ruining the murder mystery of it all, but Elise and I are in a relationship, and did start dating during the pandemic, and Elise lives in Toronto, and I live in Los Angeles, which are in fact different cities, and are in fact in different countries.

Elise: They are indeed, they are indeed.

Christina: And Drew, not to say that you went against your own gut, but I do feel as though you are usually a person who says, why bother with a long distance moment? There are people right here I can date, why do this to yourself? You know it’s going to be hard, you know it’s going to be a challenge, why do this? And yet here you are.

Drew: See, that’s interesting, because I feel like I always liked to have a little of both, I just think I didn’t take the long distance ones maybe as seriously.

Christina: Maybe that’s it, yeah.

Drew: But I always enjoyed a long distance flirt.

Christina: True.

Drew: And so I think this just kept going. When we started-

Elise: So the answer, Drew, wasn’t that I was just irresistible and it was personal to me, and that it was very specific to me that I was just amazingly irresistible so you just broke all your rules and you said, “I have to have that one.”

Drew: I mean it is sort of the answer in a longer sense. In the sense that it just kept happening. And then our good friends of the pod, Mal Blum and Gab Dunn, who I used to live with, as some of you may know, I would always be like, I’d be trying to date people during the pandemic in Los Angeles and the surrounding areas of Los Angeles. And then they’d make fun of me because I would sometimes just be like, “I mean, I could just try to date Elise Bauman.” I was always, “I mean, this person lives in Toronto, so no we’re just going to continue flirting.” But then at a certain point I’d made a lot of mistakes. Some of which have been documented on this here podcast during the pandemic and my dating. And then I was like, “Well, I keep being drawn to this person. And yes, the distance is tricky, but maybe we should do a little FaceTime.”

Elise: Which was a year into us flirting via the internet.

Christina: I am very aware of the Drew side of this burgeoning relationship. But Elise, I’d love to get your takes. Are you a long distance dater? Are you one of the queers that is constantly, “If I was in Ireland, me and this person would be together.” Because was this a new experience for you?

Elise: No, I mean, truthfully, I hadn’t really been in many long term relationships.

Christina: Brag.

Elise: Until recently. No, it was. I think the reason for me that it all worked out so well is that I had so many walls up. And so, being able to take it slow with zero pressure. We met over this Zoom live read at the beginning of the pandemic and added each other on Twitter, started liking each other’s tweets. Then I think it went into a Twitter DM, very romantic. And then we just started talking and then we just talked on the internet for a really long time. And it was like, this really slow, organic, nice way of doing things. Because I think because you lived in a different country, it meant that the pressure was none. I was like, “Wow, if it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t work out. I’ve never even seen her face to face still. What’s the worst that could happen?” Because of that, I don’t know, it just, it gave it a nice rumination period. I like to say that if my last relationship was 30 seconds in the microwave, this was a slow braised lamb stew. Or something.

Christina: Okay. It’s giving barefoot Contessa.

Elise: You know what I mean?

Christina: We’re going direct from the Hamptons. We love that. We love that. I mean, I do think that part, I have never done an actual relationship, surprising no one, via a long distance. But the long distance flirt that is very fun to me. But it’s always, as it always is, making it something more than just a long distance flirt or spicy replies to Instagram stories. I’m always like, “Ooh. And that’s where I get lost.” Or I forget, or don’t have the attention span. I wonder if that’s part of the problem for me. It’s tough to say.

Elise: It was funny because when Drew eventually, a year into us every couple weeks having long flirts on Instagram, was like, “Would you like to FaceTime sometime?” And my first reaction was like, “No, you’ve ruined it. You’ve taken…” I was like, “No, we got to either be in a relationship or the flirtation ends. There’s stakes. Now, it actually goes somewhere now.” And I was like, some of the walls started coming back up. And then we FaceTimed. And our first FaceTime, true to queer history, was about seven hours long. And then we just kept on FaceTiming for… Well, it was originally not going to be as long, but then we had this big, long talk one time. We were like, okay, we talked about everything. We talked about how we like to share space about what it would be like to meet for the first time we literally talked about everything. And we got off the phone and we were like, “Okay, we’re feeling good about this. We’re going to do it. We’re going to, Drew’s going to come here or I’m going to go there. It’s going to be great.” And then we…

Drew: No, we picked a date. I was going to book a flight.

Elise: Oh, we picked it. Right, right, right. And then we got off the phone and then we both hopped on the phone two seconds later. We’re like, “The border is closed. We are legally not allowed to actually go across the border because of that.”

Christina: I mean, top among my favorite voice memos and/or texts I got from Drew, I can’t remember which form it came in. It was like, “I made this plan and now the borders are closed.”

Elise: Yeah. It was a real moment.

Drew: And initially we were FaceTiming once a week. We kept that as a boundary of sorts, where we… It was really just once a week. They were six or seven hours long, but it was once a week. And then, once we reached that point where we were going to meet and then the existence of borders got in the way, then it became a lot more like we were just in a relationship. Where we didn’t talk about it that way, but where we just would FaceTime each other randomly when we were going about our days or whatever.

Elise: It was less of a once a week date night thing.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: It was like, we’re going to meet in person at some time. Let’s remove some of these boundaries around our communication style.

Drew: I mean when I asked you to FaceTime, I genuinely didn’t know if we’d been flirting. Is this a date?

Elise: That’s so funny.

Drew: But stretched out over a year where… And it’s because people all have different flirting styles and we weren’t like-

Elise: You literally sent me poems that you wrote in Paris when you were a teenager.

Drew: Right. See to me that’s flirting. But to a lot of people that is the sort of friendship. Not…

Christina: Hey, hey, hey, hey.

Drew: We weren’t doing anything sexual. It wasn’t like so-

Christina: Could have been the start of a podcast. Did you think about it?

Drew: Exactly. I also had multiple experiences over the years where I had been like, “Oh, this is flirting.” And sometimes, we responded to each other’s stories with… I think once I responded to a thirst trap you posted with swoon and things like that. There was definitely some acknowledgement of attraction. But also again, people who are becoming friends sometimes are also like, “Oh my God, hottie.” It’s confusing. And then, I said, “Would you like to FaceTime sometime?” And you said, “I usually wait until I’m at a year into an Instagram flirtation before I do a FaceTimes, but I could break the rules by a couple weeks,” is exactly what you said. Then I was, I remember…

Elise: Wow, that was good.

Drew: Yeah.

Elise: I’m like, “Yeah, cool. Great.”

Drew: I was in the main house with my friends and was like, “Yes.” I was like, “Yes, this is flirting. It was flirting. We were flirting.” And they were making fun of me because I had been so, “I shouldn’t have sent that. I shouldn’t have sent that. I shouldn’t have sent that. I’m going to ruin.”

Christina: You got the touchdown, babe.

Drew: Now, when LA people break my heart, I’m not even going to be able to have this hot Canadian to think about. Oh God, what did I do? What did I do? And then you said that. And I was like, “Yes. Yes.”

Elise: Oh. And the rest is history.

Christina: And the rest is a gorgeous history. And then, Drew got to not only meet me in person for the first time, but then drive right on up to Toronto to see you.

Drew: I know.

Elise: No, that’s true. Yeah.

Christina: I do feel like I’m hugely a part of your story, to be clear.

Elise: Massively a part of it. Huge, huge, huge.

Christina: In many ways, it’s like who is in a relationship here? It’s who know? It’s like, it’s all married together.

Drew: I mean season one, we would always ask our guests if this was a date. This is a little bit of a thruple date I think.

Christina: This is absolutely.

Drew: Right now. Yeah.

Christina: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Elise: Because you couldn’t fly for some reason. And so, you drove to Christina’s and then drove across the border.

Drew: Because I was in Cincinnati with doing that job. I flew to New York. Was in New York for a bit, took the train to see Christina. Then went from there back to New York. And then I drove because I didn’t have a passport because of a combination of pandemic and Trump and trans.

Christina: The big three.

Drew: Yeah, but I had a New York state driver’s license that was an enhanced ID. I couldn’t fly to Canada, but I could drive across the border. I drove nine hours to meet you for the first time.

Elise: Wow.

Drew: And when I got to your place, you were working, you were on set. And so, I…

Elise: Right, right. You were in my bedroom before. Oh right. Yeah, I did this cute thing. Tell them the cute thing that I did.

Drew: You left me a bunch of little notes on the stairs leading up to your room. And then there was a little note on the bed and it was really, really cute.

Christina: That is so cute, I want to throw up a little bit, man. I feel a little queasy actually thinking about how cute that is.

Drew: It was really, it was real good.

Elise: Yeah. You sent me a video from my bedroom being, “Just waiting here to meet you in person.” Wild. What a time.

Drew: Were you nervous?

Elise: Was I nervous? Yeah. But I think that we had… This is also the thing about long distance or falling for people in other cities, as this podcast title is called, is that, I mean, not that you couldn’t do this in person, but you just get to communicate about everything before it happens. And so, we talked about our nerves. We talked about, we were both, “What if we don’t the way that we smell?” Weird things like that, just all of your weird neurosis or all of your weird insecurities, we just talked through every possible thing. And then it worked out pretty well I’d say.

Drew: I mean, I feel like it was drastically different than a scenario where let’s say we were flirting for a bit, a shorter period of time. Either we never FaceTimed or maybe we just FaceTimed a couple times. Because of the border being closed, by the time we met, I guess I had been more nervous about not being able to cross the border. I was so nervous the night before I drove. And that I’d get to the border and they’d be like, “Yes, Americans are allowed in now, but not the trans ones,” or just something. Or I had just done the paperwork wrong or just some border patrol person having an issue with me. And so, that’s what I was nervous about. But once I made it in, I was so relieved. Or getting COVID right beforehand. There was all, that was where so many of the nerves were. Once I was in your room. Also, you had just done this very cute thing that reminded me why I had driven nine hours and why I was excited to meet you. I wasn’t, I think…

Elise: All it takes is a couple Post-it notes, ladies.

Drew: I guess I just didn’t think the nerves that might exist otherwise if our first kiss wasn’t great. If the first time we had sex wasn’t great.

Elise: Sure.

Drew: If it was awkward for the first couple days, I wasn’t worried that any…

Elise: But it was awkward.

Drew: It was. Whoa.

Elise: For the first maybe two hours.

Drew: Sure.

Elise: And then we both acknowledged that the next day. Or we even acknowledged it in the moment. We were like, “This is weird.”

Drew: I think we acknowledged it in the moment.

Elise: We were like, “This is weird. You’re a person in front of me. You’ve lived in my phone for the last five months.”

Drew: But I had a lot of confidence that if any of those things, that it wouldn’t be a deal breaker. If the whole 10 days I was there had passed and we weren’t connecting, then it would be like, “Hmm, should we try that again? What was happening there?” But I don’t know. And that also, I think took away some of the nerves and allowed the weirdness to only last a couple hours instead. By the next day, we were so… I don’t know. It really felt kind of magical.

Elise: It was, yeah. We literally went away for the weekend, the following morning while…

Drew: Yeah.

Elise: Yeah. It’s funny. Because I’ve been on a lot of first dates, but not a lot of second dates. And I think there is something of, I don’t know, I always could find a reason to not see someone again, just based out of fear or whatever. Probably a lot of it was just like, I think you can tell, for me personally, within the first 20 minutes of meeting someone, if that person is going to be someone that you get along with or not. But there is something about, I don’t know, just more slowly getting to know someone that just shuts down that fear mechanism a little bit. For me, for me.

Christina: Yeah. I think that totally makes sense.

Elise: I mean speaking more broadly because we’re not the first queer women to do this.

Christina: No.

Elise: It is a stereotype.

Drew: As much as I love just talking about us, speaking more broadly, is it as simple as queer people historically have been in places or even Queer people, historically, have been in places, or even still—Generally, there will be more straight people in your city than queer people. So there are less options. Is that where it’s coming from, or is there something else going on that is causing this to be a stereotype?

Christina: I don’t know. I mean I do think of it as scarcity seems dramatic. But I do think it does come from partly because of that. If you are in a community that you don’t know a ton of queer people or you’re just like, “I feel a little bit unmoored here. I’m just going to reach out to queer people writ large. Who cares where they are?” I do think that’s part of it. I don’t know. I feel like straight people are just like, oh, how did we decide to get married? He was right there, and that’s it.

Drew: That’s true.

Christina: It is so much for me a thing of like, oh, maybe we are just a little bit more interested in taking that time and taking that long, slow build and knowing that, no, this isn’t impossible even if we’re X miles apart. We can still make this happen. I don’t know. Maybe straight people are just allergic to working hard for their relationship sometimes.

Elise: But I also think that more straight people started doing the long distance or the meeting people in other cities during the pandemic. I have maybe a couple straight friends, my token straight friends, and-

Drew: Brave.

Christina: Brave.

Elise: … one of them was basically doing the exact same thing. I was like it is interesting that during the pandemic, I don’t know, I was like, wow, what a beautiful way to be an ally to the queer community, is you guys are doing long distance now, too. But I don’t know if there’s a correlation there somehow, but I do think it’s interesting that more straight people did turn to broadening their dating geography over the pandemic.

Drew: Good for them.

Elise: Good for them. Do you think there’s something to that, though? Do you think that that’s … Or maybe I just know one straight person who did this?

Drew: No, no, no, no, no. No, I think that’s completely accurate. I’m just thinking about it.

Christina: No, I absolutely agree. I think there was like, certainly in the beginning of 2021, absolutely a genre of TikTok that was going to meet X person for the first time and it was always stitched with lesbians who are like, “Baby welcome to the community. This is what we do. This is how we ball.”

Elise: Maybe people just aren’t as attached to remaining in the same city anymore, like rules just went out the wayside and they’re like, “Okay, I don’t need to find someone who … ” I don’t know.

Drew: I mean I definitely, even more than before, was flirt, it didn’t make a difference. If I wasn’t going to meet anyone in person, like at least-

Christina: If I’m not leaving my house

Drew:.. especially in the early, early months, it truly doesn’t matter. It is interesting because I do think for the two of us, it was … Like there are queer people in LA and people in Toronto, and we could have pandemic dated them. I do think for the two of us, it was more about our emotional walls that we had up. I often joked before … I don’t know, before the pandemic, that a lot of the dating … Or even during the pandemic, a lot of the dating I was doing, I was pursuing people who were unavailable. That was a way of having walls up, of being like, okay, this person is probably not someone who will date me. It maybe was a distance, but it was something else. I don’t know. Maybe their entire personality and brand is that they don’t date. So to then be like, oh, that’s who I’m going to try to date is that’s not a great move. I do feel like the distance allowed, in our relationship … Like that was the thing, and that’s something that can be overcome by travel. I mean especially in 2019, some of the people I was trying to date, it just was so messy and it was because the people who were messy and the people who weren’t kind and weren’t giving me much, there was no stakes the same way that maybe during the pandemic initially flirting with someone in Toronto felt like there were no stakes. Then we were gradually able to work towards a place where there actually were stakes. I could get over some of my commitment issues that were spurred on from my previous relationships. So I do think that it makes sense that scarcity is a factor for queer people. I also think that, yeah, sure, it can be that it’s a nice way to ease in. Look, a lot of people, though, especially … I mean we talk about this all the time, especially on the lesbian side of things, people can be really timid and really scared to make moves and whatever. I think probably the lowering of the stakes of someone being far away does help with that stuff, too. So I think that also is maybe a factor for a lot of people.

Christina: That was my gut reaction too, is that if you feel like those stakes are not as high, then it necessarily makes you feel like, oh, then my walls don’t have to be as high in correlation to that because what am I really risking here, having a light flirtation every couple of weeks or every couple of days, until you suddenly realize, wow, we’ve been doing this for a year. Maybe we should hop on a quick call.

Elise: Wow. Have you ever fallen for someone in a different city, Christina?

Christina: No. I’ve entertained crushes in different cities, but I’ve done a proper falling for. I …

Elise: I …

Christina: … couldn’t say.

Elise: Couldn’t be me.

Drew: I do feel like the times where you’ve been like, “I have a crush on someone,” they’ve usually been in another city.

Christina: Yeah, that is usually …

Elise: Interesting.

Christina: Again, it is those similar walls and it is similarly, well, at the end of the day, I’ll be over here and they’ll be somewhere else. That makes me feel a little less stressed. But, yeah, could I successfully move that to the gorgeous, beautiful thing that you two have built together?

Elise: God …

Drew: I think it could.

Christina: Maybe. Maybe.

Drew: The other thing is that sometimes the connection, there are similar situations not virtually. I know that when I travel … Like my best one night stands have been when I was traveling. It was because it truly was I felt a similar sort of the stakes are low. It doesn’t go well, I’m like, “Well, I’ve got to get back to LA,” or wherever I was living. There is something about even that where you don’t have-

Elise: You’re never going to run into this person at a Walgreen’s.

Drew: Yeah, you don’t have the build-up time that we’re talking about when you fall for someone in another city virtually, but you do have a similar lowering of the stakes where it’s like this isn’t real, I’m on vacation, or even if you’re on a work trip, like I’m just in another place and it feels … When I think of the nightstands I had in the same city as me, it’s not so much. But when I think about the one nightstands I had while traveling, those are such good memories and I’m just like, “What great people. Am I going to see them again? Probably not. Do I want to?”

Elise: What great people.

Christina: What great people.

Drew: I really have very fond feelings about a handful of people who I had that experience with.

Christina: I mean I think part of that is just being … When you’re on vacation brain, you’re just like, “Who am I?” I can be a different person because I’m on vacation or I’m not where I actually live. What are the repercussions to my actions?” and just vibe.

Elise: Do you think too that there’s something about dating within your own city, you feel as though you’re attached to older versions of yourself in that city, too? If you’re looking outside of your current geographical location, there’s something a little more freeing about, I don’t know, not being attached to the past or not being attached to past versions of yourself.

Christina: I definitely think that would be part of it. I’ve never really thought about it in that way, though. That is interesting. But it makes a gut emotional sense, like I left her behind, old Christina. I don’t know her anymore.

Elise: Old Christina.

Christina: Who is she?

Drew: I also … In talking about this and thinking about our relationship, distance …

Elise: Makes the heart grow fonder. Is that where you’re going to say?

Drew: Well, no, there are opportunities for romance that … I mean, look, we’re raised on romantic movies, romantic books, whatever, that need conflict. So part of romance as a genre, generally, is conflict. And so, the conflict can be, “Oh, this person’s married. Oh, this person is a nightmare to me,” and those aren’t necessarily as fun as … I mean they can be fun in their own ways, but they’re not as capital R romantic as, oh, this person lives far away.

Elise: Justin Trudeau closed the border.

Christina: It’s the longing.

Drew: Yeah, or it’s the, oh, we only have one night before I have to get back on the plane. Those are both such great experiences of romance. If we had been dating early months, yeah, I could have gotten you a surprise gift or something, but that wouldn’t be as fun as sending you a book that I really loved with a little note in it.

Elise: That is true.

Drew: When you sent me … Elise makes these incredible collage cards. When you sent me the first one that you sent me, it was like … I feel like that … Recently we had some friends ask, “When did you know that you were in love?” and I didn’t really have a good answer. Now that I think about it, yes, we had to meet first before … Love is so many different things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Elise: Sure, sure, sure.

Drew: But, yeah, I do think that when that happened, I had always been such romantic and I’d always been a romantic towards the people I was with. I was always doing gestures and I always got so much joy from that. But I don’t think I ever really was with someone else who was romantic in that way. There are lots of ways to be romantic, and it’s fine, whatever, but I was like, oh, it feels really good to have this returned. It feels really good to get a surprise card that’s beautiful and personal and …

Elise: It’s like a little snail mail.

Drew: Yeah. It’s like that shit is … I don’t know, I’m not proud of it, but sometimes you just want to be in a story that theoretically would end with one of us dying from tuberculosis. Those aren’t healthy tendencies necessarily, but a little bit just … I feel like mail is a great, safe, non-death-related thing that I could take from that genre.

Christina: If you can’t have consumption, you can have snail mail.

Drew: Exactly, exactly.

Christina: That’s a gorgeous way of thinking about it, I think, absolutely.

Elise: Oh, man. That first one that I sent you two, I think I had to resend it because the original, we thought, got lost, because it had been a month or two, because this was during the time when everything was slow down-

Christina: Post was slow.

Elise: Yeah, post was slow. But that was what it was like back in the old days, waiting for a letter. I don’t know. There’s something interesting, though, about the transition then between that and real life.

Drew: For sure.

Elise: Not to say that the other thing is not real life, but it reminds me of … I had this friend back in the day who was a singer on cruise ships, and she met her boyfriend there. They had this cruise ship relationship where they were both working. They both had all of their meals supplied for them. They both were traveling the world and off sailing the seas together and never really in one place for too long. They would always be in the honeymoon phase on the ship.Then as soon as they would dock and go back to their apartments, the relationship would always fall apart. They did this multiple times. I think there is something to be said of needing to also ground the long-distance posts or cross-country flirtation in a bit of reality too, so that it can grow into something and shift and change and evolve.

Drew: I think it really helped that our first in-person meeting, you were working a lot of that week. So I think we did go away and we did have a couple nights that were honestly pretty magical in nature and beautiful and just, “This is really good.” But then most of the rest of that trip, you were busy and there was a little bit of real life thrown in. I don’t think that was a bad thing. I think that was good for us after this long drawn out.

Christina: Well, I also think, as you guys mentioned before, talking about how are we going to share space together, doing logistics conversations like that before actually meeting in person was probably super helpful, because I think it is well, and good, and lovely, and romantic to just trust that our connection will get us through this. But if you are a person who does not want to be spoken to in the morning, you got to kind of holler at someone, and be like, just to be clear, I don’t want you to have to feel that you are driving me insane by doing this thing that I hate.

Elise: Especially when you have as many neuroses as me.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, I just love two logic brain girlies getting together and saying like, well, let’s sit down and talk through these logistics. Let’s be serious here.

Elise: When do you eat breakfast in the morning?

Drew: Oh, Elise has a Virgo rising.

Christina: Oh, yeah. That’s good stuff.

Elise: She’s a real present Virgo. Let’s just say that.

Christina: It’s a present sign. If it’s in there, it really pulls its weight I said. Do we have any other thoughts on long distance relationships, or not even relationships, the beginning falling for someone?

Elise: Falling for people in different cities.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: So catchy. I don’t know. I mean, I definitely recommend it.

Christina: Yeah. This is a very pro visiting episode for our listeners, I would say.

Elise: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christina: Hey, could be you. You guys could be a nepotism baby on another podcast somehow.

Elise: Wow. Fantastic.

Christina: That’s the dream.

Elise: I love being a nepotism baby.

Drew: I will say that something I’m also grateful for is, I don’t know if you know this, but at some point Elise and I are going to be very rich and famous both of us.

Christina: I’m counting on you guys for a beach house. Let’s be clear.

Drew: There you go. I do think that long distance in general, but long distance in the beginning also is very much determined by money because of being able to travel to each other and sending gifts and things like that. I do think that I’m glad we were at where we were at, where neither of us were so broke that we could never see each other. Going back to the reality thing, Elise has a roommate, who is honestly just the loveliest person and she’s great. There would be a different conversation if, oh, instead of going away to nature for two days at a small little cabin on whatever on the lake. Instead, it was like, oh, we’re going to go on this trip together and it’s going to be this thing. There could be a sort of unreality that I think would be harder to get over. Whereas there are more logistics when you have financial boundaries. And so I do think that I’m grateful for that and I do think it can be hard, and it was something I thought about. There definitely were times where I was flirting with people in the past before the pandemic where they lived far away.I mean, it’s one thing to rent a car and drive nine hours and take on that expense. You can’t rent a car in New York and then drop it off in Toronto. So I had to rent a car for a week. It was a financial investment.

Christina: It was.

Drew: I only was able to do that because we had been flirting on Instagram and Twitter for a year and then FaceTiming for an additional nine months or something, six months, nine months.

Elise: Five, five.

Drew: Five months? Okay, whatever.

Elise: Even five months seems wild.

Drew: Five months was so long. It felt like six years. So I was confident enough, whereas there had been people who I had had little flirtations with in the past where if I was rich, I would’ve taken a trip based on only the potential for vibes or whatever.

Christina: Potential for good vibes.

Drew: So that is something to say. Some people have less money than me and some people have more money than me, and that probably does impact how feasible some of this is.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: But if it takes you two years, you know can save some money to rent that car.

Christina: There you go. You got keep it. Got to keep it that whole time. Yeah. I think that’s a good final note to always consider, the Benjamins baby. Speaking of Benjamins, does anybody have a crush? What?

Drew: First I was just going to say, but now that we’re in a real relationship, now we can get rid, if the world wants to make us rich and famous.

Elise: Yeah, that would be great. That would be great. It would be great. If anyone else would like to make us nepotism babies.

Christina: I’m banking on YouTube, for real.

Elise: You’re invited to the beach house anytime, Christina.

Christina: Thank you.

Drew: We can do crushes. We could talk about some crushes.

Christina: Let’s talk about our little crushes. Drew, who’s your crush of the week?

Drew: My crush of the week is Jinkx Monsoon.

Christina: Smart.

Drew: I was lucky enough to interview Jinkx. That interview came out two days ago and it was one of those kind of dream interviews. It was really lovely. Jinkx is an incredible drag queen as she was just named Queen of All Queens by RuPaul’s Drag Race Allstars All Winners, but she also was the first drag performer I ever really saw. I definitely took some time in the piece to gush about Jinkx as a talented drag queen.

Drew: I didn’t do a lot of thirsting, one might say, because I try to be, what I’m looking for, professional when I’m in an interview.

Christina: Oh, heard of it.

Drew: But now I’ll also throw that in where I’m also have a huge crush on her and it was lovely to chat with her. Yeah. She’s just one of those queer figures in my life that’s just special, and I’m glad that I got to meet her over Zoom and I think we’re best friends now. I think that’s how an interview works.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: I think next time I’m in Portland or whatever, we’ll just hang out.

Christina: Give her a ring-a-ling.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Elise, go.

Elise: Me. Okay.

Christina: Yeah. Tell us your crush.

Elise: Well, we’ve been watching Queer As Folk, the reboot recently and I must say Johnny Sibilly. I think most of my crushes for most of my life have less been like this person has a crush and more like, I would like to be this person.

Drew: Gay classic.

Elise: Vintage, a gay classic.

Christina: Vintage.

Elise: Specifically his thighs. Am I allowed to say that?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Thighs are great.

Elise: So that’s where I’m at and thank you for letting me share.

Drew: You want his thighs is what you’re saying.

Elise: Yes, yes. On me, but as me. As me, not on top. As my body, but as him.

Christina: Right. Scaled appropriately.

Elise: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. That would be great. Yeah. Yeah. His style, all the earrings, everything just impeccable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. My crush of the week, I had the thrill, the pleasure of introducing my dear roommate and friend Chrissy to the film Bend It Like Beckham for the first time. She’d never bent.

Elise: Wow.

Christina: Like Beckham or anyone really.

Elise: Wow.

Christina: I mean, obviously a classic, a movie I love. I hadn’t seen it in a while and I forgot just how delightful it was. Not only for the obvious gay energy, betwixt Parminder and Keira Knightley, but the family stuff is so beautifully realized and it is just a delightful time to watch a bunch of hotties play soccer and love their family and try to have it all. Honestly, the early aughts filming of it all, there is a CGI Photoshop experience in the beginning that looks so bad. It’s one of my favorite thing that’s ever been committed to film, and it’s just a delightful, charming film and I was really glad to revisit it and really glad to watch someone just cry anew over the love of family and friendship.

Elise: Beautiful.

Drew: When you said this, I didn’t know that your crush was going to be the movie as a whole.

Christina: The movie as a whole.

Drew: I was trying to remember what mom is in that you would be crush. It’s definitely not either of the two girls.

Christina: Parminder, I have had a love for. I mean, she was also on ER, long standing love of my life. The television show ER, I do think she’s very beautiful and her hair looks incredible, but yeah, just like the film writ large is a banger, and if you can introduce it to somebody who’s never seen it, do so. It’s a damn delight.

Elise: I saw the musical Bend It Like Beckham once upon a time.

Christina: Wow.

Drew: There was a musical?

Elise: There sure was. Yeah.

Drew: Wow.

Elise: Was it good? Not particularly, but it’s definitely something to experience full body.

Christina: I bet. I bet.

Drew: Wow. Well Elise, thank you for being here with us.

Elise: Thank you for letting me sleep my way to the top. This has been an honor and a privilege.

Drew: Do you want to tell people where they can find you?

Elise: They can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Bauman, Elise. B-A-U-M-A-N, E-L-I-S-E. That was my last name immediately followed by my first name.

Christina: Keeping them on their toes.

Drew: Your first name was in the New York Times crossword today, which I now do every day because it’s the thing that started happening. And I was like, oh my God, it’s my girlfriend.

Elise: Hey.

Christina: Wow.

Elise: Love to be a clue. Not me specifically.

Drew: It was the name Elise.

Elise: We haven’t made it there yet. I’m not a nepotism baby to that level yet.

Christina: In my mind, it was about you.

Elise: Thank you.

Christina: Can’t tell that for me.

Drew: You should sleep with the guy who edits the crosswords.

Elise: That’s really how you make it.

Drew: Yeah.

Elise: Great.

Drew: Short. Something like that?

Christina: Will something with an S that is Short or Shorts.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Cool knowledge we have here.

Drew: I’m really ending the season with a bang.

Christina: Crosswords out.

Drew: This is the end of the season, but we will still be doing some fun mailbag episodes. So send in your questions if you’re an A plus member and we will release those randomly because it’s fun to do.

Christina: It’s fun to keep you on your toes. Don’t forget about us.

Drew: And you can also comment and tell us what guests you might want to see in future seasons because that could be a fun thing.

Christina: Who do you want to hear from and about what?

Drew: We’d love to hear from you. Yeah. Yeah. Great, solid, end of season. Very confident end of a season.

Christina: Drop the mic.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Wait Is This A Date, and you can email us at WaitIsThisADate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Manya Dar and this podcast was produced, edited, and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok at Draw_Gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter at C_GraceT and on Instagram at Christina_GraceT, and you can find Autostraddle of course at Autostraddle.

Drew: And you can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com. The reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment hurriedly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on the case here. We don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew:I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (Voice Memo): Being in love is so embarrassing. There’s like no way to talk about it, that isn’t like… [sighs] I guess there are worse things to be than embarrassing.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 209: Bottoming with Chingy

Let’s make some noise for the bottoms in the house! (It’s me, the bottom in the house.) Bottom Culture has become quite a Thing™ Online as of late! But what does it really mean to be a bottom? Why has the culture decided bottoming is synonymous with being afraid to ask for what you want? And how does one go about deciding if they like bottoming?!

With all these questions rattling around our minds, demanding answers, Drew and I knew there was only one person we could go to for a rounded, passionate conversation about bottoming: The Gay Chingy AKA Chingy Nea, AKA The Bottom Supreme. Chingy is one of the best people I know writing and tweeting today, and as a bottom myself, I am honored to call her my leader. Chingy helps us tease out what it means to be a bottom, why she hates “smol bean” bottom culture, your body as hole, and your body as whole. It is a really beautiful conversation, if I do say so myself! Please know that I am aware that I say “gorgeous” approximately three thousand times this episode, and I am seeking help for my condition. (The condition is speaking like 57 year old white gay man.)

And! This week’s game involves me guessing if the complicated plots Drew describes belong to a movie or a dream she had circa 2006. It is hard!

SHOW NOTES

+ Read Chingy’s Bottom Manifesto, follow her on Twitter and IG!

+Here is a list of all the films that Drew used in her game:

The Seventh Seal (1937)
Bringing Up Baby (1938)
Pierrot le Fou (1965)
Black Swan (2010)

+Watch Anna Faris do the best work of her career in Smiley Face!

+Let Shohreh Aghdashloo talk you to sleep while dressed as Chrisjen Avasarala from The Expanse because you deserve that.

+Cindy Wilson of The B52s is quite hot and frankly? “Love Shack” still whips!

+Robert Mitchum, stone cold fox.

EPISODE

Chingy: I’ve just been bottoming since I was, I don’t know, as far back as I can remember.

Drew: Cue Rags to Riches from Goodfellas.

Chingy: As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a bottom, no, but kind of

[intro plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the one, the only the biggest question of our times: Wait, Is This a Date?

Drew: And, wow, I really just froze up there.

Christina: I was like, oh shit, I was supposed to say something! [laughs]

Drew: I’m really quick to the banter, my brain just… The truth is that I was reading over my game notes, which we’re not at yet because we still have to introduce ourselves. So, I’m going to try to stay focused on one task at a time.

Christina: Focus up!

Drew: My name is Drew Gregory, I am a writer for Autostraddle, and a filmmaker, and a trans woman.

Christina: Hi, my name is Christina Tucker, forgot my last name for a hot minute, no big deal. I am also a writer at Autostraddle and other places on the internet, a podcaster, a gay black woman. That’s kind of it, dog, that’s me.

Drew: I love it. Okay, now we-

Christina: Now the game.

Drew: Can we play the game?

Christina: Can we get to the game? I can tell you’re excited, I can tell you’re just vibrating.

Drew: So, I’ve been keeping a dream journal since 2007, and the premise of this game is-

Christina: I did not know this about you!

Drew: Yes, it’s not as up to date now, I used to write down all my dreams and now it’s only when something really sticks. But, the premise of this game is, am I describing the plot of a dream I had when I was an adolescent, or am I describing the plot of a movie that I loved when I was an adolescent?

Christina: Oh boy, okay.

Drew: So, the way it will go is I’ll always describe it as a dream and in the first person. So, if it was Star Wars, I’d be like, I’m in space and I’m fighting as part of a rebellion, and there’s an evil guy who’s wearing a black robot suit and it turns out he’s my father. That’s how I’ll describe it, the way we describe dreams, but sometimes it will be a dream, sometimes it’ll be from a movie. Ready?

Christina: I’m something, I don’t know that I’m ready, but let’s rock. Let’s see what I can do here.

Drew: Okay, I’m on a beach and I see this weird man dressed in black. He tells me that he’s Death and we can play a game to decide if I live or if he takes me. I manage to escape, but everywhere I go, people are sick and I feel like Death is still following me.The only happy part is when I meet a theater troupe and they’re a lot of fun.

Christina: This,I think, is a dream.

Drew: This would be Ingmar Bergman’s The Seventh Seal from 1957.

Christina: This is going to be a real gotcha on CT’s classic movie knowledge, because what I know that Drew, in your adolescence, was not doing was watching movies that I’m going to recognize. At this point, I’m kind of hoping that I’ve seen none of them. I think that’ll be more fun for me.

Drew: The second one, I’m meeting with my family and some Italian American gangsters. One of the gangsters demands that I give over some money, but my family and I managed to escape. We run away through all this snowy terrain, on the road I meet an actress and connect with her. We end up in a suburb. I think we’re going to start a new life together until she takes me to a big mansion, and I realize it belongs to the gangster. It was all a trap, the gangster arrives and there’s a confrontation. I kill him, the dream ends with the actress performing a musical number.

Christina: Is this a film?

Drew: This would be a dream I had in 2008.

Christina: Okay, wow. Boy, yeah, I guess I have to remember that it’s 2000, it’s old school Drew brain. That’s what I have to remember.

Drew: Also like, what movies was I watching at the time and how much did that impact my dreams?

Christina: Well, yeah, clearly quite a lot!

Drew: A fun fact is that I was actually, I didn’t include this because I thought this would give it away, but the gangster was Tony Soprano because I was watching The Sopranos in 2008. So, that’s a fun little fact. Okay, next one, I have an important assignment, but this hot girl shows up and starts distracting me. I want to be with her, but I also really need to get my work done, so I tell her to leave. She keeps following me. All of a sudden, a leopard appears in my room and I have to spend the rest of the dream trying to catch the leopard. I’m still really anxious, I never finish my work, but at least the girl is hot.

Christina: This has to be a dream of yours, this has to be a Drew dream.

Drew: This is Howard Hawks’ Bringing Up Baby from 1938.

Christina: No, but that’s a dream of yours, that is the most Drew dream I’ve ever heard. Now at this point, I’m just going to be rewriting movie history, to suit my whims.

Drew: Great, I love that. Okay, I’m at a party and I don’t really like anyone there. Finally, I see this girl, I used to have a crush on and we decide to leave together. We go to her house, but are chased off by this group of men who are trying to kill the girl. We end up on a beach and it seems like we’re going to be okay until the men find us. She ends up being into this other guy, so I take cartoonish dynamite and decide to blow myself up

Christina: Movie.

Drew: This is! This is Jean Luc Goddard’s Pierrot le Fou, from 1965.

Christina: Have not seen, but that sounds like a ding dang movie to me.

Drew: Great, I love it. There’s a narration describing an odd boat like structure that’s impossible to destroy. I’m going on a retreat near the structure, the retreat is sort of theater related, sort of religious. I have a crush on this girl at the retreat, but she has a boyfriend. Amid the performances and rituals, there’s a lot of drama between me and this girl and her boyfriend, it ends with me alone. There has been a sequence revealing that the boat structure is impossible to destroy because a mechanical arm fixes it in the night.

Christina: That could be anything in so many ways, I’m going to say movie again, why not?

Drew: It is a dream from 2011, that did have narration from someone else, you know, it happens!

Christina: This is really good promo to have a dream journal, because I feel like it would be fun if I could remember my dreams in this manner.

Drew: Nobody really likes when you describe your dreams to them. I do though, and I’m your friend, so if you want to write down your dreams and tell me, I would love to hear about them.

Christina: Okay, that’s really nice to hear.

Drew: I have two more.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: I’m in a beautiful garden with a group of friends, we all seem to be waking up from being drugged. We’re forced to shower in an acid that drains pigment and we end up being blonde and blue-eyed. The people in charge start training us to kill, it turns out this place is being run by a crazy dictator, I resist getting totally brainwashed. There’s this girl there I have a crush on and I convince her to escape with me, while escaping I get shot and killed, but the girl gets away. When she leaves the prison, she realizes we’re in the middle of a forest so there’s nowhere to go.

Christina: Movie.

Drew: That would be the first dream in my dream journal from, I said, “2007.” It’s actually 2006.

Christina: Wow.

Drew: I always thought it was interesting that I die in the dream, but the other person continues on. But now, there’s some weird gender stuff going on there, and I’m going to have to think about that one for a while.

Christina: Definitely do that.

Drew: Okay, I have one more.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: I’ve been given the chance to be a ballerina, my mom insists I won’t be able to do it. There’s this other girl in the show who I think is hot, but I’m worried she’s going to replace me. I’m struggling in rehearsal, but end up leaving with the girl, we hook up. It’s really hot, but I feel myself losing control, we go back to the dance show. My body seems to be morphing into something else, I’m worried that I’m going to mess up.

Christina: This is a movie.

Drew: So, Black Swan.

Christina: Yes, that is Black Swan, certainly.

Drew: Have you seen Black Swan? That was one I thought you’ve seen.

Christina: I have seen Black Swan, I… Fun fact, I went on a date with a man to see Black Swan.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Just straight things I did.

Drew: What was that like?

Christina: Weird, it was weird.

Drew: Did you like the movie? Did he like the movie?

Christina: I think, I had already seen it, I think I was like, “Let’s go see it again.” I think, I was very pro Black Swan, and for straight heterosexual reasons, certainly.

Drew: Sure, okay.

Christina: And, he was like, “That was weird.” And I was like, “Oh well, we’re not going to continue to date.”

Drew: Wow, well I wish him the best, I hope he’s somewhere doing well. Thank you for playing this game with me.

Christina: Wow, I’m so glad I went two for however many we did on that.

Drew: Not terrible.

Christina: Not terrible.

Drew: You did better than Elise did when I wanted to see if this was a functional game that could work, and she was my guinea pig. So, she only got one right.

Christina: Fair enough.

Drew: Should we move on to our main topic of the week?

Christina: Let’s get into it, let’s get this special guest in.

Drew: Well, I want to first say that our main topic of the week is bottoming, so we could only have one very special guest.

Christina: It’s only one person.

Drew: Can you please introduce yourself?

Chingy: Hi, I’m Chingy Nea, otherwise known as The Gay Chingy. I am a Writer, Filmmaker, and gasian leather dyke muppet. I am also America’s number one bottom.

Christina: Yes, I think when we were discussing topics and we’re like, “We could talk about bottoming and there’s literally only one person we could have on the pod to do so, there’s only one person who is quite literally the Supreme.”

Chingy: Thank you for recognizing, it feels good to have your greatness recognized, thank you

Christina: Yes, and you’ve done great work, and here we are recognizing it.

Drew: I want to know when you feel like you became America’s greatest bottom. When was that a word and a label and an identity that you really held onto?

Chingy: Well, so I usually just say, “I’m The Bottom Supreme.” Because, who cares about America?

Drew: Sure.

Christina: Fair enough.

Chingy: Yeah, I think that I always was really good at bottoming, but then in 2017 or something, I went to a play party that was just for fem top sadists beating me up for six to seven hours straight, and it was only me, and I was like, “Oh, I’m the best that’s ever been.” And then, I think from there, I just kept escalating and being, wow, I’m so fun to watch. Wow, I’m so entertaining as a bottom, this is wow, everybody who gets to top me is so lucky. And, it just went from there, I think, and then I wrote an article called I’m A Much Better Bottom Than You. Here’s Why. It was kind of a manifesto, it was a bottom manifesto.

Christina: Yes, can confirm.

Chingy: And, many people have told me, “It’s changed how they look at sex.” And, I like that a lot. It’s the one article on my website that I’ve written there. I’ve written at Vice, Teen Vogue, Vulture— Autostraddle was the first place I wrote, actually. But yeah, that is the one blog on my website, if you want to check it out.

Christina: I love a strong brand, I love knowing a brand, and I think that’s really gorgeous, just, brand management of your own bottomy yourself. I think, that’s really beautiful to see.

Chingy: Thank you, I got my first writing opportunity at Autostraddle because I was writing about being a bottom, and being poly, and being really deep into being a leather dyke. And since then, I’ve started to write about a bunch of other things, but being bottom supreme just kind of is the one through line of it all.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: I also feel like you’re a very active bottom and also in the way that you write about, and talk about, and I presume experience bottoming that you’re very active. Whereas, I think there’s a lot of the queer community, maybe, especially the lesbian community, that maybe thinks of bottoming as… I don’t know-

Chingy: Passivity.

Christina: Mm-hmm (Affirmative).

Drew: Yeah.

Chingy: Yeah, I often say that there’s a lot less bottoms than people think are bottoms. I think there’s a difference between being a bottom and just not knowing or asking for what you want. I think those are two entirely different things that people conflate.

Christina: I would have to agree, I also think the way that you talk about bottoming is, I mean, let’s just say it, so much less annoying than the way so many people talk about being a bottom or identify with bottom culture. Because, I do feel that what a lot of people are saying explicitly or non explicitly is just, I am lazy and do not care to do any sort of action, activity, et-cetera, I would like things done to me. And, if I have to seek that out in any way, that hurts my feelings. And, you are so good and so powerful at being, these are the things that I want, bring them to me and I will rock your world. That is gorgeous to me.

Chingy: Thank you, I mean, that’s what you have to do to be good at just something, you have to put yourself out there and try and make mistakes and get hurt a little bit, and, I don’t know, learn from it.

Christina: I think that’s a good message, frankly.

Chingy: I’ve just been bottoming since I was, I don’t know, as far back as I can remember. [laughs]

Drew: Cue “Rags to Riches” from Goodfellas.

Chingy: Yeah, as far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a bottom. No, but kind of, when I was 13 or 14, I was already looking at BDSM websites and lesbian BDSM websites. So, I wasn’t under any delusions about what I was about, I was having girls I dated in high school choke me out, I knew what I wanted. And so, that level of awareness has just given me a long time to know what I want and figure out how to get it.

Christina: Gorgeous, Drew, give me your feelings on bottoming.

Drew: Well, I’m actually really excited to talk about this because I feel like in 2019 when I was on my, I’m single and queer for the first time, I need to figure out who I am and what I want. I wrote an essay for Autostraddle about trying to figure out if I was a bottom and just really wanting to be told what to do, and not knowing what I wanted. That actually includes an anecdote that I’m still not embarrassed by the inclusion of it in the piece, but I’m still not… I don’t know, basically Chingy set me up on a date, and I think it’s the one interaction that I can think of in my dating history where I just feel like I was exhausting because I was so unsure of what I wanted, and who I was. And, the person was so generous and so kind, and I just didn’t know what to do.

And then, I was embarrassed and so just never really talked to them again. I’m usually on the other side of that, because for a long time I was topping and I did have a lot of interactions with people who didn’t really know what they wanted, and I provided a lot of emotional space to help them discover their queerness, and their relationship to their bodies, and that’s fine. And, some of those experiences were better than others, but I do notice how kind of… I don’t know, it’s not necessarily what you want when you’re trying to fuck. So, I feel a little bit away about it, but I think I had to learn that it wasn’t about someone else telling me what I wanted and that I had to really take the time and have the experiences to discover what it was I wanted for myself.

And, I don’t know what I identify as top, bottom, switch wise, but I do know that I am now bottoming in ways that I never did and never really thought I would, or at least never thought I would until I had bottom surgery. And then I was like, oh, and then I think I’ll feel better about it and that did not need to happen. And, I have learned to appreciate the things that my current body can do. And, I don’t know, it’s really exciting to have sex now where I am seeking my own pleasure. And then as a result, I think, being better at giving pleasure, because I’m more in touch with myself.

Christina: Yeah, I feel like I remember when we started becoming friends and I was like, “Oh, I’m a bottom.” And you were like, “Oh well, here’s my feelings about bottoming, here are my feelings about being a top, here are my feelings about being a switch.” And I was like, “Wow, that is so many feelings to have about any topic.” Of course, as we grew in our friendship, I said, “Well, baby, that’s just Drew, Drew just got feelings and ways to think about them.” And, that’s gorgeous.

Drew: But, it’s something you have to learn from doing, from fucking. You can’t study your way to figuring out… I mean, not that it can’t be an important part of the process to think, and to learn, and to do solo research, and I certainly was sticking things up my ass by myself during that year, but there is just something to be said about having more sex.

Christina: Wow, you said it first.

Chingy: Drew, I’m slightly remembering this was… Was it one of my exes?

Drew: It was, yeah.

Chingy: That’s what I thought, okay, I know who it is, all right.

Christina: Wow, and the brand keeps on branding, this is beautiful,

Chingy: But yeah, I think a lot of people do think it is someone telling you what you want and that’s not how it works. Even in power play and BDSM bottoming, you have to have your own framework of knowledge of what it is you need and want, otherwise it’s not going to be a healthy dynamic or relationship, or it’s not going to be beneficial for anyone. No, one’s going to get what they want if one person doesn’t know what they want, and the way to learn that is to fuck around a lot.

Drew: What about you Christina, what’s your relationship to being a bottom?

Christina: You know that I just am one, it was one of all the things that I was very stressed out about around coming out and coming to terms of the fact that, baby, you’re just a dyke, it’s not that deep. You don’t have to be this stressed out, you are just gay. The one thing that I was like, oh, naturally I am a bottom. That was always just very much a part of it, I did not feel any way about identifying that way or feeling stressed out about it. I was just like, yeah, no, I am a person who is constantly very rigid and has a lot of things that I would like to be done in the exact way that I would like them to be done. And in this space, it is very relaxing for me to not have to worry about that at all, because I just need a break sometimes! Truly a girl just needs to let go every once in a while. And, the best way that I have found for me to do that is for someone to be like, bitch, let go.

Chingy: Yeah, exactly, I personally can be kind of a control freak sometimes in my life, and I’m like, oh, I need everything to be this exact way. But then, when I’m submitting or bottoming, I can just be, okay, I don’t really have any control over this situation because I’ve chosen to give that over and I’m just going to do what I’m told and have what’s done to me, done to me. And, if I need it to stop, it can stop, but I’m not going to stop it.

Christina: It’s nice, I don’t have to have a thought in my head at this moment.

Chingy: Exactly.

Christina: I don’t have to think about what’s coming next for one time in my life, because I truly wake up every day and I’m like, all right, what are the things you’re thinking about today? What are the things that need to be done? It’s very exhausting to be in my own brain, and it’s a nice way for me to take a break from my own brain.

Chingy: And, I think that’s really a gift that tops give, and I feel like not enough people appreciate that. Some people just think of tops as experienced machines and just someone who will give you this exciting, kinky, or sexual experience you want. But also, they require aftercare or appreciation for what they’re doing. It’s a lot to run something, which is why we don’t want to do it when we’re in the-

Christina: That’s why we want a goddamn break.

Chingy: Exactly, people talk a lot about a top shortage, and I don’t think there is one. I think, because people think there’s a shortage of tops, they see tops when they can find them as a means to an end and don’t appreciate them as full people. I don’t know, I have a whole thing about how bottoms objectify tops in a way that isn’t sexy.

Christina: I love this, the personhood of tops, we need to be respecting it, we need to be seeing it, we need to raise it to the heavens and say, thank you, thank you for this experience.

Chingy: Yeah, tops rule, I love tops. I couldn’t be a bottom without my tops, my tops couldn’t be bottoms without me, or whatever the other way. You know what I mean?

Christina: I do know what you mean, but I do love that your bottom supremacy just said everyone is bottoms, it’s all I can say.

Chingy: Yeah, I’m an alpha bottom, it’s interesting because as I am getting older, I’m finding myself able to submit for less and less people, but bottoming I can always do. And, also one time, the other day, someone called me a switch and anytime someone calls me a switch, it pisses me off. It makes me so angry, there is one solid part of who I am and it is that I am a bottom. And they’re like, “But, you fist people.” And I’m like, “So what?” You can bottom from fisting people, my hand is literally being devoured, I don’t know what you want from me. I don’t know.

Christina: I do love the idea of being, how dare you call me that slur?

Chingy: That slur, yeah.

Christina: A switch? How could you? [laughs]

Drew: I do think it’s interesting to sort of separate these identities in ways of fucking from specific sexual acts. And, I think that’s something that maybe is more acceptable in lesbian spaces than in gay male spaces.

Chingy: I think, totally.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: It can mean very different things, I think that was also something that I was struggling with when I was first trying to figure this out was, well, if I’m getting fucked, then I know what that would be. But if I’m not, then what does that mean? That means that I’m topping? I’m also not fucking anyone with my dick, so I don’t know, I think I was really trying to figure that out. And, as I’ve just had more sex and had a wider variety of experiences, I do feel like, oh, it’s been more energetic. I mean, not to say that I also haven’t started getting fucked, and started fucking, because I got a strap on and was like, even though I have a dick, I can get a dick that I actually enjoy using.

So, I think it’s interesting to think about the fact that I was able to start bottoming fully once I actually started topping, as opposed to… I feel like my sex life in 2019 was very, the chaos of it, the drama of it, and the experience of just bodies was what sex was, as opposed to really about pleasure, or about acts, or about orgasm. And, not that that’s not okay, and queer sex can be so many different things. But, I do think that some of me being, queer sex can be so many different things, was in part because I wasn’t really having the full amounts of the kind of sex that I wanted to be having, or wanted to be having and didn’t even realize I wanted to be having.

Christina: I think, experience is at the end of the day, the one thing that is always going to help you figure out how you fit in or how you identify without having those kinds of experiences and putting yourself in new and fun situations. It’s kind of, this is all going to be very theoretical until the thing happens, my guy, sometimes you just got to go for it.

Chingy: Yeah, I mean, for me, my genitals are cool, holes are cool, orgasms are cool, but for me coming from a background where I was always engaged in SM, and DS, and all that, bottoming just naturally. I think, this is true for also leather men, I think it’s just true for leather people, in generally, is that when you are doing BDSM or engaging in fetish, there’s just this decentralization of genitals as part of the sexual experience. And, it’s just about ideas, feelings, and concepts, and your body as a whole, which is your body as a hole and your body as a whole.

Christina: Ayooo!

Chingy: So, when I describe myself as a whole, I am energetically a hole, I am a black hole, I’m the black hole from High Life. Just pulling in all this horny energy, and there’s cum in High Life, but there’s also other things in High Life.

Drew: Right.

Christina: I think, something that’s so beautiful about queer sex is, it is sex and that is cool, but it’s also a theoretical framework and everybody should really get into that. I think, a little bit of thinking never goes wrong.

Chingy: Thinking in the right place can be real sexy.

Christina: Yeah, thinking in the wrong place, like, online? Online is a bad place to think, don’t think online, don’t do that.

Chingy: [laughs]

Drew: Thinking with another person. I mean, it’s interesting to think back to the experience I was talking about earlier. I do think that it circles back to two things we were talking about, one in which I was being, “This person’s a top, they’re going to take care of it, and I don’t have to bring anything to the table here, and that was one thing.” And, the other was that I jumped into it too quickly, I wasn’t at a place where I think if I had gotten to know the person better, maybe it would’ve worked better, and I wanted to be sluttier and more just, oh, I don’t care if I know someone and I can just do whatever.

But, I also think there’s a difference between having casual sex and doing things that are totally new to you. And, maybe this is starting to shift, but I still think that in casual sex I’ll be more of a top still. And, in my relationship and in sex with people where I have a connection to them. And, it’s really just a trust, and that could happen with someone quicker, it doesn’t have to be, oh, we’re in a relationship. But, just having that trust and building that trust before trying new things or doing things that feel vulnerable. It now makes so much sense and seems so obvious, but at the time I was, why isn’t my desire to learn how to bottom working as I am trying it out with people who I don’t actually know as people.

Chingy: I mean, bottoming is just, I don’t want to say inherently, but it’s a lot more vulnerable than topping is a lot of the time, or just not even just topping, but just fucking someone else. It’s easy to just get someone else off when you don’t have to worry about where your mind is or where you can just do the motion. And theoretically, you can do that with bottoming too, but if you are trying to be really slutty and energetically open, that takes trust. And, if you’re willing to give that trust to someone new, it can be complicated. I mean, whenever I’m having sex with someone for the first time, I usually can’t cum if I’m bottoming for them, it just takes forever because I’m just, I don’t know you that well, and I’m not super comfortable, but I’m having fun and I don’t really care about cumming. It doesn’t matter, it’s not about the destination, it is very much about just the entire experience, I think.

Christina: I wonder about how much of actual bottoming and actual sex that we are having, or not to brag, that would be me. But, this also this cultural space we’re in where everybody’s culturally identifying as a bottom, which I get and understand and love. But sometimes I’m like, but what do you mean? You’re making a meme, so what do you mean in this context about using the term bottom here? What is this doing for anybody?

Chingy: I really hate the way people talk about being a bottom as being, oh, I’m shy and timid and all this. And, for such a long time, and often, sometimes still people would mistake me for a top or want me to top them because I’m very confident and loud. And, I have a certain type of bombastic charisma to me that I can recognize. And, I get that makes people be, oh, she’s in control of the situation, she’s powerful. And, I’m, yeah, but I also, I’m powerful in the fact that I want to be a hole and am a whole, and I’m going to do that. I’m not going to top you for free, no.

Christina: Absolutely not.

Chingy: And, I just hate this conflation of bottoming with timidity and being a small Bean, I hate it.

Christina: I was going to say, we are really edging closer to tender queer, small Bean territory here. I think that is the thing that I’m reacting against, right? It is that kind of small, white, queer energy that I’m, oh, I’m good, I’m all set on that one. I don’t need that energy in my life, but I am a bottom, I just don’t need that energy. Maybe that’s just it.

Chingy: Yeah, I don’t go for that energy, I’m just… I don’t know, anytime someone conflates bottoming with weakness, or timidity, or uncertainty, I’m just red flag. No, absolutely not.

Christina: I want to know if you, for our listeners, what are your three rules of bottoming that you swear by? What are some ways we can make our listeners better at bottoming and less small Bean energy? How can we help the people?

Chingy: So, I would say if there are three it’s awareness, communication, appreciation. So, be aware of what you need, be aware of what you can do, be aware of what you can’t do. Be able to know your limits and know what you want, and that involves exploration. Even if you don’t know entirely what you want, as long as you communicate where you are with it. I feel like people get scared to communicate because communicating is vulnerable in certain situations. You’re just being like: here’s what’s going on with me, and it’s, well, you shouldn’t be having intimate relations with other people if you aren’t willing to communicate where you’re at. So, I think that communication and letting someone know what you want and what you need is really important.

I don’t know, people think tops are mind readers, bottoms think tops are mind readers and they’re not. Then, like I was saying before, “Appreciation.” Recognize the person you are bottoming for is not just a fucking machine, unless you’re bottoming for a fucking machine. But, a person with needs, and insecurities, and feelings, and just know why you want to be doing this with them. And, it doesn’t have to be a super cerebral experience, but just be aware. I don’t know, I feel like those checklists that certain kinky people have are a good starting point for a lot of people. Yes, no, maybe, what are you into? Communication is hard at first, but just learn how to speak to what you want and go for it.

Christina: That’s gorgeous.

Chingy: Ask for what you want, because no one’s going to give it to you if you don’t ask for what you want. What I say is: closed holes don’t get filled.

Christina: Wow, put that on a fucking billboard somewhere because it deserves to be seen by many, many, and all.

Drew: I would follow that up by asking… And, maybe because both of you had such a clear sense of self from early on, maybe you don’t have advice for this. But, for people listening to that and are like, but I don’t know what I want. Do either of you have thoughts on what exploration can look like in a way that’s respectful and clear, but-

Chingy: Yeah, telling the other person that you don’t know entirely what you want, that’s the thing, even if you aren’t totally aware of what you want, you can be aware of how aware you are. And, tell the person, this is where I am, I’m not really sure if I’m into this, but I’m willing to try it, that’s maybe. I don’t know, you can just feel it out and if it doesn’t feel good, be, I actually don’t want to do that, can we do something else?

Christina: Yeah, I mean, as ever the way the Wait, is This A Date motto is, you got to say what you want, you got to say it out loud with your mouth hole.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: That’s the moment.

Drew: And, I do think that, just thinking of my own experiences, it is really hard to ask for something and then retract it. And that, I think is also so important though, is knowing that’s an option and that you can try things. And, I think there’s also this pressure that sex always has to be great, you want to be great at sex, and you want the other person to have a good experience and to feel like you had a good experience. And, while that makes sense and while yeah, sure that’s the ideal, it also makes sense that if you’re still exploring things, maybe every time you fuck it’s not going to be incredible for you and maybe, especially, not incredible for the other person. And especially, if it’s someone who you want to go on to continue fucking. Being able to be this isn’t working for me or that didn’t work for me, and talking about it. And, if you don’t know what you want, then it honestly shouldn’t bruise the other person’s ego because you didn’t communicate what you wanted, or you did and it turned out to not be the thing you wanted. And, how were they supposed to know that? And, you are exploring and it’s part of it, and maybe that instance of fucking wasn’t the best, but you know what? You can then do it again, sometimes right away.

Chingy: It’s not always going to be tens across the board, sometimes it’s just exploration, you just need to feel things out. And, it’s not always going to be perfect, you’re right, but try and have an open, communicative experience even if it’s not perfectly blissful and orgasmic.

Christina: Wow, that’s gorgeous, I feel like that really puts a nice little button on this combo. My friends, my gorgeous, smart friends.

Drew: Should we do crush corner?

Christina: We should do crush corner, who can say why I sing things when I sing them.

Drew: Do you want to start us off, Christina?

Christina: Yeah, I can start us off. I have been bravely consuming almost no media in this time. Not really sure what’s going on with me, I haven’t been watching stuff, who am I? I’m just kind of vibing out here in the world. So, I think for today, my crush is just going to be a long standing crush of mine and it’s going to be Shohreh Aghdashloo. She’s currently the lock screen on my phone, she’s got a voice that sounds like gravel poured over honey, I think it’s incredible. And, I just hope she’s having a nice time, I don’t know what she’s up to right now. She’s probably going to be in some other Sci-Fi series, that seems to be her thing right now. I say, go off girl, and she’s a Taurus, so same, same girl! Game recognized game over here. But, that’s going on with me. What’s going on with you, Drew?

Drew: I finally watched Smiley Face, and so my-

Chingy: Yes!

Drew: I know, I was waiting for that reaction.

Chingy: Gregg Araki is my favorite filmmaker, and I think it’s an underrated hit of his.

Christina: Fist pumping.

Drew: I don’t know why it took me so long, but I also hadn’t seen Mysterious Skin until this year. That one, I knew why it was taking me a long time to watch, but-

Chingy: Yeah, that one’s harder to watch than a stoner comedy with Anna Ferris.

Drew: But, they are two of my favorite movies I’ve seen all year, I love both of them so much. And, Anna Ferris is so… She’s my crush of the week because she’s incredible, it’s an incredible performance. I mean, I was obviously super high while watching it and it was one of the most delightful experiences I’ve had watching anything in a long while. And, a reminder, I’ve watched like 20 Paul Newman movies multiple weeks, so I’ve had a lot of great viewing experiences. But, it was so great, and she’s so great. And, I’ve always thought she was great, I was obsessed with the Scary Movie movies back in the day.

Chingy:I think it’s her peak.

Drew: Most of the time I watch her stuff and I go, oh, I wish this was a better movie for her, this was a movie worthy of her. And, this is the first time… I think it’s the first time that I’ve watched something where I’ve been, this is worthy of her and she’s doing her best work. So, Anna Ferris is my crush of the week, and Smiley Face is a recommendation.

Christina: Gorgeous.

Chingy: Yeah, it’s a stoner comedy, but it feels more like a shrooms comedy because you just eat so many edibles. And, I watched it on shrooms in Palm Spring with a bunch of fems once and it was beautiful.

Drew: That’s beautiful.

Christina: Yeah, that’s a gorgeous little picture you just painted with your words there.

Chingy: We were by a pool, it was an outdoor TV, it was really lovely.

Christina: It got better.

Chingy: Yeah, my crush of the week. I mean, I have so many crushes in real life. Can I have two?

Drew: Absolutely.

Christina: Yeah, no rules.

Chingy: Okay, so aside from my partners and my booze and all that, crushes are Cindy Wilson from the B-52’s. She’s the one who’s not the redhead, I don’t know, I just love her beehives and her fashion. And, it sucks that she’s the only one in the band who’s not gay and I’m just like, damn. Even Kate Pearson is, I think she’s dating a Butch. And then, it’s weird for me to pick a dude as one of my crushes, but Robert Mitchum for sure. Star of… I’m only thinking of movies where he plays a piece of shit, let me think of… He’s the star of Holiday Affair, Out of the Past, he was such a great noir actor. And, he’s just got a great voice and very strong character to his face that some people are like, “He looks like a toad.” And I’m like, “No, he doesn’t.” I don’t know, his face does look a little smashed, but it’s classic handsome.

Christina: Character face.

Chingy: Yeah, he’s got a lot of character, and I’ve just been watching a lot of Robert Mitchum movies. I think most recently I watched Holiday Affair, which stars him and Janet Leigh. Is it Janet Leigh or Janet Leigh?

Drew: Leigh.

Chingy: I think the one from Psycho. Okay, yeah.

Christina: I think it’s Leigh.

Chingy: Yeah, it’s her and him, and she’s a war widow, and has this boyfriend, and then he just shows up and is… It’s like straight Carol, except I think I like it more than Carol. Because he works at a toy store, they meet at a toy store.

Christina: Well, and there it is.

Chingy: And then, she has this guy who wants to marry her, it’s the detective from Rear Window. He shows up and is just way more charming, and he is just like, I think you should marry me, actually, and points were made, she should marry him.

Drew: Wow, I love it. I really-

Christina: I love game.

Drew: I love following you on Letterboxd, because I feel like you, one, I like your taste and what you have to say about movies, but also I feel like you do what I do, which is get very obsessive about one actor or one filmmaker, and are just watching a bunch of stuff. And, that’s very much me.

Christina: The two of you are very fun to follow because I’m like, oh what are Drew and Chingy into right now? And, it’s just this gorgeous list of things. I’m like, oh I know where they are.

Drew: Wow, well thank you so much for being here, and do you want to tell people where they can find you and your work and your manifesto?

Chingy: Yeah, so my manifesto is at chingynea.com, but yeah, I’m on Twitter, and Instagram, and all that as The Gay Chingy, like the rapper, but gay]

Christina: Gay.

Chingy: I just sold my first feature, which I’m also going to direct, but that’s not for a couple years. So, more updates on that will be from my Twitter and other things. And, I write for a bunch of publications, no specific that I call a home right now, just freelancing. But yeah, follow me on Twitter for updates about it.

Drew: Amazing, thanks.

Christina: Just follow Chingy on Twitter for fun, also just for a damn good time.

Chingy: I shit post a lot, I’m just goofing most of the time. I know I should be more professional on there, but I’m just goofing and flirting with sluts there.

Christina: I think the time for a professional Twitter has passed, I think we’re all past it emotionally.

Drew: I have a funny anecdote to end this and also to encourage people to always listen past the outro, whatever, is that when we met, I didn’t follow you on social media and I just knew you from around LA, queer spaces. And then, at Acamp, I hit on you and was like, “Do you want to hook up?” And, you were like, “I think, I want to be friends.” And then, after a camp I followed you on Twitter, and I was like, I would not have been able to do anything for you sexually. I was like, oh, okay, well now-

Chingy: Yeah, I kind of only date dominatrices, it’s a thing. Yeah, totally.

Drew: I love that for you.

Christina: Wow, I love that for both of you, frankly.

Chingy: I feel like my Twitter is a good way to get to know my taste, and I call Twitter my dating app, that’s the main thing I use to find dates. And, it’s because I’m just very clear about what I’m about on there.

Drew: That’s perfect.

Christina: Clarity and communication, always.

Drew: And, I do think that an important part of this podcast is that the majority of our guests are people who have either rejected me, or who I’ve rejected, mostly have rejected me. And then, we’re all still friends and that’s to encourage all of the little timid queers to be more forward, and that’s our message. It’s the queer way. Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at WaitIsThisADate. And you can email us at waitesthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein, our logo is by Manya Dar, and this podcast was produced, edited, and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at Draw_Gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter at C_ GraceT, and on Instagram at Christina_ GraceT. And, you can find Autostraddle of course at Autostraddle.

Drew: And, you can find autostraddle @autostraddle.com, the reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment, hurriedly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on the case here. We don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): I just thinking, and it’s really funny that I thought a whole history of the world of people with prostates talking about how good it felt to get fucked, and I was like “Yeah, I think I’m the one person who’s just not going to work for.” Like, I really thought that was the issue instead of, I don’t know, hadn’t just figured it out yet. Life, what a journey.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 208: When Your Friends Don’t Like Your Partner

Bringing someone home to meet your parents is such a trope it’s become an entire genre of movie. But for many queer people there are two families to introduce to a partner: given and chosen. And sometimes the chosen family is scarier.

That’s why this week on the podcast we have Autostraddle’s own Yashwina Canter to talk about what happens when your friends don’t like your partner or your partner doesn’t like your friends. We get into Yash’s own dating history and how she’s navigated being on every side of this equation. And we talk about how all of us have navigated the challenge of our friends dating people. We even venture into some biphobia discourse and I try to stir up some drama by asking if anyone has ever liked a friend’s partner too much. I love some chaos!

We also begin with a truly inspired game of Hayley Kiyoko lyric or Rupi Kaur poem and end with three especially good crushes. To quote Tessa Thompson, Yash is single and ready to pringle so shoot your shot queers — just be prepared to pass the friend vibe test!

SHOW NOTES

+ Once again, congratulations to Hayley Kiyoko.

+ My Paul Newman/Joanne Woodward obsession has finally come to a close and here is how I’d rank their work (of what I’ve seen). Also can officially say that The Last Movie Stars is great and you should watch it.

+ Endemic does not mean “end of pandemic.” Whoever told me that was either lying or joking and I think probably the latter! I am very gullible!

+ Read Autostraddle’s comprehensive coverage of A League of Their Own.

+ The famous picture of Myrna Loy and Amelia Earhart:

Amelia Earhart and Myrna Loy stand next to each other in front of a plane. They both have their arms crossed and are both chuckling.

Photo by Bettmann Archive/Getty Images

+ Check out some of Myrna Loy’s films on The Criterion Channel.

+ Beyoncé is our crush every week. Read this great piece by Amari about Renaissance.

EPISODE

Christina: Guess what? Annoying is the big equalizer of the world. Everybody can be annoying. Except for me. I’m perfect.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: I’ve never been annoying. Not once. Not ever.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the one, the only question that we ever want to talk about. I don’t know where I’m going with this. It’s about dating and it’s about knowing whether things are dates or not, et cetera.

Drew: A friend of mine asked me— literally I got a text yesterday that was like, “I don’t know if this thing I’m on is a date or not.” And I was like, “I have a podcast all about that.” And he was like, “Yeah, I know. I know.” And I was like, “You could ask.” And he was like, “And risk rejection? Never.” And I went, “Well, you should listen to the podcast more because we do cover this very thing.”

Christina: And that’s really what we’re trying to get to at the end of the ding dang day.

Drew: Yeah. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker and a queer trans woman and honestly carrying over from last week, just number one Paul Newman enthusiast of the moment that is— You know, I love to switch the thing I’m just absolutely fixating on and that is the thing that I— Now we’re on week two.

Christina: I love that. I’m Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle and a podcaster around the damn town. Town in this way is the internet. I’m also pretty gay and I love to support your hyper fixations on things.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: I think it’s incredible. I think it’s really beautiful and I’m really glad you’re still on this journey with our guy, Paul. I think that’s beautiful.

Drew: Thanks so much.

You have a game for me?

Christina: I do have a game for you. I have a game for you that I think is actually going to be quite challenging, but it will be fun.

Drew: Great. Great, great, great. I love that. I love it, I love it.

Christina: Today’s game is: Is this a Hayley Kiyoko lyric or is it a line from Rupi Kaur’s poetry?

Drew: Wow. Okay.

Christina: And it is going to be challenging, but we’re going to have a good time. We’re not here for a long time, we’re here for a good time. That’s the motto.

Drew: Wow. You’re really wading into two discourses. I mean, there’s not really a lot of Hayley Kiyoko discourse, really.

Christina: Yeah. And I thought I’d go back in time to, I don’t know, 2014 when we were having Rupi Kaur discourse. I don’t know that we are anymore, but—

Drew: No, that’s a really good point. Yeah.

Christina: Why not make a joke when you can make a joke?

Drew: Sure. Yeah, let’s do it.

Christina: Are you ready?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: “The truth is you make my tongue so weak it forgets what language to speak in.” Or, “hear your voice. Are you there? Through the trees, fill the air.”

Drew: I think the first one is Rupi Kaur and the second one is Hayley Kiyoko

Christina: And you are correct. Gorgeous work.

Drew: Great. Okay. This might end up being embarrassing because I’m not going to say I was a huge Hayley Kiyoko fan in 2018, but I did see her in concert and listen to her a lot so I guess you could say I was at least a fan.

Christina: I am similarly a fan. And I do respect that. Though I did, I think, mostly choose from the latest album. So if you’re super familiar with that album already—

Drew: I’m not. I’m not.

Christina: Right. Because we’ve been in a Paul Newman place. We haven’t been in a listening to Hayley place.

Drew: No. I mean—

Christina: No, I hear you. I hear you. All right, number two. “Shadows climb up the stairs,” your first line. And you’re second line, “Like the rainbow after the rain.”

Drew: Oh, that’s so hard. You would think rainbow might be Hayley because of the basic queer. I’m going to go with that.

Christina: You would be incorrect. “The rainbow after the rain” is Rupi.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Yes. Yes, indeed. But yeah, I thought that might throw you for one.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: We have five of these. So I’m not going to make you do a ton of these because this is challenging. Number five.

Drew: No, no, no. I’m having a great time.

Christina: Not number five. Number three. I don’t know how to count. I’m gay. “It’s caught inside of my mind, what we could have been.” Number two. “We tend to our wounds with grace.”

Drew: Oh see, this feels too easy. I feel like I’m getting tricked. It feels like the first one is obviously Hayley and the second one is Rupi, but now I’m like, am I getting tricked? I’m going to reverse my instinct. The second one is—

Christina: You’re going to say the second one is Hayley?

Drew: The second one is Hayley. Yeah.

Christina: Okay. You should trust your instincts, which is a lesson for both guessing what are lyrics versus poetry and dating also. That’s a lesson to the listeners also.

Drew: Wow. Okay.

Christina: All right. Number four. “And so we become eternal,” or “coals like the ocean breeze healed all of your broken pieces.”

Drew: Oh God. Those both really could be either, which I know is the point of the game, but it’s still—

Christina: It’s great when you validate that I did a good job in putting this deranged game together.

Drew: I think the first one is Hayley and the second one is Rupi.

Christina: You unfortunately would be incorrect. “And so we become eternal” is Rupi and “cold like the ocean breeze healed all your broken pieces” is in fact the number one legend, Hayley Kiyoko.

Drew: Wow. Okay.

Christina: All right. Our final one. Are you mentally ready?

Drew: I think so.

Christina: Okay. “I’d burn you and you still couldn’t take your eyes off me,” or “I’m done with fires just to prove that I’ve been cursed.”

Drew: Wow. Okay. I think the first one is Hayley because that feels like her gay bravado.

Christina: You are incorrect. That one is Rupi Kaur.

Drew: What?

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Wow. I really felt good about that one.

Christina: No, that one was actually surprising and I was really thrilled to just be like, oh, there’s two fire ones that I can put together, but I knew that was the hardest one so I did save it for last.

Drew: What is Rupi Kaur up to? Is she just writing poetry?

Christina: I think she’s still writing books. I think what the lesson of this game is, anything can be a lyric and anything could be a Rupi Kaur poem.

Drew: You could argue that lyrics are poetry.

Christina: Wow. That’s actually huge to think about.

Drew: One thing I will say about Hayley Kiyoko is I’m so proud of her that she didn’t give up dating “straight girls” and found someone who she’s now in a full on relationship with who like— of all the, you’re interested in straight girls, what happens from that, she finally pulled the Tig Notaro, Stephanie Allynne. She finally did the one where the person wasn’t straight. They were in it for the long haul or at least for a decent amount of time. And I’m just so happy for her. It’s not something I recommend to people who aren’t pop stars.

Christina: Yeah. I would not date ex Bachelor contestants either. Seems hard. Seems like a hard road.

Drew: Yeah. There’s always one or two who get off early. I mean I’ve only watched two seasons, but I always felt like there were two contestants where you’re like this person’s too cool for this or is just a different kind of hot. Is a gay hot versus a Bachelor hot. And they always got off the first episode or the second episode and probably that’s the reason, but I would date one of them.

Christina: Yeah. I would date for sure. For sure. Mostly, honestly, just to be like, yeah, that’s a thing I did. How fun is that to say aloud?

Drew: It’s a really good point.

Well, that was a blast.

Christina: I’m so happy. I think this next guest and subject is going to be a blast also.

Drew: I think so too. Should our very special guest introduce herself?

Yashwina: Hi, I’m Yashwina. Known to those who love me or hate me as Yash.

Christina: I love the confidence of love me or hate me.

Yashwina: I like to give people options. I’m also a writer and nuisance at Autostraddle.

Christina: Yes. We love a nuisance every which where we go. We support nuisancetry.

Yashwina: I just think that we have to support gay wrongs as well as gay rights.

Drew: And you’ve really joined me in bringing some classic movie energy and fandom to Autostraddle. And it’s really powerful to not be alone.

Yashwina: I love this for us.

Christina: It’s really beautiful to see you guys have such a grand time in your classic movie energy.

Drew: Honestly, I think we could do it more. I think we could bring it … I don’t know. I was watching all these Paul Newman movies and I was like, can I get an article out of this? And I was like, I don’t know if I could. It might be a stretch. But then I was like, well…

Christina: That is your favorite kind of stretch though. Definitionally, your favorite kind of stretch is how can I make this work?

Drew: Absolutely. So we’ll see.

Yashwina: The character is literally named Butch Cassidy.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: Well. And say that.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Say that.

Yashwina: I just think lesbians should dress like Paul Newman characters. Plenty already do.

Drew: I do agree.

Christina: Yeah. I have to agree with that one.

Drew: We are not unfortunately— Well, not unfortunately. We’re here to discuss something that’s relevant to the dating podcast, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s not unfortunate, but we are here to talk about the topic of introducing partners to friends. What happens when our friends don’t like our partners or even not partners, but someone we’re going on a couple dates with, someone we’re hooking up with, someone who we’re bringing into their lives against their will, and what do they have to say about that.

Christina: I love that you made that sound like a hostage scenario.

Drew: Sometimes it feels like it.

Christina: Bringing this person into your life against your will and you will deal.

Drew: I guess the first question that I have for all of us is in that dynamic, are you usually the one bringing the person against your friends’ will or the person whose will is… This is getting confusing. Do you tend to date people who your friends don’t like? Do your friends tend to date people who you don’t like?

Christina: As a famous hater, I will say it is often that my friends date people that I don’t like. One of my biggest fears in life is that I would date someone that my friends didn’t like. Almost nothing would stress me out more than that. Being like, “I don’t know what I’m… What are we doing here? How is this going to work?” That would really send me for a spiral. So I tend to just hide in my corner and be like, “Hmm. This is the person you’re bringing. Interesting.”

Drew: I tend to think based on knowing you that that fear is certainly not the only reason why you’re not a major dater, but it is a part of the fears.

Christina: Oh, certainly part of it. Certainly a part of it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. What about you two?

Yashwina: I’ve been on every side of the equation, but I will say that historically my friends have commented that my taste is very hit or miss. More miss.

Christina: Interesting. Interesting.

Yashwina: Yeah. I’ve been in situations where my friends didn’t like the person I was dating, where the person I was dating didn’t like my friends, and then where I have not liked the people that my friends were dating either. So I have seen every configuration.

Drew: How do you feel about it? Is it relationships or is it people you’re casually seeing usually?

Yashwina: It’s definitely been both, but it is interesting in situations where I feel so much of it is about a hierarchy of allegiance or trust or loyalty where it’s like, if I trust one person to pull me aside and be like, “Hey, this other person in your life isn’t treating you the way we want to see you be treated,” then there is kind of a pecking order where it’s like, okay, this person is the one whose interpretation of events I have to listen to the most and maybe others get taken with more grains of salt. But if, in such and such configuration, this person is telling me because they care about me and they want good things for me, that something isn’t right, then you have to listen to it.

Drew: Yeah. It’s interesting because with not my current relationship, but my most serious relationship before that, when we started dating, it was largely my partner telling me that my friends kind of sucked. And in some ways you would think that would be like, ah, that’s not a good sign if your partner’s trying to turn you against your friends. But it was done in a way that was really caring and my best best friend — like it wasn’t all of them — so I think that also helped. And I was still a college student and was closeted so my friends were either straight or also closeted. And a lot of my friends did suck and didn’t… And not even sucked. Because what does that mean? But just didn’t treat me very well. And so she was right to make those comments. But now, because I feel a lot more stable in my friendships, if anyone I was dating were to say, “Your friends suck,” I would be like, ah, this is not a good sign. This is a red flag. Which luckily, I’ve never been in a relationship where my friends and my partner get along more than currently and that I get along with my partner’s friends more and it is better. It’s so much nicer.

Christina: Go on. Really.

Drew: And the first two serious relationships I had, it wasn’t that my friends didn’t like those people. They liked them a lot. It’s just I didn’t even realize at the time, because I didn’t have anything to compare it to. Now I’m like, oh, the people in my life are excited to see… It’s different. It just feels different and it’s nice. And that’s a really nice thing.

Christina: Yeah. It is really cool.

Drew: But also, I don’t know. I mean, I do think people need to make mistakes. Not even mistakes. Have to date the people who they’re dating at that time. And it’s one thing when things cross a certain line into being really bad. But if my friends are dating someone who’s not my favorite person, usually I am like, most relationships end. I’m going to be there for them. And just try to get along with my friend’s partner because they’re my friend’s partner.

Christina: Yeah. I think even when I’ve had friends that I haven’t liked their partners, it has usually not been like a, “Oh, I think this person’s really terrible to you.” Of course there have been exceptions where I was like, “Okay, that’s actually troubling.” Perhaps there is a conversation that needs to be had. But for the most part I’m just like, this person is not a person that I would choose to spend time with for whatever variety of reasons. That does not necessarily rise to the level of me having to share that with a friend and be like, by the way, I think your partner is boring. That doesn’t really do anything for anybody in many scenarios. So I can usually just be a hater quietly. And at the end of the day, it’s a relationship that I’m not in. So it’s like, how much can I really be expected to be listened to in these scenarios where I’m like, “I don’t know. Aren’t they just kind of annoying? Aren’t you kind of annoyed? No. Okay. Go off.”

Yashwina: That’s such an interesting thing too, though, where it’s being curious about what someone is getting out of dating that person. I feel like when I’ve been the one dating someone that annoyed my friends, at first, obviously when someone comes to me and is like, “Hey, I’m not wild about your person,” it’s not like I’m not listening. It’s just that maybe I don’t immediately dump them.

It’s like, okay, I’m taking that information under advisement and I might act on it later, but right now it doesn’t rise to that level. But I also do end up having these conversations with my friends where they’re genuinely curious. They’re like, “I find such and such behavior really grating,” or, “I thought the way that they approached this conversation was very off-putting.” And then that’s where as the person dating them, you’re the intermediary of, “They were really nervous about meeting you. They were really anxious or apprehensive.” Or, “This topic sets them off and we don’t know why.” Or, “They have such and such feelings about it.” And so there’s that kind of explanation and then there’s also the added layer of, “But when it’s just the two of us, we have different kinds of conversations.” Or, “They are more willing to listen or they’re more comfortable in one on one or they don’t get combative,” things like that. And so there is this exchange of how they were with you socially as the partner of a friend is different than the inside of our relationship is and sometimes you have to show your friend what the inside of the relationship is like and other times you have to feed back into the relationship, the information that your friends outside are telling you matters.

Christina: When you have dated people that your friends have found annoying, have you… Perhaps it’s because I know my friends so well, but if I’m out with somebody who I can tell would be annoying to my friends, I’m like, “Oh God, this person and Shoshana, they can never have a fucking conversation. This is going to go horribly. This is not going to work out.” I can usually tell pretty quickly. Is that something that either of you, if you have dated people that are annoying to your friends, notice? Or is it something that when you put them in the same room, you’re like, “Oh, I see the problem now.”?

Yashwina: I think I can usually anticipate it. And that is why I’m often very, very slow to introduce people to my friends, to the point where it is a little bit laughable. Meeting my friends, I think is at this point like meeting my parents. And so we have to be in it for several many months before I’m finally like, I’m going to introduce my friends to this person.

Drew: Yeah. I feel the same. The idea of being like, “Oh, for our second date, do you want to come to this thing where all my friends are?” is so wild to me.

Christina: No. Absolutely not.

Drew: It’s so wild to me. I love that for other people, but I don’t know. It’s wild.

Yashwina: That happened to me and it was terrifying. Someone I dated, it was, I think maybe our third date. I hadn’t been seeing them a couple of weeks and ended up at their house, watching The L Word with them and their best friends. There was a screaming match and I was just sitting there like, “Oh, The L Word is a contact sport?”

Drew: Yeah. That’s a really intense—

Christina: Yeah. That’s a really high level of difficulty, I feel.

Drew: Okay. I’m going to out myself as a little bit of a monster, but it also makes me think of the reverse of liking someone too much. And I think if I was on date two with someone and they were like, “Want to meet my friends?” What if I got there and there were other people I wanted to talk to more? Two dates in, I don’t know how I feel about someone probably. So I also think about, have either of you ever been in a situation where your friends introduced you to their new person and you were like, “Oh God, this person’s incredible. I wish I was dating them.”?

Christina: I don’t believe that has ever happened to me. No. I think my friends and I all have our very specific types and vibes we look for in a partner and they are very rarely on the same wavelength.

Yashwina: I mean, if my partner introduced me to their friends, I have never had the situation arise where I’m like, “Oh no, I have a spontaneous crush on one of the person I’m dating’s friends.” That’s never happened to me but mostly just because in that situation, I feel like I’m mostly just trying to be like… You are trying to be pleasant and nice because you’re like, I am also… Dating is all just a strange audition and you’re just auditioning to keep dating this person and be like, oh, do I pass the friend vibe check? Do the friends pass my vibe check?

Drew: What about your friends dating someone who you liked a lot?

Yashwina: I think I’m with Christina. My friends and I, we all have quite different types.

Drew: I like that I’m pushing you both on this when I can’t think of an example where this has happened to me.

Christina: I was going to say Drew, drop your “Monster” track. Go off.

Drew: Wanting to sew some chaos. But I’m trying to think if… I would say I had some friend crushes that I maybe sometimes was anxious that they were crush crushes on my second serious relationship’s friends. And those people I’m just still friends with friends with.

Christina: Friends with. Yeah.

Drew: And I’m not friends with my ex so it is just like, well that worked out. But it’s interesting also because some of my close friends are… I haven’t really had the experience that many times of my current group of close friends, bringing someone new in. Because a lot of my friends either were in serious relationships when I became friends with them or they don’t really date.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s also… It just hasn’t happened in a while. If you can believe it, I’m kind of the last man standing. So I think I’m going through my friend group and I’m like, oh yeah, no, everybody pretty much is partnered at this time. So there’s not a ton of opportunity.

Drew: I also don’t think… I don’t know. It’s such a trope in media, but I’m like, Yash, you’re right. When you’re meeting people’s friends, you’re in such a certain head space. When you’re meeting your friend’s new person you’re in such a head space. I also am so excited for my friends whenever they’re dating someone new. I get so gossipy and whatever about it. So I would just be so excited to… I’m just saying, Christina, if you ever started dating someone, you don’t have to be worried that I’m going to develop a crush on them.

Christina: I am not worried about that.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: But no, I’m very aware of whoever gets to be next in the Christina dating Rolodex is really going to have a lot of hyper excited friends of mine to deal with. So God bless.

Drew: The times that I’ve had the most like my friends dating people who I’ve disliked was before I came out and I had so many straight women friends who were dating straight men. And obviously a lot of those guys, not the best.

Christina: No.

Drew: Look, there are nightmare lesbians. There are nightmare every gender and every sexual orientation. But it’s also an age thing. I was in my early 20s. Teens, early 20s, cis straight men. That’s not a good dating pool. So that was often the biggest challenge. Not to wade into biphobia discourse, but it is something that I think is interesting, the idea of… I’m choosing my words very carefully here.

Christina: I’m pounding the table I’m so excited. I’m like discourse it up.

Drew: No, but just like the idea of it’s really important to parse out the things that are true, which is there are absolutely swaths of the lesbian community that are really biphobic. Oftentimes those are the same groups that are transphobic. And so I don’t interact with them that much. So I’ve had to, from talking to friends who are cis bisexuals or who have had experience identifying as cis bisexuals, to be like, oh, there are a lot of lesbians who suck. And I just— it’s not the people who would ever talk to a trans person usually so it’s not a problem for me. I’m sure there’s some whatever, but there’s a lot of cross over there. But then I also think there’s sometimes accusations of biphobia when actually people just don’t like a specific straight man and they’re like, “I don’t want this person’s boyfriend around.” And it’s maybe because he sucks and the same way that there are certain lesbian partners who I also wouldn’t want to be around and if I had an acquaintance or a friend who wasn’t in my inner inner circle, that I might be less likely to want to hang out with that person if they always brought their partner of any gender that I didn’t like. Because I don’t know. The friends of mine who are queer and dating cis straight men, they’re dating… I mean, not good ones. There’s no good and bad. It isn’t a binary.

Christina: Yeah. But they’re dating nice dudes that you like.

Drew: But dating people who I’m happy to be around so it’s never even crossed my mind. But then if there are people who are bringing someone around who makes me feel like, I don’t know, not great, whether it’s not even unsafe, but just like that guy’s annoying.

Christina: Yeah. It’s usually just like that guy’s annoying is usually how I feel.

Yashwina: And I don’t think it’s a phobia or an ism to find one specific guy really annoying.

Christina: No. Yeah. I will bravely go on the record and say I don’t believe it is. And it’s like, if your boyfriend is a bummer, then I don’t want him around. And if you’re dating someone who is a woman or of any other gender and they’re annoying, I might also not want them around. Guess what? Annoying is the big equalizer of the world. Everybody can be annoying. Except for me. I’m perfect.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: I’ve never been annoying. Not once. Not ever.

Yashwina: I mean, I was just thinking too about how there’s so many different things about annoying, especially when you’re their friend and you’re watching because sometimes it’s annoying just as in interacting with this person gets on my nerves or is grating. But other times annoyance is kind of the precursor to a red flag where if this behavior accumulates… Like if they say something annoying one time, it’s just annoying. But the third time that they get on the same nerve, it starts to be like, ooh.

Drew: Yeah. Also I love annoying people. That’s some of my favorite people.

Christina: Actually one of Drew’s ways of life.

Drew: I want to be actually more specific and I think the only real reason why I’ve ever not wanted to be around a friend’s partner is because they treat my friend poorly and I don’t know how to be around it and it’s challenging to watch. That’s really the only thing that I find I really struggle with. I don’t like watching couples who are fighting all the time or even worse where the person who I’m not friends with is being cruel to my friend. Especially if I’m not good enough friends with the person to really step in and be like, “Hey, we should talk about this,” or whatever. It’s like, I can’t be around this acquaintance who I really like if their partner is always undermining them or always correcting them or just being a jerk. That’s the thing that’s mainly going to make my skin crawl and me be like, I don’t know how much this person can be in my life still. Which is sad.

Christina: Yeah.

Yashwina: That’s what my friends say to me sometimes. When I’ve dated people who my friends have been hesitant about. Sometimes it takes me a while to finally hold a parachute and break up with someone. And as soon as I do, everyone’s like, “Oh, thank God.” And I’m like, “What do you mean? You hated them this whole time?”

Christina: The whole time.

Yashwina: And they’re like, “Yeah. They were obnoxious to you. Or they were always trying to make you feel small or they always dominated conversations or they were dismissive of your interests and it was really uncomfortable to be around.” My friends are very protective people and very much will throw down. The last time that I had someone who my friends really did not like, friends on the other side of the country are taking their hoops out. And so it’s one of those ones where it’s like, but in person, you can’t just be like, “I’m going to put a tire iron through their windshield.” It’s like, I have to watch this person interact with someone I care about. And my friends are really protected and they’re like, “Mm, no.”

Drew: I mean, my go to… I’m going to regret saying this because I’m just giving away my secrets, but—

Christina: That’s a podcast baby.

Drew: What I’ve learned… Because anytime that I would try to tell my friends, and again, my teenage girl friends dating teenage boys tried to be like, “Hey, this person doesn’t treat you very well.” They would get defensive, obviously, because that’s what we all do and especially if we’re getting validation from someone or we have feelings for someone and we want to stay with them even if they don’t treat us well. And especially, especially if there’s a part of us that knows that what our friend is saying is true. Defensiveness is a reasonable reaction. I learned that it was so much better. It’s not really a tactic as much as just, I think it’s a better approach that I would focus more on the way that my friend felt.

So instead of being like, I don’t like this person, I would be like, “Hey, it seems like you’re upset when she talks to you like this. Do you want to talk about that?” Whatever. Just validating. And a lot of times it is the case where I would like the person as a person. I would find them funny or smart or interesting or whatever. And I would be like, “Look, I like this person. I like you two together. You just don’t seem happy because of X, Y, and Z.” And I’ve found that to be a far more effective way of dealing with… I mean, it’s what I would want to hear. It’s not that I don’t care if my friends like my partner, but Christina, as you said, they’re not in that relationship.

Christina: Exactly.

Drew: So as long as it seems like I’m happy in the relationship, then it shouldn’t matter to them. And so it would only be if my partner was acting in a way that seemed like it was making me unhappy that I would want my friends to step in. And so it makes sense to focus on that aspect of it rather than this isn’t who I would date. And it’s like, great.

Christina: Right. You’re not dating them.

Drew: You’re not going to have an answer when Drew tries to sew chaos on the podcast. You’re not going to try to date my current partner. Sounds good to me.

Christina: Yeah. I don’t know. For me, I feel very similarly. It’s much easier to do a, you don’t seem happy when X, Y, Z thing is happening or this seems to make you upset. Is this something that happens a lot? How do you feel about that? I do think if there is consistent, constant patterns of bad behavior from a friend’s partner, there will be one or two times where I’m like, “Okay, look, I’m going to say this once. And I’m going to say this thing. We don’t have to talk about it again, but I do want to just put it on the record that I don’t like X, Y, Z thing about this person. I don’t like how that seems to make you feel. If you feel like I’m coming out of left field, feel free to ignore. I just want to get it on the record and we never have to talk about it again if you don’t want to, but I just want to voice it at least one time.”

But that is usually only in, I don’t know, really bad scenarios. And a lot of times when my friends were dating people that I didn’t like, and when it was in our 20s and we were dating horrible cis men, I was like, “I know you don’t like this person either. You don’t seem to be having a great time. So what’s the point of me being like, yeah, he sucks. You know that. I know that. What is there to say really?”

Drew: Yeah.

Yashwina: I mean, I think there’s also a really interesting point where you see the pattern and you want to acknowledge the pattern that you see. I’ve been on the receiving end of this. An example was I was dating someone who I always went to their place and they never came to mine. We were dating almost a year and I think they came over maybe once every other month. And my friends were like, “It’s really weird that you are always going to them all the time.” And to me at first it was just like, yeah, that is annoying. And we can acknowledge that it’s not great. I’m not saying that this is a thing that I’m actively stoked about. But there’s also room in there to say this doesn’t rise to the level of a deal breaker for me yet. And maybe for one of my friends that would’ve been a deal breaker way sooner, but it wasn’t a deal breaker for me. I mean, it’s not until it is.

Christina: Exactly. Yeah. But I also think knowing your friends and knowing, yeah, that would annoy me, but I can see how for this person that is not a problem for them or that is not something that they take as seriously or care about as much as I do so fine. We’ll let that one go.

Yashwina: Being able to see the difference and being like, yes, it is annoying, but I’m not going to dump them over it. And being able to meet someone in the middle and commiserate about, “Oh, I’m on my way to so-and-so’s place. The traffic is terrible.” That kind of commiseration just in letting it be annoying without necessarily having to escalate it to the deep meaningful friend check in right away, that’s also something too. It’s a way that I think my friends monitor things that they have qualms about without necessarily pulling the fire alarm every time.

Drew: I mean also every relationship, even the best ones, compromises are made.

Christina: There’s always something.

Drew: And different people make different compromises and it’s why we’re not all dating the same person.

Yashwina: The one thing standing between us and universal polyamory.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: So it makes sense that we all have things that for some people are like, “Oh, I could never date someone who acted that way or who was that way.” And other people are like, “Yeah, I don’t care. I can deal with that.” I don’t know. And I do think that it’s important as a friend to be able to field complaints from your friends about their relationships or partners without internalizing them and then taking that to their partners. Not obviously telling the partners, but what I mean is not holding onto that to be like, “Oh, my friend is unhappy. This relationship is bad. This person is bad.” But just that every relationship has challenges and it’s really nice to have friends where you can talk those things out because sometimes you’re talking about it and you realize you’re in the wrong and not every conversation has to happen exclusively within the relationship.

Sometimes I find it to be useful to be able to talk something out with a friend and then return to my partner and be like… I mean, literally last night I— I’m not going to get into all the details because remember, boundaries. I’m trying to have them on the podcast.

Christina: Brave.

Drew: I literally called my best friend to talk about… It’s not even a fight, but just a little disagreement that I had with my partner. And then my friend was like, “You’re wrong.” And I was like, “Yeah, I was worried about that.” And then she came back and I was like, “Well, I just got off the phone with Tirosh and we both agreed that I was wrong so I’m sorry.”

Christina: Yep. I talked to the council and it turns out the council has voted nay on me.

Drew: And there might be a time where my friend would be like, “No, you’re in the right. I get why you feel that way.” And whatever. And it’s good to be able to talk to your friends about shit. I don’t think it’s healthy when everything that’s happening in a relationship is just happening within a bubble of the relationship. But that’s what my friends are there for in some way. I mean, not in the straight girl way where you just spend all day complaining about your partner to your friends. I’ve never understood that. But if it’s just occasionally needing to figure out if a compromise is something you want to make or not.

Yashwina: The gut check and outside perspective is really important and I think is a valuable part about introducing your partners to your friends and your friends to your partners. Because something that I have definitely experienced is you leave it too late and then you are the only two in this closed off terrarium of a social dynamic. And then you take your weird terrarium and then you finally show it to your friends and they’re like, “That is overgrown and nasty. You got to clean that out.”

Christina: There’s mold in that terrarium and it looks awful. You have to not do that.

Yashwina: Yeah. And so that’s something I’m trying to be better about because when you date enough people in a row that your friends are like… Then I just have ended up being quite wary of introducing my friends to people. And that is obviously counterproductive because then by the time that I’m finally like shit, you should know that I live in a society and I leave it too late and then they’re like, “Oh my God. What? This has been going on for months? Oh my … Oh.”

Drew: I mean, that was such an interesting aspect of pandemic dating because we were all more separated. There really were just all these little bubbles. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the person who I pandemic dated, who I ended up real dating was the person who already knew one of my friends. Some of the other people I was trying to pandemic date, God love them, but I do think that if we were in a more real world scenario and we were in each other’s worlds that there maybe would’ve been a quicker level of I don’t know if this is going to work

Christina: Yeah. The pandemic bubble of like, oh yeah, anything is possible here in this space that is no space and anything can happen and nothing really feels like it’s reality. And then it’s like, oh reality though. She’s back.

Yashwina: I mean, that’s where I’m at now though. Because when you say, oh, the person who ended up rising to the top was the one who I already had friends in common with and stuff, that definitely resonates because having someone… I joke very self deprecatingly, but it’s one of those jokes with a grain of truth of I’m making my friends match make me because I clearly can’t be trusted to pick out my own people. I need someone who can be vouched for by someone who I trust because when I am picking it out without any kind of support or input from other people, maybe my decisions aren’t the best healthiest decisions I could make. And so I joke about it, but I’m also not kidding.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, it’s funny though because the friend who introduced Elise and I spent so long— we haven’t been friends for that long, but spent a lot of our friendship trying to set me up with various people and very dramatically failing. I mean not dramatically failing. Just in the sense that I would meet people and I’d be, “Really? That’s who you think… Interesting.”

Christina: That’s always such a weird feeling. You’re like, oh.

Drew: And then was not trying to set Elise an I up and then we were in the same space together because of this person. And then I think even when I told them that we were starting to chat on Instagram, there was a, “Oh, really? Oh, okay.” There was a little moment. So it is also funny to think the way that our friends have ideas about who we should be dating and sometimes even the partners of ours who they’ll end up really loving, it’s not who they would’ve guessed.

Christina: Yeah. They might not have immediately guessed that person for you.

Yashwina: I mean, friends are just the in person Tinder algorithm though. They’ll show you a bunch of people and maybe they’re not all right. The in person friends algorithm is real.

Drew: It’s why I love a house party. I love the idea of just being like, let’s bring a bunch of people together who I like, and then they can all meet each other or I can meet a bunch of people who my friends know and you can float around the party and talk to whoever you’re drawn to and there’s no like, oh I have this idea about these two people. It’s more just like, there’s a built in way of meeting all these people and also there’s someone at the party I can ask to be like, “Is that person single? Oh, okay. They’re not? Are they open? What’s the deal? How available is that person?” And that’s why I’m here to say that house parties should happen more.

Christina: Wow. Drew’s bravely coming out as pro house party. Wowsers.

Drew: I thought there would be an era of end of pandemic, which I found out is what endemic— Okay. Did someone lie to me and I’m now saying it on the mic? Is endemic really just the end tail of a pandemic and that’s why it’s called when something is endemic?

Christina: My gut immediately says no. Nothing to back that up though. Absolutely nothing.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Stay tuned.

Drew: I may keep this in and include it in the show notes just because I’m willing to be vulnerable. But I really thought there would be this end of pandemic era where people weren’t going to nightclubs, but there were just these incredible house parties and we never got it because people just started going to nightclubs again and I don’t blame them. Before variants really became a thing last summer, I went to some clubs, had a grand old time. I’m not judging anyone, but I really am sad that there wasn’t an era of 20 to 40 people house parties that were just nights to remember.

Yashwina: I think you’re right. I think we did have a missed opportunity for a real house party renaissance.

Christina: I don’t know what y’all are talking about because welcome to my house. My house is a house party. Let me tell you something.

Drew: That’s true.

Christina: We are a house of partying and it is challenging for me, but good for me also.

Drew: Yeah. Maybe I need to get my roommates… Maybe I need to be the roommate who makes my house into the house party house.

Christina: Yeah. There just has to be one person who’s always like, “I invited some people over.” That’s always what happens.

Drew: I don’t like that part of it though. I want to go to other people’s house parties, which is how a lot of people feel, I guess. But I already know these people and then I feel the stress of inviting people and not inviting people. Anyways, this is getting a little off topic, but—

Christina: No, I think it’s totally fair. I think it’s fair.

Drew: If anyone wants to invite me to a house party.

Christina: Bring back to the house party. That’s the message. That’s the message, right? Maybe date people that you like and maybe listen to your friends if it feels important, but maybe also don’t. I feel like we haven’t really nailed exactly what the truth is here, but I think that’s also part of it, right? There’s not an easy answer.

Drew: I also think big difference between someone who’s going to be your partner and someone who you’re going to have casual sex with. That is also something to keep in mind. And I think a good message. I think always is to know that for yourself and if you can’t know it for yourself, maybe phone a friend.

Christina: Phone a friend.

Drew: Phone a friend.

Christina: Yeah. I love a phone a friend.

Drew: Because sometimes someone is fun to hang out with and sex is good and they’re not who we should build a life with.

Christina: Wow. What a message to wrap that up on. I think that’s really beautiful.

Do you want to talk about some crushes? Some crushes of the week?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Drew, you got so excited. Are you going to say Paul Newman again?

Drew: I’m not going to say Paul Newman again. Yeah. Last week it was Paul Newman and Joann Woodward. This week it’s just Paul Newman. Next week it will be just Joann Woodward. No. This week my crush is Roberta Colindrez. I just watched… Which this is going to come out after it’s been out for everyone so I can say this. But I just finished the A League of Their Own TV show and it’s—

Christina: Oh, fun. It’s good?

Drew: It’s everything I wanted. Literally it’s everything I wanted from Gen Q and I’m so happy. And it’s the first reboot thing that doesn’t feel promising, but complicated and compromised, but it just feels like this is everything that I wish the original was.

Christina: I am so shocked.

Drew: It’s everything that I want. It’s so good.

Yashwina: I’m so happy. I have pinned a lot of hopes to that show. A League of Their Own was… I mean, I think we all know if you have encountered me on the internet how I feel about historical thirsting and so A League of Their Own was a profound experience for me.

Christina: Yeah. I just haven’t been letting myself think about it because I was like, there’s no way it’s going to be good. Don’t think about it. Don’t get excited.

Drew: Look, it’s a show that is operating on a certain tone and it’s not… It’s a very fun show. It is dealing with some serious things, but it has the tone of what I think A League of Their Own should have. I’m not saying it’s the greatest show ever, but it is just so much fun and so smart and it’s so good. It’s so, so good. And Roberta’s so good. Roberta. I don’t know her. I shouldn’t say that. I should have more respect for—

Christina: I love that.

Drew: Roberta Colindrez is so good in it and it just got me reflecting on the fact that first time I saw her was in Fun Home and then I Love Dick and then Vida and then this, and it’s just such a… I just feel like, I think a lot about how to build a career in this terrible industry as a queer person and how possible it is to do it on your own terms. And I know that she has other credits other than these things that I’m pulling out, but I really just feel like she’s managed to work on projects that are really queer and are really good. And she’s been hot along the way, which is also a really important thing I think.

Christina: Beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous.

Drew: She’s my crush of the week.

Christina: Hot. Yash, who do you have for us?

Yashwina: I have twofer because Amelia Earhart’s birthday was a couple weeks ago and Drew very kindly let me know that Myrna Loy is going to be part of the next Criterion collection feature, like the big drop. And so Myrna Loy, movie star from the ’30s, ’40s, ’50s, that’s kind of her career. She was a profound gay crush for me as a kid. And obviously Amelia Earhart was also a profound gay crush for me as a kid. I had her picture in my locker. It was in the fifth grade because—

Christina: Just heterosexual things happening left and right.

Yashwina: Noted heterosexual Yashwina Canter. But in talking to Drew about my favorite Myrna Loy movies coming to the Criterion channel, I also got to go back and revisit some photos that Myrna Loy took when she was promoting a movie she was in with Cary Grant, another noted heterosexual. But for these promotional photos, her character was a stunt pilot and she and Cary Grant both did promotional photos with Amelia Earhart and got to hang out with Amelia Earhart. And there are just some candids of them talking where I’m like, that’s flirtation. I’ve seen that before. And so they are both my crushes and I have proof that they met and in my heart, I’m just like, do we think that they—

Christina: Something a little fruity happened perhaps?

Yashwina: I’m just saying—

Christina: I love it.

Yashwina: —that I have theories.

Drew: I support these theories.

Christina: Absolutely.

Yashwina: Thank you.

Drew: I think we should talk less about what happened to Amelia Earhart and more about what happened to Amelia Earhart when she met Myrna Loy. That’s the real mystery surrounding Amelia Earhart.

Christina: That’s the real mystery we have to get to the bottom of. Absolutely.

Yashwina: I’m just saying, anyone who tries to convince me that Amelia Earhart was straight, I have follow up questions. I saw those photos. I know what flirtation looks like and I shan’t be bamboozled.

Christina: Yeah. I won’t stand for it. I won’t stand for anymore bamboozling. Simply no.

Drew: What about you, Christina?

Christina: Guys, I have a real hot take. My crush this week is Beyonce. It’s Beyonce.

Drew: Wow.

Yashwina: No one’s ever felt that before, Christina.

Christina: I’ve never felt that way about Beyonce before. Yeah. This album is so good.

Drew: It’s so good.

Christina: It’s unfairly good. It’s unfairly good to drop this in Leo season, first of all. It’s unfair to just drop an album of straight bangers in Leo season to make me an earth sign think, “Do I have to get up? Do I have to do something? Must I go out? Do I have to move my body in a way because Beyonce said shut up, go outside and have a good time?” Because that is cruel, but she’s right and I do. And every second of it is bangers. It is absolutely for homosexuals. The last minute of “Heated” is one of the gayest things I’ve just ever heard in my life. I think she’s a perfect person and I am both thrilled and furious with her for her dropping this hot fire album right into the middle of my summer.

Drew: I don’t know what to do about the fact that there’s still a pandemic. There’s monkeypox. All I want to do is go out and dance to this album and I need to find some outdoor dance spaces.

Christina: Yeah. That’s what she’s asking for I think. There needs to be a random summer rainstorm in the middle of this dance party, this outdoor dance party. It just needs to hit all the things. It’s just so good. She just really did it. And I don’t know what the other two were going to be. There’s going to be two more. It’s part one. I don’t know what this means.

Drew: I know.

Christina: She stresses me out, but she’s quite literally very good at what she does and for that, she gets to be my crush of the week, which is I’m sure the highest accolade she has ever received.

Drew: Well, this is my question for you. Because until this week I would’ve laughed anyone away, but some people have been so adamant about it that I just… I don’t know. I mean, X-Files. “I want to believe.” Where are you on bi Beyonce theory?

Christina: I would find it believable. I would find it believable. Is it going to make or break my life? Not really. Because again, I don’t know that lady. She lives in a very different world than I do. She doesn’t really make my day to day life.

Yashwina: I think if someone came out with news and it was confirmed, I would say more excitement than surprise. I’d be like, whoa. But in my heart it would be fake surprise. I would not be surprised with this in the slightest.

Drew: I just never let myself hope for it. And it’s because she just loves Jay-Z so much. But maybe she is that bisexual girl with the boyfriend who we all don’t really like and she’s like, “This is biphobic. I can’t come out because this is biphobia.” And we’re like, “No, no, no. If you were dating a different guy, maybe we’d embrace him more.”

Christina: We’d probably be fine. But then again, she did write the lyric, “It must be the cash because it ain’t your face.”

Drew: She sure did.

Christina: And for that, she is also America’s greatest standup comic so go off, queen.

Drew: Incredible. Yash, do you want to tell people where they can find you and your work?

Yashwina: You can find me on a little website called autostraddle.com or anywhere on the internet at Yashwina Canter. Y-A-S-H-W-I-N-A C-A-N-T-E-R. Mostly on Twitter but I’m trying to be fun on Instagram too.

Drew: It is the best dating app.

Christina: It’s hard to be fun on Instagram.

Yashwina: I love a challenge. If we’ve learned anything about my dating history today it’s that I love a challenge.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram, @WaitIsThisADate and you can email us waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar. And this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok, @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter, @c_gracet and on Instagram, @Christina_graceT. And you can find Autostraddle of course @Autostraddle.

Drew: And you can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com. The reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment hurriedly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on the case here. We don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): I feel like many times in my life I’ve been in what I would call a Jules and Jim. You could also call it just sort of a French new wave throuple, which is not a throuple in the actual sense of we’re all fucking each other. Or at least not regularly. But just like three people, two of them are dating, and there’s just a weird throuple codependence. I guess it also could be called the Alice, Tasha… Ooh, what’s the last person’s name? Honestly, I think it’s probably a good sign that I’m starting to forget some things about the original L Word.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Special Episode: Mailbag Minisode #1

Without our A+ members, there would be no Autostraddle. And without Autostraddle, there would be no Wait, Is This a Date? So this week on the podcast, we’re answering questions sent in by the A+ members who allow us to do what we do!

Questions range from how to have a first lesbian experience to how to be horny and demisexual. We give our best advice and if you’re thinking hmm these queers seem to know what they’re talking about then go ahead and send in your own question! We’ll be doing more mailbag minisodes and if you’re an A+ member, you can submit right here.

SHOW NOTES

+ Join A+!! What are you waiting for!!

+ The TIFF Bell Lightbox has been my second home in Toronto. Currently they’re doing a series on Satyajit Ray and another of contemporary Korean cinema.

+ I don’t know why Christina referenced this song but alas she did.

+ To illustrate how subtle my flirting was with my now girlfriend, for the first year that we followed each other on Instagram, this is as spicy as it got.

Screenshot from Instagram DM. March 8, 2021. You replied to their story: Wow swoon, response: Groucho Marx emoji

+ Join A+!!!

EPISODE

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

[special mailbag theme song plays]

Drew: And welcome to, Wait, Is This a Date? A Special Mailbag Minisode! Well, I feel like if you’re listening to this, you probably know what Wait, Is This a Date? is, and you know who we are, but real quick: Wait, Is This a Date?, Autostraddle podcast, we talk about sex and dating in queer spaces. My name is Drew Gregory, I’m a queer trans woman and a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker.

Christina: Gorgeous, gorgeous. I’m Christina Tucker, I’m also a writer for Autostraddle and podcaster all over the internet places. I am a gay Black woman. We have joined together in this union to bring you answers to questions that you have sent us, which is gorgeous. And I think we’re really excited because, I don’t know, I love an advice moment.

Drew: Me too. Sometimes I feel like I’m more qualified to receive advice than to give it and sometimes I feel really ready and geared up to give advice. And right now I’m feeling ready to give advice. What’s fun about this Mailbag episode is that all the people who sent in questions are A+ members. If you don’t know what that means, A+ is Autostraddle’s membership program because so much of what we do is free, but we’re an independent queer media publication, which there aren’t many of left and we heavily rely on our A+ members. We’re so grateful to them.

Christina: Yeah, here’s the thing team. We don’t have a lot of indie queer media, as Drew said. In being an A+ member, you get to support indie queer media and you also get the added benefit of being able to ask us questions and we will answer them live on the air for you. So I’m just looking at the strategy here and I’m thinking like, there’s no lose, it’s a win-win across the board.

Drew: It’s as cheap as $4 a month so that’s like—

Christina: It’s 400 pennies, that’s nothing.

Drew: Wow. I mean, that makes it sound like a lot more than it is. I want to just say that 400 pennies is not—

Christina: But what is a penny?

Drew: Sure. It’s just not the best way I think to describe $4 as far as trying to like pitch it as not that much, because I’m just picturing a lot of pennies right now.

Christina: Okay. I didn’t know that you loved pennies so much, but now I know that about you and that’s really helpful.

Drew: Should we answer some of these questions?

Christina: Yeah, let’s answer some questions.

Drew: Okay. We have two that were written out and one that’s a voice memo. So let’s start with one of the written out ones, do a little voice memo sandwich. Yeah, it would be because the bread is the reading.

Christina: Yeah, the bread is us reading.

Drew: Cool. And this is from Kat, who is an A+ member. “I burned out and basically had a mental breakdown in 2020. #relatable I quit my job in a big city and moved halfway across the country to move back in with my parents. I haven’t really seen or talked to many people in my hometown since my high school days and I kind of burnt some friend bridges when I left my previous city. Also, I intentionally didn’t date anyone for a few years pre-pandemic. I was working on my ‘mental health,'” that’s in quotes so I don’t know how that changes it. “I was working on my ‘mental health,’ although obviously that didn’t work out,” upside down face. “So now I don’t really have any local friends and have been single for several years and I don’t even know how to start changing this. I would love to make some pals and maybe put my mouth on another person’s mouth or put my butt on another person’s butt!!! Or even just get out of my parents’ house sometimes, honestly, but also COVID is unfortunately still a thing and I’m socially anxious at the best of times. So what do I do? How do I do it? Thank you!!!” many exclamation points.

Christina: This is hard. Making friends as an adult is hard, making friends in the hometown in which you grew up as an adult, I can imagine, is an extra level of difficulty on top of that. I’m trying to think about what I would do if I moved back to my parents’ house and how I would find people and friends. And I honestly feel like I would just be very vocal on the internet about like where I was located, contacting people who I knew lived around there or even had friends that lived around there. I would be really reaching out in my communities to be like… We’re a small community, right? The gays, we know people everywhere. So who knows people? Where are they located? Can I find people in my space? Because that’s really what it’s all about. It’s just like, you got to ask for it because sometimes it’s not going to come to you.

Drew: Yeah, that’s really good advice because I can think of dating apps obviously being a great place to both meet people to have sex with and also friends —that’s mostly what I’ve gotten out of dating apps is new friendships. I can also think of suggesting finding activities to do, which I get it’s tricky in the pandemic, but there are maybe some things you could feel comfortable with depending on your boundaries with that. But I think, Christina, that’s a really good point that so often the way we make connections is by seeking them out and being like… When you went to high school, was there someone who was cool and is still around in your hometown that you never really got to know, but you just vaguely know? That could be someone you reach out to.

I don’t know how queer your hometown is, I don’t know enough about what your hometown looks like to know how likely it is that there’s random queer people who you vaguely know, but they’re there. So even if the person you reach out to is straight, maybe they know someone and it’s just about being like, who do you want to see? I’m in Toronto for the summer and very much was thinking about like, who do I know who lives here? Who’s just social media friends, who’s whatever who can I like meet up with? Which is sometimes a vulnerable thing to reach out and it sometimes can be even harder than with dating, but what’s the worst that can happen? Someone says no or someone says, “Yeah, sure. But I’m really busy, maybe soon,” and then ghosts you. These things aren’t fun but I do think ultimately the more of a social life you can have in general, the more likely it will lead to the dating aspect of that because you just meet people through people.

Christina: Yeah. And I think, especially thinking about trying to find friends and find people who are interested in the stuff you’re interested in, what are you interested in? What are your interests? What of your hobbies are happening in your hometown? Is there a hiking group? I don’t know. I’m just literally thinking about my hometown, there would be some sort of queer women hiking group that I would not go on, but one could. Is there something like that you can get involved in and meet people out in the world and out in space and who you already know share a hobby of yours? That’s a fun way to meet people.

Drew: I would also add to extend a certain amount of kindness towards yourself as you do these things, because it’s hard in general, but I do think the pandemic makes it even harder. I’ve spent so many hours since getting to Toronto at the TIFF Bell Lightbox, which is a cool theater here. And I was just thinking about how if it wasn’t a pandemic, I absolutely would’ve chatted with people sitting next to me, maybe met people there. We’re seeing the same thing, that’s an activity or an interest that I have. But because we have masks on and interacting with strangers is still a bit fraught, I haven’t really talked to anyone there. And so it is harder now, that’s absolutely real.

And so if you go to something or try to meet up with someone and you’re trying to make these things happen for yourself, I think a really great way to not lose hope and to not feel bad is to understand that it will take time. And that’s not to make it be intimidating or to feel daunting, but it’s okay that—

Christina: It’s hard.

Drew: It might take some time, but it is very possible and will happen for you.

Christina: Yeah, and it’s not a reflection on who you are as a person. It is just a reality of the life that we’re living. And that is hard and you are allowed to sit with that feeling and be like, “This kind of sucks,” because like, yeah, it’s going to suck sometimes. And that is hard, but doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person or that you’re destined to be friendless and destined to not put your butt on another person’s butt for the rest of your life.

Drew: Ready to move on?

Christina: Crushed it. Perfect advice givers. No notes, 10/10.

Drew: This is a voice memo from anonymous.

Anonymous: Hey, Drew and Christina. So I need your help because I am a pandemic lesbian and very much like a pandemic dog that you adopt, I missed some really key socialization during my formative years and I’m trying really hard to make up for it now. However, between COVID variants and chronic pain, I have not really gotten out with friends or on dates nearly as much as I’d like to, but now I have some treatment options for my pain so I am looking forward to kicking off my slutty gay puberty. But I also want to shit bricks, honestly, when I think about it because I’ve been celibate for the past three years now. And prior to that, I was only with cis men, which means I’ve never had a sexual experience that I wanted to have. And that’s its own little lowercase trauma for me to discuss with my therapist, but I’ve gotten comfortable with desire by myself, but I always talk myself out of it when it’s time to engage with that side of myself in the wild.

So I was wondering if you have any advice for a lesbian Daphne Bridgerton who’s trying to get to the wildest dreams instrumental sex scene, but make it gay part. Thank you.

Christina: Wow, that’s really gorgeous. That is beautiful.

Drew: First of all, congrats. As overwhelmed as you may feel and as anxious as you may feel, congrats, because you have so much excitement and pleasure in your future. That alone should help ease some of the anxieties that you obviously have because we’ve all had them at different parts— Or maybe not all of us, but at least I can speak for myself. Yeah, it’s stressful to be out for the first time, out and dating for the first time. And it’s also exciting and I think that’s my first piece of advice is if you can hold onto the excitement more, I think it will both motivate you to take the risks you need to take and also I think will make it all a bit more fun. And that’s really important because I think dating should be fun, especially this kind of dating, especially this kind of exploring. It’s the best.

Christina: Yeah. And I know it might feel like, I don’t know, uncool or nerdy or something to be very clear about this being your kind of queer puberty, but you’re certainly not alone in this, right? I think we’ve seen in all of our social medias, all of the people who have taken this time to explore sexuality and gender during the pandemic and you getting to have this moment of being like, “I got to discover some really cool shit about myself and now I want to share that with other people,” I do not think that will be rejected by the community as a whole. I think you’ll be welcomed with open arms, very Creed with arms wide open energy, except not religious because that’s awful. And I think if you just on your dating profiles or when you’re talking to people, just say like, “Yeah, this is a new experience for me, one I’m really excited about.” Again, it’s all just about communicating your desires and expectations for other people so they understand how to approach you in a space.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t know about you Christina, but I’ve definitely had sex with people who either had no experiences with people who weren’t cis men or had very few. And I do think the biggest difference between the positive experiences and the less positive experiences were the people who were very ready and very sure of themselves which it sounds like she seems very sure of her identity as a lesbian and that to me, there would be no question about having an experience with that person. I wouldn’t care. It’s like, oh, that person is here and ready to do this thing. And the only times I think that people get frustrated or there’s a bad reputation for people who are exploring or whatever, I think that’s so much more connected to people who want things to stay secret and aren’t quite ready. And even that I have compassion towards, but this doesn’t feel like that at all.

And so it’s just exciting. I don’t think the vast majority of people would have any issue with it and would just sort of like meet you where you’re at. And there could be something fun about it too. I don’t know. I definitely enjoyed some of my experiences that were like that a lot, just from the place of it’s a real trust that someone’s giving you to get to be there with them as they sort of explore these things and experience these things for the first time. It’s just like, it’s just really fun.

And as far as making it happen in tangible ways, I do think a lot of it is just to push past the anxiety that you’re feeling and do the things that we’re going to say. Like, yeah, get on a dating app if you want to get on a dating app, go to queer nights, events, yeah, it’s a pandemic still so that is challenging but there’s lots of different scales of those things. There’s things that are outside, find a place that you feel comfortable with. And if you don’t then yeah, maybe it is going on solo dates with people that you meet on dating apps or people who you meet on like Instagram, Twitter, take those thirst traps, TikTok. The internet is one big dating app.

Christina: Gorgeous.

Drew: And just be thirsty.

Christina: First of all, gorgeous advice. Just Be Thirsty. Drew Gregory 2022. And also if you are not a person who is particularly on social media or invested social media in the way that Drew and I’s deeply online brains are, if you have friends who are queer and you’re like, “Do you guys have anybody to set me up with?” This is the resource that I think we should be tapping into. If you’re a person who’s like, “I don’t want to do dating apps,” I get it, I hear you. But just ask your friends, like, “Who can I go out with?” I guarantee you, your friends have at least one or two people that they’re like, “Actually now that you mention it,” because that’s how friends’ brains work. And that’s what friendship is really, entrusting your desires with a pal to be like, “Yeah, I can find somebody who you’re going to at least have a good time with.”

Drew: And like I was saying in the previous question, if the first date you go on doesn’t go well, if the first sexual experience you have doesn’t go well, just don’t let that stop you from continuing to throw yourself into this wonderful world. Not everything’s going to be perfect. There might be some growing pains, but the more that you can just sort of take it all as part of the experience and enjoy it, I think the better. Honestly knowing our community, I don’t know you at all and I’m like a year from now, you’re going to be in a relationship.

Christina: Absolutely, a year is so generous. I was like, “Baby, in six months, you’re going to be in a relationship,” it’s cool. And if you are anything like me, when I came out and started dating, I think the thing for me that was the most shocking was I was like, “Oh, this is fun,” because I’m doing the dating that I want to be doing and not feeling awful or annoyed by it. I was just like, “Oh, this is so much easier. This is where I should have been from jump.” So now you get to experience that. And I think you’re just going to have a good time and I’m really looking forward to it. Please update us in six months, I want to know who’s your girlfriend and when are you guys moving in?

Alright, this is from anonymous. So anonymous A+ member, God bless you. “Historically, I have found the people I date in person where we slow burn for a while before anything started. This hasn’t been working right now and I’m trying dating apps, but I’m demisexual and it’s a disaster. I have said I’m demisexual in said apps, but still anytime people flirt with me over text, my knee jerk reaction is, ‘Ew, you don’t know me,’ and I end up ghosting. Should I just give up on dating apps? Do I try to meet in person ASAP and tell the people I’m looking for the slow burn dynamic of a romantic drama that takes three seasons for them to kiss? What did I do in a past life to make me so horny but so, so demisexual?”

This is my favorite. I love this. Just asking, “What did I do in a past life?” Is really beautiful. I think it is important to note nor Drew or I are demisexual, though Drew, I feel like you have some demisexual energies happening.

Drew: Yeah, that’s fair. I do think that I can have casual sex, but I definitely enjoy it more when it’s in the context of like a different kind of… it’s not the three season romantic drama, but it’s the one night magic romantic drama, which I guess that’s its own version of that. And yeah, I mean, I also have never really had much luck with dating apps maybe for similar reasons. And I don’t think you need to give up on dating apps, right? I think it’s a good thing to recognize that it’s maybe not the space that works best for you. It’s tricky because you said that you’re communicating, but maybe people who you communicate to that you’re demisexual don’t fully know what that means. So maybe it would be more effective to both say you’re demisexual and in your bio say the funny, charming thing you said to us, that you’re looking for someone to have a three season slow burn romance with. That communicates so much.

And as someone who, even if I might be slower to hook up, I might still like flirting with strangers. If I saw that on an app and what I was looking for was to flirt with someone that night or to meet up with them and hook up soon or whatever, I would be like, “Oh, this person isn’t for me.” And if I was looking for something more serious, I’d be like, “Oh cool. This is what I’m looking for.” I think that would maybe communicate more to me than demisexual because that can mean slightly different things to different people. So I think really being clear about what it is that you are looking for.

Christina: Yeah. I was going to say quite literally the same thing, because I think that little anecdote you included is so charming and says so much about your familiarity with pop culture and the way that TV shows and books and the trope of slow burn generally, that says so much to me about who you are as a person that I feel like it is a perfect dating app little anecdote to slide in there.

And I think also just reminding yourself that, yes, if a stranger texts me, I might knee jerk be like, “Nope, I don’t want to speak to you,” knowing that about yourself is super helpful and reminding yourself that this is just a knee jerk reaction, it does not mean yay or nay on this person immediately. You can sit with that tension and work through it by yourself. But I think also you’re very right in maybe moving to in person conversation before way too long of the texting and the messaging, that might be the better choice for you. I think it’s the better choice for everybody, frankly. I think just as quick as you can move to an in person interaction is for the better, but you know that, so do what you can with that information.

Drew: You also can communicate… I mean, I don’t know what you mean by flirting, but if I want to date someone more seriously, I don’t really like to sext before we meet. And I know a lot of people, we’ve talked about this in our sexting episode, that some people are very different than that, but I’ve definitely cut off flirting and managed to do it in ways that didn’t offend the other person, didn’t break the energy or the banter that we were building up and just was sort of like, “Oh, we’ve reached my boundary, maybe later.” I think there’s just ways to do it where you make sure the person doesn’t feel like they did something wrong but you’re just being very clear and communicating that a boundary of yours has been reached. And if you don’t want to be that direct, I also think that you can theoretically reroute the conversation and the tone.

And I also think that something to know is that the kind of slow burn you’re describing often isn’t quite conducive to dating apps and where it is super conducive to is my good friend Instagram. And Instagram is the best place to… That’s my current relationship is just a year of we follow each other and we occasionally respond to each other’s stories and we were flirting, but not in a sexual way really. It was real, pretty mild in the beginning there. More like responding to things and chatting and getting to know each other and occasionally maybe responding to a thirst trap or whatever, but not that often. So Instagram is great and that’s why I do love it because it does allow me to have my little slow burns. Most of the time, my suggestion is like, “Look for hot people on Instagram.”

Christina: I do love that about you, that you’re just a steady and faithful servant of the Instagram flirting and bonding. And if you know that you find the people that you date in person, tap into those in person networks, who do you know that’s like mutual friends and their mutual friends? Look around your networks to find who you can find because you already know what works for you so tap into those resources.

Drew: I would also say a big piece of advice that I believe in is, and I’ve maybe even said this on the podcast before, but when you are swiping on dating apps, swiping right does not mean, “I am horny and someday I would like to have sex with this person.” Swiping right means if this person messages me tomorrow, I won’t groan. And I think that’s such a good thing to remember because as someone who’s also in the horny community, I think I can sometimes be swiping and be like, “Yeah, I mean, I would have sex with this person. I would have sex with this person maybe if we really hit it off.” And it’s like, okay, but maybe in that moment late at night, the next day when that person sends you like a, “Hey,” how are you going to feel? How are you going to feel?

And I do think that’s something that can help. I mean, you don’t get the same validation and that can be hard. And maybe you want to meet people romantically in person, but you just want to use dating apps for validation and for passing the time. And that’s also fine. So if you want to have that match and be like, “Oh, this person matched with me and oh, they’re flirting, I don’t want to talk to them,” and ghost, you can do that, that’s fine. But just then be aware of what you’re using it for and don’t feel upset if they’re not your perfect match.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s a really good way to think about dating apps.

Drew: Well, we did it.

Christina: We crushed it as ever.

Drew: If you have a question, we’re going to be doing more of these and so either if you are an A+ member, we love you, send us your questions. If you’re not an A+ member, become an A+ member and send us questions.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 207: Hygiene

Ah, bodies. These sacks of meat, bones and skin that we must drag our consciousness around in until we come up with a better way to get through this thing called life. And if that wasn’t embarrassing enough, we have to bring them with us on dates and hook ups! How do we deal with the reality of our human bodies while dating? Does anyone notice the tiny little things we stress out about as much as we do? What does the way we present our bodies to others say about our gender, our sexuality?

We knew we needed to dig into this and who better to do it with than the one and only Samantha Irby? If you have not read Sam’s work — fix that ASAP — you should know there are very few people who write about mortifying body related issues as well or as funnily as Sam. We get into what we are preoccupied about with regards to our own bodies, the likelihood that no one cares as much as we do and our personal shower routines. Warning: if you have any of us over, prepare to be out of hot water!

And for ONCE Drew brings a game that is not dragging me and my dating issues! What a treat!

SHOW NOTES:

+ Buy all of Sam’s books right now, you will laugh and laugh and you will never regret it, not for a moment. Also subscribe to her hilarious newsletter!

+ Hannah Enbinder did look incredible on Drag Race but this woman is simply a bottom or a bottom leaning switch.

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by @hannaheinbinder

+ The Last Movie Stars is currently streaming on HBO Max, but mostly Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward were an EXTREMELY hot couple.

+ If you are gay or transgender, Charles Barkley loves you!

+ *extremely Fleabag voice* Her arms…

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A post shared by patinamiller (@patinamiller)

+ I am probably not going to re-watch Madam Secretary but I do feel everyone should see Bebe Neuwirth, Patina Miller and Erich Bergen signing a version of “For The Longest Time” wherein they change the lyrics to reflect… the world economy? (???) Truly, it’s worth it simply to hear Patina sing “Sixty percent of global GDP” and “Oh what Trans-Pacific partners we will be” from Bebe.

EPISODE:

Sam: If you’re into it, then good for us both. And if you’re not, I get it. It’s cool. Don’t ever talk to me again, but like-

Christina: Sure.

Sam: I get it.

Christina: Please forget that I exist and let’s never speak of this again.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? Is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the one, some might say the only question, wait, is this a date?

Drew: The most important question.

Christina: Yeah, I was trying to think of other important questions and I can’t think of a single damn one.

Drew: Not today. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker and a queer trans woman.

Christina: Oh, that was gorgeous. That was easy breezy-

Drew: Concise-

Christina: … beautiful-

Drew: Tight.

Christina: … concise. Let’s see if I can match you. My name’s Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer for Autostraddle, amongst other places, podcaster and I am a black gay woman. Brag. Go off me. Okay. She’s on fire.

Drew: Yeah. I really love that by episode six, seven of the season, seven. We’re like we know who we are. We’re saying it quickly.

Christina: Also by episode seven of our second season, like, what were we doing all of first season? We have no idea, who were we?

Drew: Exploring our identities.

Christina: Ugh, my least favorite thing to do. Self reflection?. I’m all set. Speaking of self reflection. I feel like you have a game for me and if we’re going by your past games, they tend to drag me a little bit. So-

Drew: Yes.

Christina: How? How today?

Drew: So I decided that I’ve been pretty tough on you in our past game.

Christina: Thank you.

Drew: So I was going to take a break from roasting you and just like have a fun one.

Christina: Okay. I’m excited!

Drew: So we’re going to play a classic with a twist. It is, would you rather, but specifically with queer celebrities and specifically with queer experiences.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: It’s going to make sense. It’s not complicated.

Christina: I love your conceptual brain. Let’s go.

Drew: Okay. Would you rather have a 48 hour first date with Gillian Anderson or Cynthia Nixon?

Christina: Ooh, that is tough. Those are two kinds of kooky white women, which are, not to brag, something I’m pretty good at dealing with. Now, something in my gut is saying Cynthia, but I don’t know why.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: I think it’s just a gut feeling. Yeah. I don’t know. I’m just, I’m going with my gut and I don’t know that I can explain it.

Drew: I thought you might say that. And my theory for that is that a 48 hour date with Cynthia Nixon seems a lot more mellow than a 48 hour date with Gillian Anderson.

Christina: Maybe that’s it-

Drew: It feels more your speed.

Christina: I do feel like Gillian would be like, let’s go outside and I’d be like, well, let’s talk about that.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Why?

Drew: Okay. Next, moving on, moving on, moving on. So would you rather Sara Ramirez or Kate Moennig build you a bookshelf while you flirted and brought them refreshments?

Christina: I’m going to have to say Sara, but only if I could also request that they like maybe sing lightly for me. Lightly.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: Not a lot, not a ton, but like come on The Voice, The Voice alone.

Drew: You know, I think they might do that for you.

Christina: Fingers crossed.

Drew: Next one, causing a little bit of drama here. Would you rather go on a romantic date to a Broadway show with Cherry Jones or Holland Taylor?

Christina: Wow. Of Sarah Paulson’s ex and current girlfriend. That is hard. I kind of feel like Holland, I think Holland.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: But then on the other hand, consider Cherry Jones. That is a challenge. Damn, Sarah Paulson’s a lucky gal.

Drew: I’ll let her know you said that.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. When you text her next, let her know. I think it’s going to be Holland. I don’t know.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: I just feel like I want to hang out with that energy.

Drew: Okay. Would you rather be the plus one at the Oscars for Jodie Foster or Kristen Stewart?

Christina: Jodie because I feel like Kristen’s going to make me do stuff after, and I know Jodie will also just wants to go home and lie down and Kristen’s like, let’s hit a party. Let’s get I’m like, no, let’s not. We already did one very big event today, babe. Let’s take a nap.

Drew: Fair enough. Would you rather have a romantic meal cooked for you by Melissa King or get styled by Stacy London in a sexual way?

Christina: So this is an attack on me and my person and everything that I’ve ever stood for. The 14 year old and me, I’m going to have to give it to my girl, Stacy, because she has, that-

Drew: Wow.

Christina: She and that gray streak have been with me from 2004 on and that’s beautiful.

Drew: That’s a long term relationship.

Christina: It is.

Drew: Okay. A few more. Would you rather be a unicorn for Niecy Nash and Jessica Betts or Queen Latifah and Eboni Nichols?

Christina: Got to be Queen Latifah, got to be. It’s the queen, like what am I. It’s Dana Owens, AKA Queen Latifah like I have to for science, for the community I feel like I have to do this.

Drew: Sure, sure. Yeah.

Christina: That’s so hard. I’m maybe thinking about that until I die, actually.

Drew: I was pretty proud of that one. Okay. You’re a famous bottom. Would you rather try topping with Tommy Dorfman or Hannah Einbinder?

Christina: Tommy. I feel like I could top Tommy. I do not feel like I could top Hannah.

Drew: Great. That was inspired by when Hannah an Einbinder was, I don’t watch Hacks. Maybe this is why, but when she was the Drag Race guest, I saw a tweet that was like, oh my God, her strap is so big. And I was like, that girl was giggling all through that episode around those queens. Where are you reading top energy?

Christina: Yeah, no. Game recognized game. And I can confidently say that girl is a bottom, at least a switch.

Drew: Sure. Okay. Last one. Would you rather have an affair with Lena Waithe or Cynthia Erivo?

Christina: For you to bring this up to me at this time in my life, where I stand at such a precipice between the two of them. God, who is going to annoy me least. That’s really hard to say, they’re both so annoying in such different ways. My gut is saying Cynthia, but maybe so I could be like, what is your plan for the Wicked movie? What is-

Drew: Wow.

Christina: What’s your, I want to get in on the ground floor with some details of that. So maybe that’s the way I can do it.

Drew: Wow. I love, I love that as a reason. A very you reason.

Christina: I don’t feel proud of that answer, but it’s what I have.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: It’s who I am.

Drew: Sure. Well, thanks so much for playing with me.

Christina: Well, thanks so much for giving me the opportunity to play with you. My dear friend.

Drew: Yeah, no problem.

Christina:D o you think it’s time that we get into the meat of our conversation?

Drew: I think it might be.

Christina: I didn’t like saying meat there. I really regretted it kind of the instant it flew out of my mouth, but you know, I think fun. I feel like our guest probably understands the feeling of saying something and regretting it, the instant it flies out of their mouth. So I would love if our guests would introduce themselves to the world, to us, to everyone.

Sam: Hi, my name is Samantha Irby and I am a noted bisexual.

Christina: Wow. Thank you for bringing that into the space.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: Noted bisexual.

Sam: Just trying to ruin it right out of the gate. Just trying to make you hate me from the moment you hear my voice.

Christina: You know, we have been just dancing on the line of people hating us. So…

Sam: I’m here to push it all the way over.

Christina: All the way over. And our topic today, as I described it to Sam, when we were texting about this was, bodies are disgusting. They are something that everybody has and we have to deal with them in dating. And then I checked our Google doc and then I was like, oh, I guess like hygiene was like the nice clean way to put that. But I said, nah, for Sam, I’m just saying bodies are disgusting.

Sam: Yes. If you said hygiene to me, I immediately would be like, oh no, did Christina smell me at some point? Is that what we’re talking about?

Drew:This is an intervention.

Christina: Yeah. Sam, we brought you here today…

Sam: Drew’s like, I don’t really know you, but I’d like to talk.

Christina: Have something to say. Yeah, bodies are awful. And they are, as I was thinking about this topic, I was kind of like, that is something that does preoccupy a lot of my mental space and energy is like, what is my body doing? How can I buff it and shine it to its best at all times? And I do think it is something that preoccupies me a lot in, especially in a dating space when I am bravely dating, which I am, as we know, not doing at the moment. Yeah. They’re gross. I don’t know. Drew, what do you, how do you feel about bodies?

Drew: Is it a smell thing for you? Is that what you’re preoccupied with?

Christina: Okay. So currently let’s just really dive in. So currently it is a smell thing for me because I got COVID famously in December, lost my smell and taste. Took a long time for it to come back and now I can smell myself and I’m convinced I smell all the time. No one can else can smell it. Very strange place to be in. I’m always like, I smell like rotting garbage and everyone’s like, can’t smell that at all. That’s just you. Very strange. Now I’m constantly just like I smell, I smell. I know it. Everybody’s thinking it. And everyone’s like, no, one’s thinking it. Stop asking us. Be normal for one fucking second. And I’m like, I can’t. Nope. I smell bad.

Sam: You probably smell just fine.

Christina: Probably. But there’s no way to know. I think I smell bad.

Sam: That’s hard.

Christina: That’s hard. I would rather just not be able to smell.

Sam: It’s hard when like the inside of your nose is conspiring against you.

Christina:Y es. It feels like my body is-

Sam: But there’s something you can do about that except like ride it out. And that’s terrible. Like I imagine you could go to like an ENT and be like, Hey doctor, the inside of my nose is wrong, but what are they going to do?

Christina: Yeah. There’s not a ton. I’ve obviously been reading a lot about the science of smell. And they’re all just kind of like, yeah, noses do be weird. Tough to say. Anyway. Not helpful.

Sam: You know, like in Silence of the Lambs, when Jodie Foster like puts that stuff on her nose, so she doesn’t smell.

Drew: Yeah.

Sam: You could walk around with that on your face-

Christina: I could-

Sam: … all day.

Christina: … but then I would have something weird on my face all day.

Sam:You would look like you had a snotty nose and that would-

Christina: Exactly.

Sam: That’d be a different kind of disgusting.

Drew: Your anxiety is that someone else is smelling. Like you don’t care that you smell, you care more that other people-

Christina: No, it drives me nuts that I smell.

Drew: Oh, okay.

Christina: I don’t want to smell it either. But it’s also annoying that like, I guess, if I’m the only one who can smell it, I guess that’s fine. I guess. But I would prefer to never think about that. I would prefer to smell like a field of flowers or whatever all the time.

Drew: Sure. Sure.

Sam: Which is what you smelled like before COVID?

Christina: I think, I thought, what do I know now? Nothing is true. Everything is false. Scales are falling for my eyes.

Drew: Samantha, when you’re dating, is that something that you’re anxious about, like body smells?

Sam: Not the smell. So I always feel like I have an unwieldy body. Like, I don’t know what I’m doing with it. Like I’m not a smooth person, both literally and figuratively, but I never feel like I’m in complete control of all of my limbs. And when dating, I’m just like, I don’t like the, you know moving around a new person and them like watching how you walk or how you grab a glass or how you do, that is the body stuff that vexes me at first. And then when we move into the seeing and touching body phase, then it’s just a full on, everything about my body is wrong. What about this weird patch? What?

Okay. So my main problem is that I do not have, and this is clinical depression talking, but I do not have the capacity to do all of the things that you are like supposed to do for your body. I’m like, I can… Like, it’s why I shave my hair off because I’m like, oh, I can’t be like styling hair every day. Right. And then it’s like, well I also can’t shave. And like I can exfoliate, but not as often as you should probably exfoliate. So it’s all that stuff. It’s like, this person is going to have to view the partial decay underneath my clothes. And that’s the stressful stuff to me. Like I don’t pumice my heels enough, and someone is going to have to see that. So I can’t even get to the smells because I’m too busy being like, you know what stalactites are hanging off the parts of my body I don’t look at.

Christina: Not a stalactite. Not that.

Sam: Like, what are the, where are the crusty patches that I can’t see? And like I have, there’s one in the middle of my back and it’s like, anytime I have to introduce that to someone I’m like it’s eczema, but I don’t have a limb that reaches back there to deal with it. So just don’t look. Sex with the lights off, with the sun blocked out.

Christina: How cave like, can we make it in here?

Sam: Yes. Truly. We need blackout curtains. We need to be under a black blanket. Just don’t look at any of it.

Christina: Drew, can you, are you normal? What’s going on with your brain?

Drew: Well, no. I mean, I have a lot of anxiety and OCD and all sorts of things. But I would say, it’s interesting because right now my partner has the most sensitive nose of anyone I’ve ever met ever. And we started dating during the pandemic. And so it was over FaceTime and we didn’t meet for way longer into whatever relationship we were starting to form, than I usually would. And that was like a big anxiety of like, I knew that about her because we had talked a lot and I was like, what if she just hates the way I smell? And luckily that didn’t happen. But like I did switch deodorant to a natural deodorant. And that’s the thing, what’s interesting is that she like likes body smells.

Christina: Oh, it’s the fake smells.

Drew: It’s the fake smells that really bother her. So it’s actually completely changed my relationship to my like body odor and my anxiety around my body odor, because my partner who’s like the main person I’m trying to impress, like is happier days that I don’t wear deodorant. And I’ve switched to natural deodorant, which I never would’ve done. I would’ve felt so anxious about smelling and like other people in the world haven’t seemed to have an issue with it. I maybe, I don’t know you were, you saw me recently or not recently, but when we were in New York, if I smelled, please tell me and then, it sucks for my girlfriend. But I’ll just-

Christina: Yes. I definitely wouldn’t have told you in person when we were hanging out, but I would’ve waited a couple of months to do so via our podcast to be like, Drew-

Drew: Well, you got to have content, you know?

Christina: You want to talk about April and the way you smelled?

Drew: But, yeah, so like, I don’t know, I feel less anxious about it, but also like still breath, like she can smell. I don’t know. I am sometimes a little lazy when it comes to brushing my teeth in the morning. Like sometimes it, if I don’t have any plans, I might wait till after lunch instead of after breakfast. And like, I need to get better about that because like I can tell. But I don’t know. Also, I think I used to be so much more anxious about body smells and body weirdness before I started having more casual sex. And I think I just sort of got, I just was like, we’re all so weird.

And like bodies are all so weird and like the things that gross me out about my body, like even if it’s like a one night stand, like even if it’s not someone who loves me, it’s just someone who wants to have sex with me. Like I don’t know, like for the most part, sex is gross and we’re just like, we’ve chosen to be there with each other and if we’re horny enough, like we’re there and we’re in it and things that would be so gross in a non horny environment are like hot to me right now.

So I guess I’m just going to have to like turn that same sort of gross acceptance towards myself. It’s a journey. But I do think that I’m so much less anxious about hygiene and random, weird body stuff than I used to be. Yeah, body hair is still the thing though. That’s I’m, if I’m thinking about it, that’s the one that I still get pretty like, what I’m sure is like connected to trans stuff and like dysphoria stuff. And like, I just, if I could have any magical power, this is very selfish of me because I don’t think I could like save the world with it, but I would love to have the ability to grow and reduce hair all over, at will.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: That would be such a great skill to have.

Christina: That would be nice. I mean I did recently say that I would like my body to be as smooth as my brain is. So that’s like where I’m headed. Like I would just like to just be like a slippery little dolphin in the brain and also skin wise. But I do often try to remember that like all of the things that I am always wrapped up about my own body, my own weirdness, whatever, at no point have I ever been in the process of having sex with someone and they have said, pause ma’am-

Sam: Right.

Christina: This is horrible to look at. And I’d like it to go away. Like that has never happened to me.

Drew: No.

Christina: And I know that logically, but yet, but yet and still, and still.

Sam: I mean, that’s the thing. If you could pop your brain out of your head for a minute, like it would be so much better because that’s where all the anxiety comes from. I have zero lived experience to point to like someone saying something to me, it’s all me, it’s all in my head. So I have been married for like six years, I have a wife and-

Christina: Brag.

Sam: Well, I mean… Sorry.

Christina: Bring the wife to the pod. Wow. Wow. Wow. Fair enough.

Sam: I mean, here’s the thing. I have to bring her up in case she listens and then it’s like, you went on a podcast and talked about what it’s like to date when you’ve had wife for six years. But I also bring her up to say that even when you’ve been with someone for a long time, and I know that she knows like what all my parts look like, it still doesn’t free me of some of the body stuff. Right. I’m like, am I put together enough for her? Is my skin still soft? Have I stopped doing things because I’m like, what’s she going to do about it? And the answer to that is, yes, but so far she has been polite or caring, we’ll decide which later, but she has been like polite enough to not be like, oh you really, you’re really relaxed in this marriage. Good for you.

Christina: You ever thought about paying a bit more attention in this here marriage? No.

Sam: If she said that, I’d be like, you know what? You are correct. I have not had a pedicure in three years. Let me, I’ll go. Yes. I’ll-

Christina: You know what, let me get myself there.

Sam: Thank you for pointing that out to me. I’ll go.

Drew: I mean, I know where those voices come from, for me. And like it’s society, sure. But like it’s my mom and my sister. Like when I say I don’t have evidence of people, it’s like, yeah, I don’t have any evidence in my dating life of people being like, you’re disgusting. Why do you have a body? Why are you human being? But I sure have evidence from like my childhood and like my sister put more pressure on herself than on the people around, like than on me and my mom put more pressure on herself than on me and my sister. So it’s like coming down from society to them, to me. But those are the voices in my head. It’s like imagining, just like my judgemental sister, like saying that I smell and just like the horror that I feel about that.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, yeah, definitely. I do think there is, there are moments where I’m like, oh that’s not your actual voice. No, that’s your mother’s voice. How helpful is that in this scenario? Realistically? Probably not very helpful. But also I think because it is like such a weird like anxiety response. I never really think about other people’s bodies nearly as much as I think about my own.

Sam: Ever.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I couldn’t give, go off. Do whatever your body do. That is not, that’s simply not my business. Even if we are in some sort of sexual experience. Wow. I sound like an absolute virgin. Like that simply — I’m still not preoccupied with it. I’m probably going to be thrilled that it’s on the table. But my own body. That’s the thing.

Sam: That’s the one that keeps you up at night, really.

Christina: It’s bad.

Sam: I have this like game that, it’s not a game, but this like thing I have to say to myself all the time that I don’t know, maybe it will be helpful or you will think like I really have a problem. But I remind myself constantly like that I’m the guest at the wedding, not the a bride. Right. Nobody’s looking at me, nobody’s thinking about me. Nobody’s worrying about what I’m doing as much as I’m worried about what I’m doing. And that is sort of how, that is my coping mechanism for like kind of getting out of my head a little bit about like, what do I look like? What am I dressed like? Do I have the right thing on? I’m just like, you’re a guest, you’re off to the side. No one cares. Do your little thing in the corner and no one’s going to notice you. And that has been helpful to me. Although it never like fully shuts the-

Christina: Shuts the demons up.

Sam: Like, the “you stink and look weird” voice all the way down. It turns the volume down, but it doesn’t turn it off.

Christina: Yeah. I can’t tell if that would be helpful or if I would also simultaneously be like, so you’re telling me I’m not the center of attention. Interesting. I have a couple of notes there.

Sam: I’m not the star of this movie, please. I’m the star.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I also think that we don’t have to pretend as if there aren’t things about, the same way that there are physical appearance things that attract some people and repel other people. Some of us might have smells that we’re trying to not think about because we want to have better self-esteem, but does someone out there really would gross them out or really repel them or whatever. And you know what it’s like, okay then that’s not who you date.

Sam: Yeah. Yeah.

Drew: Which isn’t to say that look like, if you want to get a new deodorant or you want to like work on whatever it is about yourself that you feel weird about, or someone commented on like, sure you can. But I guarantee that even if you don’t, someone out there, you click with and they like the way you smell-

Sam: Yes.

Drew: And they like the way you move and they like the way you carry yourself and they like all of the scabs on your back. Like, they’re just like, that I think is also part of it is being like that’s part of dating.

Sam: Yeah.

Drew: And we hate this idea that we could have sex with someone and then they could like be grossed out by us. Like that’s such a mortifying, like I’m just thinking about, it’s like such a, but it’s like, I’m sure it’s happened.

Sam: Yeah.

Drew: And I’m sure. And because I know it’s happened to me. And I’d say the deeper thing is like, I’m not judging those people. Most of those people, I just was like usually an emotional thing. Like usually it was like maybe if I was really in love with that person or really, really into that person, I would’ve been more into their weird body stuff and they’re fluids and all their things. But like it’s just case by case like most things in dating.

Christina: I do love the idea of being like, Ooh baby, I’m into your fluids. Ooh. Yeah.

Drew: Well, you know.

Christina: Fluided up.

Sam: That’s the thing though. If you really like someone like on every other level, it’s like, well I’ll put up with that gross thing.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Or actively let, I mean like we can get like, I don’t know. I mean, there’s definitely like thing-

Sam: I love that gross thing. Okay. I’ll change it.

Sam: I’m obsessed with that gross thing.

Christina: That gross thing is consuming my brain. It’s all I think about, is grossness. Various grossness is. Yeah, I mean that is absolutely the other side of it is like, there are just a ton of people in the world and like your weird thing is gross to some people and it’s not gross to everybody. Like you’re not going to be everything for everybody. Something that I tell myself a lot, which is hard to do. But-

Christina: It is a fact, I suppose, sometimes.

Sam: A thing that I have to work on in therapy a lot, not to bring up therapy, but-

Christina: It’s a gay podcast. You have to.

Sam: Okay guys, this is a safe space is like this idea that you can’t control someone’s perception of you. And in my specific case, it’s like, I want to know that everyone thinks I’m nice. I want to know that people like me, but like I can’t control. I can’t control that. I just have to let go of the idea and let people experience me and have their takeaway be whatever it is and not like invest in what that takeaway is. And I guess it’s the same thing with bodies. It’s like, if you’re into it then good for us both. And if you’re not, I get it. It’s cool. Don’t ever talk to me again, but like.

Christina: Sure.

Sam: I get it.

Christina: Please forget that I exist-

Sam: Yes.

Christina: And let’s never speak of this again.

Sam: Yeah. Let’s pretend we’ve never met. Thank you.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I’m interested in talking about, I know that like I’ve dated a wide variety of gender presentations and I sometimes think about like how much I care about some of these like hygiene presentation type body things, depending on, I don’t know, we have this like cultural idea, right. That like masculinity can equal more of these like gross things or not even gross, but even just like body hair and whatever. And like, and then femininity is like the opposite. And for both of you, like does who you’re around, especially in a romantic context, like, does that impact like how anxious you are about these various things?

Christina: Not often. I do think one of my superpowers is being incredibly concerned with my own self. And as a result of that, I’m very rarely concerned with what other people like, what like other presentations and how that might affect me. I’m like that’s fine. But that’s just like, not for me. And especially in like spaces where I am, like one of the only femmes or like one of the only black women, I’m like, whatever you weird white people with your mullets are doing is not my problem. Like I’m going to put a full face of makeup on and go to the gay party kind of no matter what. So I think in that way, I don’t really care about what other people’s perceptions of me are, which is good, which is a good-

Drew: Yeah. Let’s celebrate that.

Christina: Let’s celebrate that. Look who doesn’t need a therapist. She just has a podcast. She’s killing it.

Sam: I think I found that like with, especially when I was younger, the men that I dated when I was younger were much more of like appraising than women ever have been. Like, I don’t think I’ve ever been with a woman who was like, stand back and let me get a good look. You know, like they’re inspecting meat at the grocery store. And that is incredibly stressful. It feels like a test you have to pass, which is wild because like a lot of those guys would’ve fucked a pillowcase full of peanut butter. Right? Like-

Christina: Happily. I bet.

Sam: So feeling like I had to be something for them in hindsight is like, oh, I should have told them to fuck off into the sea, but I’ve never dated a woman who made me feel like, if after this inspection I don’t check off all the marks you’re out of here. And it’s probably why I ended up married to a woman just because that has been, the experience is, for me as someone who doesn’t pass a lot of those tests has been a much more like, it’s a much more relaxed way to be intimate with someone when it doesn’t feel like they’re cataloging all of your parts.

Christina: Oof. Yeah.

Drew: It’s interesting thinking about it, because I do think that like most of the more masculine people I’ve been with have been like somewhere on the like transmasc spectrum or queer in some way. And I’m realizing that actually it’s not masculinity and femininity of the person I’m with, but actually like their familiarity with transness. And that like, I think when I’ve had experiences with cis women who I can tell are very, like, I don’t know, new to community or at least like new to trans people. That’s when I feel like I need to be more on top of like performing these things we associate with femininity. So it is like my own pull towards femininity as opposed to like what the other person’s presentation is.

Christina: But it’s also like performing that because like in the face of whatever perceived femininity, that like whatever cis woman would have, it’s like, oh, I’ve got to-

Drew: I mean, if I was hooking up with a transmasc person, like I could have not even shaved my face that day and I would still, they would probably still, they’d have an investment in making, like, I don’t know, like whatever the dynamic was like they would understand and make me feel more in touch with my gender, I think. But then some of it is personal because like some of it is like when we hook up with people, I don’t know for me, like I want to feel sexy. So even though like I know like in my current relationship, she would be fine with me, like never wearing makeup or never like shaving my legs or whatever. And like it’s more that I feel better going into a sexual scenario, even with someone I’m super comfortable with, if I can, like, I don’t know, be like, do some of these things that make me feel, I’m like doing a little shoulders-

Christina: I see your little wiggle.

Drew: But like… And I even find that there have been times where I’ve been like, oh, we’ve been having a lot of like morning sex, afternoon sex, like still in pajama sex. And like that’s fun. And we are still in a pandemic, but like I think I want to like get dressed up and, not even dressed up like a gown or anything, but just like, feel like I’ve done the things that I do that make me feel like I’m taking care of myself in ways that are just like good for me. Yeah. And then even approaching sex with my partner than feels like more exciting or like feels better for me.

Christina: Yeah.

Sam: I love that. I got to say I never have that desire. I’m always like-

Drew: And I love that.

Sam: Oh, right, right. Rolling right out of bed and okay, great. Yeah. I don’t have zhuzh anything up. Perfect.

Christina: I will say as a person who is obsessed with putting on a full face of makeup every day of my life, often in sexual scenarios, I’m like, well, RIP to those sheets and that pillowcase, because boy, is it going to be a different color when I’m all set with a. Me entering a bedroom with someone who has a white sheet, I’m like, well, here we go. Whole face of foundation about to be places it should not be. That’s, I guess part of the journey.

Sam: You got to leave like some Tide pods on the bedside table when you leave.

Christina: I should have just like a go bag of, here are your hostess gifts. Thank you so much.

Drew: I just imagine you like breaking someone’s heart and they’re crying over you looking at like an imprint of your face on their sheets. This is where she was.

Christina: Look at it. Look at the mascara trailed about. Well, I mean, I am that I am, unfortunately, but we know that I’m bravely still not dating. So who can say when that will happen. When it does, when it does. Are you like a night shower? Drew, this is kind of random, but I just want to know, are you a night or are you a morning shower? I love to know this.

Drew: I have to morning shower.

Christina: Okay, same.

Christina: That is great.

Sam: Me too.

Christina: Ah, like-minded people.

Sam: Yeah.

Drew: I will say that I will do a night shower if I’ve done like a physical activity.

Sam: Sure.

Drew: Which for a long time, wasn’t a problem, because I wasn’t doing really physical activities and like-

Christina: Say that.

Drew: But now that it’s like summer and also that I’ve been like, so there’s like summer activities sometimes like going to the beach, whatever. And then also like, since I’ve started doing ballet, like I’m sweaty afterwards and I feel like I need to shower and it is easier to take off my makeup by just like getting in the shower. So there’s also like a laziness where if I like have the excuse of taking a second shower, I would say that my flaw as a roommate and maybe like a citizen of the world is that I take long showers, and now I take sometimes two showers a day.

Christina: I mean, same and same. I love a long shower. I really find it comforting, really find like I find myself there. I also, let’s be honest. I got a lot to do Drew. You also, we’ve got a lot of hair.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Honestly, 98% of the reason I can’t take a night shower is like what? I’m going to bed with wet hair. That’s the craziest thing I’ve ever heard in my whole life. What’s happening to my curl pattern in that scenario. Nothing good. I have to comb this out. I have to put my goo’s in it. I have to let it dry. I have to air dry it and then fluff it or whatever. Can’t be doing that at night.

Drew: Yeah. Wait, what are our shower Routines? What’s, give me an average day.

Christina: Do you have 45 minutes? An average shower for CT. She turns upon the shower. She puts on a podcast or music. She’s having a shower.

Drew: We’re doing beat by beat.

Christina: Yeah. Depending on if I’m washing my hair that day, tough to say, if I am washing my hair, then like God help whoever needs water in this house. Because now we have to do a whole process where I have to like start with the conditioner, comb it out, leave it in there while I do all of the washing, not to brag, I am not white. So I do wash my legs, TBT to that whole conversation. Shaving all of the shaving. Just again, trying to be as smooth as I possibly can. Then the conditioner gets rinsed out and then more products are applied in the shower to control the hairs. And then I do some sort of like long lotioning routine afterwards, which my roommates now refer to as lotion drying time. And they know that I simply won’t be doing anything, but sitting on my bed and waiting for all my lotions to dry. It’s a long time in there. Sam, what do you up to in there?

Sam: So this is so funny, that you mentioned you put on a podcast because I do too. And my very thoughtful spouse just got me a shower speaker.

Christina: We need one. We need one.

Sam: I’ll send you one.

Christina: Thank you.

Sam: It’s the most amazing adventure. I mean, maybe she got sick of me, like turning my phone all the way up and like destroying the whole house trying to listen to a podcast while in my 20 minute shower. So I’ll turn on the speaker, put on a podcast, get in. We just moved and we have a house with like, our shower now is just like a single stall, but it’s gotten like a really good shower head. So I don’t love the single stall. I’d prefer a tub.

Christina: Single stall is tough.

Sam: Prefer the tub with the nubbly stuff at the bottom.

Christina: Yeah.

Sam: So you feel like you’re not going to slip and fall, but-

Christina: All that conditioner my hair I’m going down.

Sam: Yes. No, that is real. So since I shave my head, I don’t have to condition, but I do have like scalp issues. So I’ll put a layer of, I’ll wet my head, put a layer of dandruff shampoo and let that sit.

Christina: Got to let it sit.

Sam: I don’t know if that works more, but I had old parents. So I noticed now that in my adult life, I just, everything I do feels like an old wives tale. You know, where it’s just like, the bottle doesn’t say I need to leave it on for 10 minutes. But I do because I feel like my mom told me I should do that. So I leave my dandruff shampoo on, do a wash. I have a gorgeous peri-menopausal beard that I wake up with every morning. Just a little patch under the chin that has to get shaved off. I mean, she’s very beautiful, but she also is gray and it’s too much. So that gets shaved off. Then I rinse my hair and I do like, I mean, I like to vary because I can’t have too much fun with like my body products because I have skin issues. But my face, I love to have like seven different face soap options in the shower. So I’ll pick one of those. Do that, get out. And then Palmer’s Cocoa Butter oil.

Christina: Classic.

Sam: I got a lube up with that. I too have to then sit on the side of the bed, staring into space. And you can tell when I’ve taken a shower, because there’s a little like greasy butt ring on the side of the bed from where I’ve sat, staring into space.

Christina: I’ve got you.

Sam: And then I get dressed and go on about my day.

Christina: God.

Sam: I cannot, even if I take a shower at night, I have to do a little something in the morning. I cannot-

Christina: Yeah.

Sam: … start the day without being like free-

Christina: My brain doesn’t turn on unless it’s-

Sam:Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Absolutely. And I will say I also have scalp issues and I did go to dermatologist and she did say that you’re supposed to let it sit for 10 minutes. So-

Sam: Oh my God. I feel-

Christina: … boom.

Sam: … like an absolute genius.

Christina: You are. Drew, talk to us about a shower.

Sam: Yes.

Drew: Okay. So I will usually put on music, not a podcast because I put it on like lower because I like have roommates and I don’t want to fill up the whole house. I should get a shower speaker, but so it’ll usually be music that I like am very familiar with. Like often Rihanna, like something that I’ve been, I’ve listened to the songs a million times. Because if I don’t know the music, then it like distracts from my thoughts being able to wander. On the most basic day, I will shave my face and then put on my face cleanser and then like soap on like a washcloth or like what are the, I don’t know what they’re called. Like the-

Christina: Loofah guy?

Drew: Yes. Yeah. And that’s like the most basic day, but I’ve started spreading my like body shaving out over like several days because when I was doing it all at once, I just would be in there for so long.

Sam: And you’d be a little prune when you got out.

Drew: So, yeah. So like I also, okay, so on a wash day, I’ll put the shampoo in my hair, leave it in while I shave and do my face cleanser, then take the shampoo out, then put the conditioner in and then let that sit while I shave a part of my body. It’s too long. That all takes so long if I do it also, I would say lately I’ve been doing like maybe like arms on that day or like stomach and chest on that day. And then like legs will be its own separate day.

Christina: That’s what they mean when they say leg day, I think. They’re talking about one day you’re shaving your legs. Yeah, for sure.

Drew: It’s also, it’s so funny thinking about like other people not noticing and me noticing like if I haven’t shaved my legs or my like, especially my like chest and stomach and arms in a week, like people probably wouldn’t notice, but I notice it so much. And so like if I could do it every day I would. And I would, I need to, I’m like thinking about getting laser when I have like the money for that. Just like to get it a little thinner.

Christina: Just so it’s gone.

Drew: But no one’s noticing that, like that’s a me thing where I’m like, well I can’t wear shorts or a skirt that day. If it’s like, it’s been whatever amount of days since I like shaved my legs and it’s like, I really, really could. And people wouldn’t notice, but yeah. Oh, and then after of course, after I get out of the shower, finish my skin care routine, then body lotion and also have a similar sitting. I usually sit on the towel, which I realize then is putting like a little bit of lotion on the towel itself, which I guess maybe that’s fine. Maybe that’s not fine.

Christina: I do the same thing.

Drew: I don’t want to get it on the bed. So I’m like, so I’ll just sort of be on the towel or have the towel down and just yeah, scroll through my phone. Yeah.

Christina: Scroll through my phone.

Sam: Yeah.

Christina: Play a phone game while vaping. You know, the usual hot girl shit that I’m up to.

Drew: Sometimes I’ll write in the shower. Like I get a lot of ideas there. So like sometimes like I’ll have my phone it’s playing the music like right on the ledge. So I’ll have to like pop out of the shower. And like with my wet fingers, like type a little bit, the thought that I had or a line-

Christina: Wow.

Sam: That’s amazing.

Drew: … that I had. And then I go back in the shower.

Christina: I’m trying to be no thoughts, head empty. I’m trying to have no thoughts of my own in the shower. I’m just listening to my podcast or if I’m listening to music, I’m singing along. No thoughts. I don’t want to think. Never, too close to meditating in that space.

Sam: I am impressed. Drew. That’s incredible.

Christina: Yeah. That’s really impressive stuff.

Drew: It’s how I break my writer’s block. Like if I have a writer’s block, usually like a shower will help me. I think it’s because they don’t have thoughts. Like I think it’s because I have tasks to do. There’s the sound of the water, sound of music, whatever. And like I’m not trying. So then I can, sometimes my mind will wander to places that I need it to wander.

Christina: Yeah. I hear that. I will say though, we are all morning showers. The best shower is the shower after a day at the beach, there’s almost nothing like it. To be so covered in sand and salted water and then be so free of all of those feelings. Ugh. Chef’s guest, best shower. Top among showers. Also the post travel shower, just like I’m home.

Sam: Oh the post travel shower.

Christina: Need to get this train station, bus, airport. I need to get it off of me, off of me.

Sam: Yeah.

Christina: I can’t speak to my bed until I’m clean.

Sam: Yeah.

Christina: Really good stuff. Really good stuff. I love taking showers. Honestly. It’s one of my favorite things to do. I’m excited for tomorrow morning, all over again.

Sam: It’s so funny that we all talked about like being stinky, yet we-

Christina: Compulsive showering every morning.

Sam: … are showering all the time.

Christina: Yeah. I guess science would maybe say that we’re probably not that smelly.

Christina: And yeah, not to brag. I’m not working up a sweat in my day to day life. Let me tell you what.

Sam: Same.

Christina: I am simply sitting down and that is it, in various places in my home.

Sam: Yes.

Christina: So, well I think we’ve nailed hygiene.

Drew: Yeah, this was great.

Christina: I think we crushed it.

Sam: I feel really good about myself.

Christina: Yay!

Drew: Good. That’s the goal.

Christina: We all should, everyone should feel good about themselves.

Sam: Yeah.

Christina: And you know, if you haven’t taken a shower in a while, try one out. They whip. Get in there. It’s crush corner time. So Drew, who are you crushing on? I’ll think of one soon, I bet.

Drew: Okay. So I actually haven’t I tweeted about this, but I haven’t started watching it, but Ethan Hawke made a documentary series about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward. And I want to watch it, but I also was like, oh wow. I haven’t seen a lot of the movies they did together. If I watch this documentary about them, I’m going to spend the whole time being like, oh, I got to watch that. Which is a fun way to watch a documentary sometimes about movies. But I was like, what if I got a jumpstart on it? Also, I want to watch it with Elise, even though I’m trying to think. Maybe like a documentary about old movies might like get some enthusiasm for old movies. Maybe not, probably not. We’ll probably get through one episode together and I’ll watch the rest myself. Anyways, my crushes of the week are Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward. I just watched Long Hot Summer, which is maybe not like a great movie, but they’re great in it. And they’re very hot together. And Paul Newman is just, I mean-

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Like.

Sam: [laughs]

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. God was really in her bag on that day. Let me tell you what. She put her pussy into that man.

Drew: Truly. And I just, I’m like, I don’t know, like I know that the Ethan Hawk documentaries is called The Last Movie Stars, and I’m like, he might be like, he’s the, like when I think of like a movie star, like Paul Newman, Paul Newman. Anyways.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: They’re my crushes of the week.

Christina: Also good recommendation to watch that, I have not done so yet.

Drew: I mean, I haven’t watched it either. So I’m recommending a documentary series for the experience of catching up on these two actors work. And maybe this, I hear this series is really good also though. So.

Christina: I mean, you wouldn’t be you if you wasn’t like “It’s this thing — and also it’s a lot of backlog watching.”

Drew: Yeah, for sure.

Christina: Sam, do you have a crush of the week? What are you consuming?

Sam: Well, I am consuming a lot of garbage, but most recently I’ve been watching a lot of clips from inside the NBA. It’s, basketball season is over, but I miss basketball season. And my current crush is Charles Barkley who is truly like one of the funniest people in America. And there’s this video that has been going around recently of him drunk in a nightclub and he gets on the mic and he says something, I’m going to botch the quote. But the gist of it is he’s like, if you are gay or transgender, I love you. And if anybody has a problem with it, you tell them that Charles Barkley says, fuck you. And the crowd goes nuts.

Charles Barkley (recorded audio): I want to say this. If you’re gay and transgender, I love you. Hey, and if anybody give you shit. You tell them Charles said, “Fuck you.”

Sam: He’s so honest. He’s so effortlessly funny. He is like the perfect post basketball star, post basketball career basketball star. I love him so much. I mean, I already did before that video, but then I was like, it’s like if your dad makes you proud, you’re like, oh dad, you’re the best. I had that feeling. But also like kind of sexually too. I don’t really want to fuck my dad though. But I had that kind of feeling about Charles Barkley. I just love him. He’s the best.

Christina: I just love you for picking a basketball player that I was like, I know that one.

Sam: I know you would.

Christina: Been there.

Sam: There was some obscure ones. And I was like, she, no, she is not going to-

Christina: I would’ve supported you no matter what you said, but I would’ve nodded like a dumb bitch who really didn’t know what you’re talking about. I would’ve said, yeah. Thrilling.

Sam: Oh, him. Great.

Christina: Especially if they’re not basketball players from like the like late eighties, early nineties, when I was like, just listening to my dad, watch a lot of basketball then like I kinda got nothing, like I don’t know, what’s Patrick Ewing up to, I don’t know, but he’s a basketball player.

Sam: He’s coaching now.

Christina: That makes sense.

Sam: Why do I know that?

Christina: See, that makes sense. I have remembered to my crushes because I knew I did have one and I did this past weekend go to see Into the Woods parentheses, again. Patina Miller, girl. Could you choke me to death at any point in this like life? That would be great. You are hot and incredible and a gorgeous witch. I don’t know why I’m talking directly to her as if she listens to this podcast.

Drew: No, good. Yes. Yes.

Christina: She does not.

Sam: Of course she does. We’re manifesting it.

Christina: We’re manifesting. Yeah. She was an incredible witch and I of course, because of who I am as a person, I was like, dude, does this mean I have to watch Madam Secretary again? Maybe it does. Maybe I do need more Patina Miller in my daily life, but I just was really thrilled to see her on stage and again, arms. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Whoa. Wow. What an actress. What a show. What a time.

Drew: What arms.

Christina: What arms. What arms. Yeah. And that’s going to be the end of me. So-

Drew: Well, Samantha, do you want to tell people where they can find you in your work?

Sam: Yeah. I’m like, I have to think of it. I have books that you can buy wherever you like to buy books. And I have a newsletter where I recap the show Judge Mathis, and you can find it at bitchesgottaeat@substack.com. It’s a lot of fun. Even if you have never seen even a minute of daytime court TV, I try to make it fun.

Christina: It’s very fun. And even though I have seen quite a lot of daytime court TV, because that was the best part about being homesick from school, when I was like in middle school. Yes I can confidently say if you haven’t even seen one, you’re going to have a great time. And yeah, buy all Sam’s books, they’re hilarious and they make me cry laugh. And my housemates say, what’s wrong with you? And I say, I’m laughing from joy and my friend being funny. Shut up.

Sam: That’s the highest praise I’ve ever received.

Christina: Wow. People should be nicer to you. You should have better praise! Come on now!

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Wait, Is This a Date? And you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar and this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter @C_ GraceT, and on Instagram at Christina_GraceT. And you can find Autostraddle of course at Autostraddle.

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment, horridly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this, on the case here. We don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us, the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): I’ve been accused of flirting by like talking about all the things that I do in the shower, I guess, because saying that I write in the shower makes people think of like me being naked. It’s really just that I get a lot of ideas in the shower. I’m not trying to flirt, not usually.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 206: Celebrity Crushes

It was my sister’s turn to pick the movie at Blockbuster and she’d chosen A Walk to Remember. “Sorry. This is a girl movie,” my mom warned. When we got home and watched it as a family, I didn’t show my tears. Or my desire. I didn’t admit that I loved the movie and, more importantly, loved the lead. The year was 2002 and between Mandy Moore in this movie and Avril Lavigne releasing her debut album, I’d discovered the two types of celebrity crushes that would haunt the rest of my childhood.

Celebrity crushes mean more to queer people than they do to straight people. They can be our first expressions of queer desire or our first expressions of gender envy. They can be a safe place to try out urges that aren’t ready for the real world.

That’s why this week we’re talking with writer and podcaster Jordan Crucchiola all about celebrity crushes. We talk about how celebrity thirsting feels inclusive to Jordan as a panromantic gray asexual person. We talk about how I think most of my celebrity crushes are kind of attainable. And, of course, we talk about the famous older women on Christina’s water bottle.

But first! Christina quizzes me on a topic I know little about — lesbian romance novels

SHOW NOTES

+ The real romance novels referenced in our game were: The X Ingredient, Breaking Character, Hotel Queens, Payback’s a Witch, and The Brutal Truth.

+ My reference for two lovers sharing a wall:

+ Christina’s reference for two lovers sharing a wall:

+ Here are all of Jordan Crucchiola’s podcasts:

A Simple Podcast
The Whole Movie Podcast
Aughtsterion
Disaster Girls
Feeling Seen

+ My famous Euphoria recaps.

+ If like me, you have no idea who Lindsay Shookus is, here’s a timeline of her relationship with Mr. Jennifer Lopez.

+ This is very brave of me, because I don’t remember everything I wrote on my Tumblr, but here’s a link to my Nicole Kidman project.

+ The Angelina Jolie Rolling Stone cover.

+ A reminder to watch P-Valley and to read Natalie’s coverage.

EPISODE

Jordan: Literally every time Jennifer Connelly’s face popped up on screen, every single time I just went, “Oh, God.”

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: Like, audibly. I, like, gasped and “Oh, God,” like every fucking time.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?.

Christina: You know, Wait, Is This A Date? is an Autostraddle podcast wherein I constantly forget who says what, no matter how long we’ve recorded. Uh, I think that’s actually really beautiful. And my headphones just fell right off my head. So.

Drew: So a strong s—, strong start.

Christina: A strong start. But mostly, it’s a podcast about dating and, like, figuring out what dating is and if we know how to do it, much like I figure out if I know how to keep my own headphones on my damn head.

Drew: That’s great. Um, my name is Drew Gregory. I’m (laughs) I’m, uh… Or do you… But did you want me to dwell on that longer? I’m getting looks.

Christina: No, I’m just dwelling…

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: …on myself.

Drew: Great.

Christina: It’s best if you talk, I think. (laughs)

Drew: Right. Um, uh, my name is Drew Gregory. I am a filmmaker and a writer for Autostraddle. I’m a queer trans woman as well. Those are identity labels that I have. Christina?

Christina: Yes, absolutely. I’m Christina Tucker. I am also a writer at Autostraddle and a podcaster. And honestly, this month I’ve really just been like a girl about town. I’ve really just been like—

Drew: Mm.

Christina: —woman at large, mostly in various—

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: —beaches, uh, in the Jersey Shore.

Drew: You really have.

Christina: But still feeling very at large and whimsical in a way that now I obviously feel exhausted by.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: I’m Black and gay, and that rocks for me.

Drew: I love that. (laughs)

Christina: Cool. I don’t know why I’m so weird today. I, like, don’t know who I am. What’s going on?

Drew: It’s okay. We’re gonna keep goin’.

Christina: What I do have, though, Drew, is a game.

Drew: Mm-hmm. Thank God.

Christina: And this game I am testing your knowledge of something I know that you don’t have a lot of knowledge about, which is—

Drew: Oh God.

Christina: –fun. Um, it’s a… it’s called… I don’t actually have a name for it. I maybe should’ve thought of a name. But basically, I’m going to give you three lesbian romance titles, and you are going—

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: —to have to tell me what are the real ones of the three.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Two I have created, one is real. And you’re gonna have to pick the real one and tell me what you think it’s about.

Drew: Great. Okay.

Christina: Are you ready?

Drew: I am. What a great game.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: Here we go. The first three. The X Ingredient, The It Factor, and The Truth of Us.

Drew: Huh. It’s funny, ’cause you would think that The X Ingredient would actually be The X Factor along with The It Factor, but—

Christina: Sure.

Drew: I wanna say… I just… Oh, I hope I’m not accidentally insulting you, but I feel like The X Ingredient is the clunkiest, and so you wouldn’t have come up with that. It must be real.

Christina: You are correct. (laughs)

Drew: Yes.

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: Wow, I’m so glad.

Christina: What do you think The X Ingredient is about?

Drew: Um, I think it is about two lesbians who are exes and end up on the same reality cooking show that’s sort of like Chopped, but, like, somewhere between Chopped and Great British Baking Show. Like, it goes on for a while but it has sort of the elements of Chopped. Um, and they’re exes and it… It’s sort of like a… I don’t know if it would count as an enemies to lovers because they were lovers at one point, but it’s like an exes to back together.

Christina: I love that. I also love that by asking you to tell me what you think these books are about, I’ve just made you create romance plots.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: That’s really fun. Uh, unfortunately The X Ingredient is actually, uh, about an assistant who sleeps with her boss. And when I started reading it last week on the beach, I said, “This is absolutely a Devil Wears Prada fanfic that has turned into a real book.” And when I tell you I read the Devil Wears Prada fanfic, I sure have. So that’s a journey.

Drew: Wait, but why is it called The X Ingredient?

Christina: Well, in the original fanfic, the X ingredient was… There was some sort of reason that Miranda had all of her assistants, uh, eat her out to orgasm. Um.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Can’t really remember what the, the story, the backstory ,was on that, um, but in the new one, in this actual published version I should say, uh, the X ingredient I guess is, I don’t know, just, like, that her assistant’s hot and she’s like, “Oh, I am gay now and I wanna have sex with her.” Like, I don’t know. The X ingredient is being hot.

Drew: Good enough for me. Okay.

Christina: There you go.

Drew: Round two.

Christina: Round two. Broken Hearts Club…

Drew: Uh-huh.

Christina: …Breaking Character, Going for Broke.

Drew: Ooh, all those sound like they could be real. I really want it to be Breaking Character, but I think Broken Hearts Club is real.

Christina: Unfortunately, Broken Hearts Club is not real. And lucky for you, Breaking Character is real.

Drew: Oh my God, I should’ve just gone with my instinct.

Christina: Go with your gut, babe.

Drew: Breaking Character. Okay, it is about a sort of like the female Daniel Day-Lewis, like a female actor who takes her method acting very seriously, and she develops a relationship with her co-star. But her co-star, it’s unclear for both her co-star and for the actor if the co-star is in love with her or in love with her character. And hijinks ensue.

Christina: Honestly, that is not far off from the actual plot of Breaking Character, which is in fact about two actresses, one who is, uh, been called a bitch but is not really, but is just being, uh, badmouthed by her showrunner because she’s on like a Grey’s Anatomy type medical show—

Drew: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Christina: —that has really gone off the rails. Her character’s the bitch.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And, uh, her new co-star Summer — that’s right, her name is Summer — is very charming and delightful. And due to very bonkers plot reasons, they have to have a fake relationship. But they’re both gay so…

Drew: So nothing happens. They don’t develop any feelings.

Christina: Yeah, so they don’t… Yeah, nothing.

Drew: They never hook up. No.

Christina: Nothing happens. They never talk about it and they never have sex.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yep, that’s exactly what happens.

Drew: Sometimes that’s how it goes.

Christina: All right, your next three. Hotel Queens, Media Moguls, or Restaurant Monarchs.

Drew: Okay, I’m gonna follow my instinct and go with the one that I want to be real—

Christina: Okay.

Drew: —and hope that that’s real. Hotel Queens.

Christina: Hotel Queens is real.

Drew: Wow, I’m killing it. (laughs)

Christina: You’re killing this. For a person who does not read a ton of lesbian romance, uh, it’s in your blood, babe.

Drew: Okay, I’m going to now say the plot that I hope it is, though I’m pretty sure based on my understanding of publishing industry this isn’t the case. But I want it to be about two contestants on a show similar to, like, Drag Race ’cause you’re not really supposed to, like, be in each other’s rooms but, you know, they stay in a hotel throughout the entire filming of the show. So they develop, like, a sort of dramatic affair that for a long time can’t be consummated, but their rooms are next to each other so they, like, knock on the wall in between them and then when they are filming, there’s just like all the tension and it’s… And yeah, that’s, that’s what I want Hotel Queens to be about.

Christina: That sounds quite hot. Um, that is not what Hotel Queens is about. It’s just about a woman who runs hotels and, uh, another woman who runs a competing hotel.

Drew: Sure, sure.

Christina: Who works for a competing hotel chain and they, uh—

Drew: Sure, sure, sure.

Christina: —quite literally are hotel queens.

Drew: Sure, sure.

Christina: But I love that energy. I love the knocking on the… Very, uh, knock three times on the ceiling if you want me energy, which I like.

Drew: I was referencing Bright Star, and I love our, I love our different cultural points, you know.

Christina: I love our brains.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I think brains are so beautiful.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: All right, Paid in Paradise.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: The Repayment Plan.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: Payback’s a Witch.

Drew: Oh, Payback’s a Witch sounds fun. I’m going with Payback’s a Witch.

Christina: Payback’s a Witch. And it is fun ’cause it is a real book.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: Tell me what you think Payback’s a Witch is about.

Drew: Okay, I got it.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: So a young gay witch is struggling to make rent in the early months of the pandemic.

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: And the landlord is like, “No, you have to still give money.” And she’s like, “But look, like, all these… You know, like, you can’t evict me,” and all these different things and like, “You should give me a break,” and “It’s a pandemic.” And the landlord’s like, “No, I’m a landlord. I hate you.”

And so then she’s like… She goes, “No, I’m a witch,” and so then she starts tormenting the landlord. Love story is not with the landlord, not an enemies-to-lovers situation because—

Christina: ‘Cause landlords are bad. Sure. (laughs)

Drew: But actually she finds out that her neighbor is also a witch and also a lesbian, so they torment the landlord together and fall in love along the way. It sort of has like a Roald Dahl energy, like The Twits. Or Fantastic Mr. Fox. Like, there’s not really, like… There’s not a lot of conflict once the initial conflict happens. Like, the two of them just are like, “We’re both witches. We’re gonna torment this person who deserves to be tormented.” And then they have sex.

Christina: That’s actually really gorgeous. Uh, Payback’s a Witch is about, instead, a woman who is, you guessed it, a witch who returns to her hometown where it’s the only place that she can do magic—

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: —because there’s like a magic lake. She has been without powers.

Drew: Fun. Ooh.

Christina: Um, and she meets a, a girl she had a crush on in high school. Uh, there’s like a whole very long, like, mystery world-building thing with the town and the families that run the town. They get together. It’s very sweet. Fun book, Payback’s a Witch.

Drew: Honestly, of the ones so far, that’s the one I would most wanna read.

Christina: Payback’s a Witch is very fun. Uh, there is a sequel to that book, but it is unfortunately about straight people. So.

Drew: Weird.

Christina: You win some, you lose some. All right, here’s our final one. Honesty and Second Chances, When Truth Meets Fiction—

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: —or The Brutal Truth.

Drew: Ooh. I’m gonna go with When Truth Meets Fiction.

Christina: Mm, that is unfortunately from my brain alone. Uh, The Brutal Truth, however…

Drew: The good news is that The Brutal Truth and When Truth Meets Fiction, I think they are both about the same thing and that is—

Christina: Yeah, they would be.

Drew: —novel-length fanfiction of The Morning Show and of Bradley Jackson and her truth telling. But I imagine when it was published, for copyright reasons they did have to change some specifics. So her name is not Bradley Jackson anymore, but it is similarly plotted.

Christina: Which is a shame because Bradley Jackson is top among the greatest character names ever put to paper, um, despite how—

Drew: Absolutely.

Christina: —ridiculous everything about it is. But congratulations on that Emmy nom, Reese.

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: (laughs) The Brutal Truth is about a media mogul who takes over a struggling paper and falls in love with the crime writer, who writes—

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: —at the nighttime. Uh, they have a very sweet coming together. The media mogul is obviously very mean and like 20 years older than she is. It’s really incredible stuff.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: And I will, because I care so much for our listeners, obviously include links to all of these actual books in the show notes.

Drew: Incredible.

Christina: And the rest of them, they will go back into my brain where they belong. Also, coming up with titles of books… Like I can come up with plots for a romance novels all day long. Titles is, like, actually shockingly challenging.

Drew: Yeah, you did really good.

Christina: Thank you. I just needed that compliment.

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: Our very special guest is one of my favorite people to thirst about celebrities with. So special guest, why don’t you introduce yourself so we can get into celebrity crush talk?

Jordan: Uh, hello. Hi, Christina. It is a— And Drew. Hello. I, I am Jordan Crucchiola. And if you listen to any of my podcasts, you may have started with the Simple Podcast which I did with Christina. And as I said when I logged on to this chat, the last time we were on a pod together was when we were interviewing Blake Lively.

Christina: And, as I recall, texting feverishly, uh, off-mic—

Jordan: Yeah.

Christina: —about wow, Blake Lively’s just in a little Zoom corner.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: There she is. She’s got so much hair. What’s happening? She’s talkin’ to us for so long.

Jordan: Go with God, Blake. Thank you.

Christina: It was wild times. Wild times.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: Do you want to say a little bit more about who you are?

Jordan: Sure, sure. Um, I, I would like to say that I am a person who loves Drew Gregory’s what I consider to be definitive Euphoria recaps.

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: Wow. Thank you.

Jordan: There was particular one where, um… Because the show makes me so extremely… Hunter Schafer is, uh, an angel from God.

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: And the show makes me extremely uncomfortable in how the single brain trust creator, executor, producer, director, writer, gazes upon Hunter.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Drew: Yeah.

Jordan: And I found that your assessments of… your putting words to what that show does… I was like, “Thank fucking God someone has sized this up so accurately, because I’m just sitting here angry (laughs) and not able to enumerate all the ways in which I am.” But you did that.

Drew: Thank you so much.

Jordan: And I really appreciate that.

Drew: That is how I started. I started off just angry and then ultimately I’m like, “Well, I have to turn something in, so I better get some thoughts collected.”

Jordan: (laughs) Very much appreciate, your additions to the fraught discourse around Euphoria.

Drew: Thank you.

Jordan: But yeah, I’m a writer. I’m a producer, I make a lot of podcasts.

Christina: You do.

Jordan: Most of them independently just for fun. Uh, started with the Simple Favor podcast, which became kinda The Whole Movie Podcast to anthologize each season. We’ve covered The Neon Demon. The most recent one is all about robot cinema and how oftentimes gay that is.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: With my wonderful co-host, Margot Carlson. There’s always the Aughtsterion, which is a podcast about the intersection of politics and pop culture and horror cinema around the millennium era, and then there’s the Disaster Girls podcast, where I talk about disaster movies, and that one comes out every week. And then there is Feeling Seen, which is on an actual network, Maximum Fun. So I am doing a lot of talking.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: That’s so many podcasts, Jordan.

Jordan: Yeah, yeah. It’s a lot of fun. There are some, some weeks where it happens to be that everything is coming out all at once. It’s like wow. Hey, everybody. This week, you could have six hours of me talking.

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: Honestly.

Jordan: And this is just one week.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, I get it. I have to say I get it. Like, I understand the urge to be like, “Yeah, I can hop on a mic and talk again. Why the hell not? What else am I up to?”

Jordan: I mean, the best thing that I did in lockdowns was the Simple Favor podcast.

Christina: Mm. We had such a good time.

Jordan: That was the best thing.

Christina: And let’s be honest. We brought back A Simple Favor. We’re getting a sequel now.

Jordan: I will say on this podcast we literally did.

Christina: Yeah. It was pretty cool of us.

Jordan: Because it has been enumerated by both Paul Feig and screenwriter Jessica Sharzer that because of the podcast, they got back to work and started writing A Simple Favor 2 which they then started pitching, which was then bought. So we literally did make a green light for Simple Favor 2 possible.

Drew: That’s powerful.

Jordan: Yeah. (laughs)

Christina: We have power. There’s power in podcasting, and I’m always saying that.

Jordan: Yeah. (laughs)

Drew: So, Jordan, are you someone who, uh, has a lot of celebrity crushes? Enjoys the celebrity crush?

Jordan: I do. I, uh, love having obsessions and infatuations.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: It’s a key tenet of my personality. I was just actually having this conversation this morning with— I was relaying to a friend the good news of, like, I had heard a story about her where somebody had bestowed a compliment. They were like, “Oh, yeah. My friend met this person.” And they were like, “Your friend is so hot that I felt too nervous to talk to them.” So I was like, “Oh, I of course have to tell hot friend about this development.”

Drew: Sure.

Jordan: It’s very exciting. And so we have this fun back and forth and I was like, “Having really great friends who happen to be hot is like having the best dinner ever. You loved it. It was a perfect evening. No notes. You are happy as can be. And then somebody comes out at the end and tells you it’s fucking free.” And you’re like, “I, I didn’t come here for this. I didn’t expect it. This isn’t necessary. I thought it’s already as good as it gets. And now you’re telling me it’s free? Oh, I accept.” Like, it’s like oh, there’s already a cherry on your sundae? Put a second cherry on that sundae. Like, it’s just nice.

Drew: Yeah.

Jordan: So I feel like the celebrity crush, the celebrity object of thirst, it’s like I love your work. I like the things you do. You provide that joy into my life. And you’re so hot? (laughs) Amazing. What an additional… What a bonus you’ve given me. And I will say, too, as a panromantic gray asexual person, I find that there is something especially joyful about the nature of, like, online celebrity thirsting.

Christina: Hmm.

Jordan: Like as The Cut said, catastrophic levels of thirst.

Christina: Right.

Drew: Uh-huh.

Christina: Your run me over with a trucks.

Jordan: Yes.

Christina: Or hit me with a lawn mower in the face, et cetera.

Jordan: Exactly.

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: That like brand of very internet, desperate, overwhelming sort of expression of attraction is something that I really feel, uh, seen by because sexual attraction for me is an abstract concept. Like, it’s not a thing I’m acting upon. It’s not a thing I particularly have any interest in and never really had. Thirsting in abstract for, like, a person who I will never realize a sexual encounter with, it is like no, this is a level of the sex conversation that I actually feel like I can be a full participant in, in a way that people, you know, sharing stories about actual individuals they’ve had sex with or want to that they could is like, “Oh, I simply have nothing to offer.”

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: Mm.

Jordan: But joining the internet in being like, “Drive me into debt, Rachel Weisz,” like that’s something I can say that is as real to me as it is the people in my mentions.

Drew: Totally.

Jordan: So I find it to be very inclusive.

Christina: I love that.

Jordan: I find the act of celebration in celebrity thirsting to be like a very inclusive space for a panromantic gray asexual person like myself.

Christina: Drew, I want you to talk about celebrity crushes because I think the internet, anyone who follows me on it, uh, pretty aware that I’m quite fluent, and I will happily talk about it later. But I do wanna get Drew’s take on a celebrity crush.

Drew: Mm.

Christina: Because I do feel you go what I call Drew level on a celebrity crush. There’s like another… I feel like there’s another extra, like, brain take that you get to in your little mind, and I want you to talk about it.

Drew: Yeah.

Jordan: Drew starts ascending. Drew starts going cosmic with it.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Well, I feel like I’m different from both of you in the sense that to me, celebrity crushes… I don’t wanna say feel tangible because that’s thinking a little bit too highly of myself. I mean, look—

Jordan: You’re like, “I honestly feel like anybody I thirst after is accessible.”

Drew: I think by the nature of being someone who’s gender non-conforming in these ways that some people find so alluring and some people could not look at me twice.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Drew: Like, I sort of am like, “I don’t know what people are into.” And I also want… I mean, I work in this industry. I want to be more established in this industry. And when you’re famous, then you can just date other famous people. I mean, when you’re not famous, you can date other… you can date people who are famous… I mean, you can, you know. There’s no rule but, like, generally speaking—

Jordan: You can Lindsay Shookus your way into a Ben Affleck situation.

Drew: Who is that?

Christina: Wow. Yeah.

Drew: Wait, who’s Lindsay Shookus?

Christina: She was Ben Affleck’s nanny?

Jordan: Something… Or she was… Or I think she was like a comedian or like a comedy writer or something.

Drew:Uh-huh. sure

Jordan:And ended up… It was like a… Was that a pre-lockdown situation?

Christina:Oh, yeah. That was like—

Jordan: ‘Cause lockdown was Ana de Armas.

Christina: Yeah, that was like 2018.

Drew: Right.

Christina: ’17. Like, that was that was many Ben Afflecks ago.

Drew: Wow.

Jordan: Yeah. That was, that might’ve been the first, like, “Is Ben Affleck with somebody?” when the Jennifer Garner split became official.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Yeah. She was a normal.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, it’s funny ’cause I really enjoy celebrity gossip and I don’t, like, insert myself into it. It’s just there’s, there’s a little part of my brain that’s like, “I don’t know what Angelina Jolie’s into.” Like—

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: Right.

Drew: I don’t know what my future holds. I don’t know what her future holds. Like… And I say her because she feels so unattainable… Like, she’s in that tier—

Jordan: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: —where I’m like, “I’m not running into Angelina Jolie.” Like yes, she’s bisexual, but I’m not running into her at, like, queer Hollywood parties.

Jordan: Right.

Drew: It’s different.

Jordan: Yeah, like are famous people even running into Angelina Jolie?

Drew: No, no. Exactly, exactly.

Jordan: Like, kind of seems no.

Drew: Right. But even that level, I’m like, “Look, I don’t know.” Like, I think I’m always… It’s funny ’cause I both am like, “Yeah, maybe Angelina Jolie will someday wanna have sex with me,” and I’m also like, “I don’t believe that anyone is into me until proven otherwise.”

Jordan: Okay.

Drew: In the sense that it’s sorta to me just as likely that, like, some gay famous, or even maybe a step above, person would be into me as it is that some random person who, you know, who I meet at a party or whatever. You know what I mean? And so I think because of that, I’m like… I’m always a little bit thinking about it in a daydreamy sort of way and in a way that is like a little bit tangible?

Jordan: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Drew: Like a little bit like, “Hmm,” especially when you go, like, tiers that are… And because of that, I think I thirst less online… Like, I used to thirst a lot more.

Jordan: Mm.

Drew: And now, I do sorta reserve it for—

Christina: You’ve silenced yourself?

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: I reserve it for… I mean, I feel like the last time I really thirsted over someone who wasn’t, like, super, super famous was the star of Veneno, and that’s because, like, we don’t speak the same language so I was like, “We’re not—”

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: “—probably gonna meet. Like, like, we’re not… I think it’s probably safe that I’m not gonna meet that person att a party.” But if I’m publicly thirsting about someone who I might run into, I’m doing it with intention. Like, I’m doing it with a little bit of like, “Maybe I’ll… Like, I’m fine with them seeing this.”

Jordan: Yeah. (laughs)

Christina: You’re doing, you’re doing The Secret. You’re doing like a little bit of the secret.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Just like a little bit. Interesting. I do… I mean, I do know that about you, that you’re always like, “But let’s never say never about anything.”

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: Uh, especially when it comes to, like, “Maybe I will run into a famo and we will fall in love.” Um, and I do… I love that energy for you. I think it’s very—

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: —fun and bonkers to me because I think part of the fun for me is I’m just like, “Well, I don’t know, that’s, like, not an actual person to me.”

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: Like—

Drew: Right.

Christina: That is certainly a person in the world whose, yes as Jordan said, whose work I can absolutely admire and respect, but I’m like, “As for their day-to-day life, oh that simply doesn’t concern me.” Like, that’s not the point.

Jordan: Yeah. (laughs)

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Whatever.

Jordan: That is why I like the, the sort of internet hyperbole—

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: —form of, like, crushing and thirsting because it creates such a distance between the tangible expression of, like, what you would do to someone or what you want to be done to you.

Drew: Uh-huh.

Jordan: That it, to me, creates a sort of safety mechanism in there where, like, if somebody… If I was talking about how somebody is completely overwhelming me and I feel like I’m just gonna, like, run into traffic or something on that order and they responded, they were like, “Yeah, and she has hot boobs,” I’d be like, “Blocked.”

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: (laughs)

Jordan: “Get the fuck out of here, you pervert.”

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: Like, we’re being respectfully out of our minds here. Don’t give me specifics of things that could actually happen. Like, you’re gross. Like, you need to think about this person’s feeling and treat them with respect. So there is… The outsized nature that it can take on is, to me, what allows for it to be a fun thing that we participate in.

I loved this example recently of watching, um, Twitter thirst take hold. ‘Cause I follow a lot of dudes in the action cinema zone.

Christina: Brave.

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: Many nice guys, like lovely people. We talk about, you know, fight movies that we love all the time. And I was noticing when the show Reacher came out, the, the Amazon show Reacher with big, huge Alan Ritchson who is a extremely hot, large, chiseled, like, very Midwest American dreamboat.

Christina: Sure.

Jordan: And as the show was coming out week to week, watching these ostensibly heterosexual men just sort of, like, lose the ability to veil their lust for him was an incredible experience. Just like oh my God, all of you are, are so taken by this man who is just A) So beautiful but, like, he’s very masculine, and this show is very masculine. But he’s also a sensitive figure and there’s vulnerability there, but it’s masked.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: And I remember posting something about, like, you know, “I’m so proud of every man on here who is just so obsessed with Alan Ritchson in Reacher that they cannot help but just thirst after him with this homoerotically-charged praise of the work that he’s doing in a show.” And a friend responded to me, this guy who’s a director, and he was like, “No, no, no. Jordan, like, it’s not that we wanna have sex with him. We want to be him to have sex with other women.” It’s like so you’re fantasizing about being inside another man’s body and watching yourself carry out sex acts.

Christina: Still sounds pretty gay. (laughs)

Jordan: Yes, that sounds extremely heterosexual. You’re right.

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: (laughs)

Jordan: Nevermind.

Christina: Yeah, I take it back.

Jordan: And to watch in the safety of this Twitter bubble these dudes all on the same page as each other, this, like, manifesting its way out, it was very, like, “This is beautiful.”

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: Yeah.

Jordan: This is what art lets us do.

Drew: I mean, Christina, I feel like you talk about that sometimes, like when I’ll, you know, ask you about your celebrity crushes where you’re like, “I do think it’s more that I wanna be them,” like these sort of, like ice queen, domineering women, that it’s more I wanna be or relate to, even.

Christina: Yeah, I think it is a lot more… I think I have at least the inner knowledge, or maybe a little bit of the self-awareness, like being that person is probably not gonna be super fun.

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: But I also have the self-awareness to be like, “But I do see a bit of myself in, I don’t know, the ex-mean character doing some… you know, refusing to be emotionally vulnerable for X, Y, Z reasons.” I’m like, “Yeah, that, that does seem like a real CT moment.”

Jordan: Yeah. (laughs)

Drew: Beyond, like, the building of your brand do you lust after famous people who are more in line with the people who you have, like, romantic and sexual feelings for? And also for Jordan, like, for romantic feelings, is there crossover between the people in real life who you’re drawn to and the celebrities? Or is it like… Are they totally different types of people?

Christina: Mm, mm. Hmm. I think for me, they are pretty different, and I think that’s also just because I, unlike Drew, do not believe that there is even a corner of a world wherein I will run into any of… Say any of the women on my water bottle, I do not think will ever be in my, in my space in real life. So I’m just like, “I do not want to meet my heroes.”

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: I do not think that’s a good thing to do. There’s only so many famous white women that I wanna meet, and they’re not, uh… They’re a tough brand generally. Um, yeah, I think it is… For me, it is very separate.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Like it’s not to say that I am not attracted or more attracted. It just… it does tend to separate pretty evenly out.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: And I think for me, it’s, it’s all quite equal opportunity. I think they might as well be concentric circles. It’s just, it’s coming with sort of the territory. Famous people tend to be… There’s like an average attractiveness that’s, like, just much higher by virtue of the vicious rules of participating in the machine.

Drew: Sure.

Jordan: So it’s like wow, all of you. But, like, in life? Could be anybody.

But I did fasten on to what you were saying about, like… when you were like, “There is a quadrant of people out there who are either inherently interested in, in me,” you as, as Drew, “because like I am a category that they are enamored of or conversely, a separate category who, like, wants nothing to do with me on principle.”

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: And mentioning Hunter Schafer, like I find myself, like… If an object of thirst is somebody who is demographically different from myself, if it’s a Black woman, if it’s a trans woman… It’s usually women. Sometimes it’s men. It’s usually women. But, like, I feel self-conscious about that kind of public thirsting because I am extremely hesitant to come off as fetishizing somebody.

Christina: Hmm.

Drew: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jordan: Or like, “What, are you just, like, performing this thing because like, ‘Yeah, all inclusive. Come one, come all,’ or like, ‘Okay, we get it. You think they’re pretty’?”

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: And so that is, as far as like a self-consciousness goes in like the tangibleness of it, it starts to feel very tangible to me in a sort of like boundaries up kinda way when I feel like I might be coming off as turning somebody into… like, exoticizing them because they fall outside of my accessible range while at the same time being like, “Am I just gonna be posting about fucking Elizabeth Debicki and white women all the time? Because that’s also weird.”

Christina: Well first of all, let’s not step on my brand. Like, come on.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: (laughs) I mean, that also, though… It brings up something interesting because there’s the idea of people who have… like, famous people who have, like, different identities than us, but also there’s this something related to that in the way that queer people online will thirst very openly over straight people.

Jordan: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Drew: And will feel this sort of extreme freedom to speak about, you know, the sort of bicurious-seeming, straight-identified famous actors more so than actually queer actors.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Drew: I mean, I think some of that goes back to, like, the lack of… Yeah, like, tangibility or being—

Jordan: Yeah. I feel like the sort of proximity between you and that person.

Drew: It’s a fantasy.

Christina: Right.

Jordan: It gets bigger or it shrinks depending on that.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: Well, I think, I think obviously her public image is something… It’s kinda odd to track, um, but I think Brie Larson is a fascinating sort of example of how, like, this fixing on to from, like, queer women onto her and imbuing her with sort of like this implicit queerness that almost becomes a presumed queerness.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Mm.

Jordan: Where it’s like you’re fucking hiding something from us.

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: Yeah, it’s weird.

Jordan: Yeah. There is like… there is a sort of resentment around what she isn’t that only exists because so much headcanoning has been done about what a lot of people wish she was.

Drew: Right.

Jordan: And again, she’s into the metaverse and, like, she’s… I mean, she’s an interesting public figure to track via social media, but I have no comment on that. An a recent Gawker piece that was about her was absolutely fuckin’ horrible and gross and an example of the bad old days of Gawker and aughts-era blog celebrity journalism that need not ever return again.

Drew: Oh, no.

Jordan: But, like, I feel like she’s a good example of that kind of arc that can happen where it all starts as fun and games and then you keep saying it so many times that it starts to become its own form of reality. And then suddenly, a person or persona is accountable to a fanfictionalized reality that’s like whoa, whoa, whoa, guys. They really have never even… They’ve never participated in this.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Jordan: Like, you know, I’m a Kaylor truther ’cause that’s fun, but like, Taylor… And Taylor has her, you know. There’s, I think a worthwhile conversation to be had around, like, Taylor and some queerbaiting. But where does the queerbaiting stop and the presumption of queerness become so fucking intense that queerbaiting appears to be happening at this egregious scale where you’re like, “But guys, she just never said she was bi.”

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: And the only visible, actual, tangible evidence we have of this person outside the Zapruder film of her and Karlie Kloss in that club, like beyond that, uh… All evidence in front of us is like, “This is a heterosexual woman.”

Drew: Also, I’m sorry but, like, have you met… Like, straight girls can, like, get drunk and make out with each other.

Jordan: Yeah.

Drew: Like, I mean… Obviously, what is straight? What is queer?

Jordan: Barsexual is real.

Drew: And it’s this thing where you don’t want to just, like, assume people are straight based on… Like, that feels heteronormative.

Jordan: (laughs) I never wanna assume people I think highly of are straight, okay?

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: That’s true. That’s true.

Drew: But there is, there is this thing where it’s like… I don’t know. I think I started making a concerted effort to be thirstier towards queer celebrities over straight celebrities because I was sensing that the safety of them being straight was causing me to lift up—

Christina: Mm.

Drew: Because as we’ve talked about, you’re not just thirsting… It’s not… You’re thirsting over their careers, their art, and their personas as well.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And so it was like oh, we’re not supporting our own queer people or, like—

Jordan: Yeah.

Drew: And look, there’s room for all of it and I’ll certainly participate in all of it, but I was like oh. And also, a lot the queer celebrities actually have aesthetics that I respond to more both from a wanna be them and a wanna be with them.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And so, like, why am I obsessing over the one time this straight person put on a suit?

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: Instead be like, “What about all these queer people who are doing, like… who are always wearing suits or doing more interesting things with fashion in general or are just like, hot,” you know?

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Wow. Somewhere Cate Blanchett just sat up and was like, “I feel like I’m being talked about.”

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: I have been really anti-Cate Blanchett in the last few episodes of this podcast and I don’t mean to be. I really… I do love Cate Blanchett.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: I will say that the way that I express the sort of fantasy celebrity crushes that we’re talking about is in older actors, as in like in Katharine Hepburn.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: Or like I just watched Queen Christina with Greta Garbo and, like there might be a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percent chance that someday I will meet Angelina Jolie and fall in love.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: But there is no chance in hell that I will ever meet Greta Garbo and fall in love.

Jordan: Yeah. (laughs)

Drew: Unless time travel gets invented. So I think that’s sort of the space where I do most of my sort of exploratory identity crushes in that sort of way, like with people who… Or even people who are still alive but, you know. Like, I mean, it’s not that I wouldn’t still hook up with Jane Fonda, but it’s more of a like, “You’re an icon from another era.”

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: We’re not in the same age bracket. I don’t think it’s likely for us.

Christina: Oh, you and Jane Fonda aren’t in the same age bracket?

Drew: I—

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: I learn so much every day.

Drew: Yeah, we really aren’t. And it’s like we’re close, but… Uh, you know. I have a limit.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: But yeah.

Christina: I do think part of it for me is also just, like, my general fascination with celebrity, like, machinations.

Jordan: Mm.

Christina: And, like, the press machine and the way that celebrities present themselves. I have always found fascinating. And especially as they have become, I personally think for worse, more accessible to us watching how they decide to do that and in what ways they decide to do that, and frankly, like, a lot of the times it’s me just being like, “Well, why are we doing that in this way?”

Jordan: Yeah.

Christina: I find that very fascinating to watch, like the behind the scenes machinations of whatever their little brains are doing when they say like, “It’s time to be on Instagram Live today.” I’m like—

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: Ooh, boy. Maybe it isn’t. Maybe we should take celebrities off of Instagram Live forever.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Perhaps that’s the solution here.

Jordan: Unless it’s Jojo and she’s singing.

Christina: I mean, but then again, like… How many times over the pandemic does Sarah Paulson get lightly toasted and hop on Instagram Live and, like, steal Holland Taylor’s glasses and just, like, talk about how she didn’t have any eyebrows ’cause she was being Linda Tripp? Sometimes it’s really delightful. And, like, I’m so sorry to Sarah’s PR people because I’m sure they were exhausted those couple of months.

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: But I just find the presentation of famous person who is trying to be famous person, but knowable to regular people very fun to dissect and think about just from a PR standpoint because my straight persona comes out and I think about, you know, my career in PR.

Jordan: (laughs) And it’s interesting looking at how the youth handle this.

Christina: Mm.

Jordan: And actors who I really enjoy. Ella Hunt, who was, Sue on Dickinson and who maybe you found in Anna and the Apocalypse before that and thoroughly enjoyed her.

Drew: That movie’s good.

Jordan: That movie is fantastic.

Drew: I love that movie.

Jordan: And Ella Hunt is a firecracker of a person. And over the course of making Dickinson, it became clear that, like, she realized that she was queer. Like as the show was like, “Oh, I think your kind of, like, dabbling in this,” until finally in the last season I remember she was asked about her own possible queerness. And she was like, “I think I am, but, like, I think it’s more of a mentality thing.” She did this thing that kind of separated being sexually queer from being, like, abstractly, intellectually queer.

And a fan responded to her on Twitter and was like, “I love you. You’re amazing. I love the show. But it really, actually hurt me when you said that, like queer is a mindset, ’cause, like, a lot of of us are queer in, like, a full-body, total way, and it’s not easy for us out here and it’s not just a thought process we can dip in and out of sometimes. And so, like, I just… Like, I love you. I think you’re the best. But I just wanted to express to you why that made me uncomfortable.”

And she responded back to that fan and was like, “You know, you’re right. Like, I can say that and there is so little consequence of me being able to just, like, say like, ‘I’m queer in spirit. When the reality is I’m getting used to talking about this and I don’t know how yet and I am queer. I do experience a range of sexual attraction to men and women,” and she clarified it. And I was like… That level of accountability. It like… And it made… Because she posts for the gays.

Christina: She really do.

Jordan: She loves to post for the lesbians. And to state it explicitly like, “This is for the lesbians.” And I think the delineation between doing that, like thirst posting for the gays and saying, “This is for the gays,” when you have said, “I am queer. I am among you. I am one of you,” that suddenly feels like a joyful thing to see and witness and participate in whereas before, it’s like it’s a cute thing you do, but also, like, at the end of the day, this is drag for you.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: So is that okay that you’re doing that?

Christina: Mm.

Jordan: Like you’re not queer. But then when she’s like, “Actually, I’m learning how to talk about it…” Now I think it’s just the cutest thing and I’m like, “Look at this early twentysomething coming out of basically her college age years and being like, “This one’s for the sapphics out there,” and she’s, like, posting pictures of herself in Miu Miu designer lingerie. It’s like okay, great. Yeah, because you’re part of the gang.

Christina: Now you’re part of the club.

Jordan: So it’s something that you are sharing in with people and you could be thirst scrolling on your own time looking at whoever, men, women, all inclusive. But, like, you’re not just dipping in, throwing out a treat for the queers then being like, “Then I’m gonna retreat to my beautiful cishet, normative, wealthy life, and, like, you guys can deal with the consequences of how your feelings are trapping you in perhaps a place you don’t wanna be.”

Christina: It’s like Pride Month for celebrities.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: I think that’s why when there are celebrities where I’m like, “I think that person’s queer,” and I will get a little obsessed with them, I just get… It’s not on principle like, “I no longer am obsessed with you because you’re still either straight or closeted.” I just find I get tired of it. Like, they just don’t stay in the rotation of longterm crushes.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Drew: But I don’t know. It’s interesting ’cause when I was younger, my version of run me over with a truck was, “I want to marry that person.” It was very much like, “Oh, I wanna be them.” I look back on who those people were and they were just all these people who I was associating with a certain type of femininity that I wanted to be. And it’s interesting to track that to me being like, “Someday, I could be with Angelina Jolie,” because—

Jordan: As somebody whose first love was Angelina Jolie, I’m loving her as the static example.

Christina: Yeah, I love that she’s like the one.

Jordan: Yeah. She’s the one.

Drew: It makes me think that as I have, you know, come into my queerness and my transness and feel very sort of settled into my identity as anyone can be settled, whatever, but those things are becoming more the same. Not like who I wanna be with and who I wanna be, but the life that feels tangible and the life that feels fantasy for me in the sense where I’m like… When I say that, what I’m saying is I wanna be successful enough in my career that I could be in the same circle as Angelina Jolie.

Christina: Sure.

Jordan: Yeah.

Drew: It’s also a declaration of fantasies that go beyond sort of the vagueness that I couldn’t name back in, you know, my high school years.

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: I was gonna ask if, if you found that… Like, if as you realized yourself fully into something not, like, necessarily like, “I am Angelina Jolie.”

Christina: (laughs)

Jordan: But, like, into—

Christina: Drew’s final form. (laughs)

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: Yeah. Like maybe. Like, as you realize yourself fully or are realized fully, do you find that the objects of your desire have evolved away from what they used to be because these were people that were, um, they were previously perhaps figures that you were modeling yourself on and towards?

Drew: Yeah.

Jordan: And now that you have modeled that and you are that, is the objects of desire, then, are they something different than what they formally would’ve been? Because it’s like oh no, these were people I was, like, aspiring towards. And now that I am that, a form of that, I now desire something that is quite different, or is it pretty consistent?

Drew: Um, I think it’s definitely changed, but it’s interesting ’cause it’s not that I actually attained what I was desiring.

Jordan: Jolie’s Jolieness.

Christina: (laughs)

Drew: But see, like, Angelina Jolie wouldn’t have been on my list as a teenager. Like who I would’ve thought of as a teenager was like Natalie Portman, Carey Mulligan—

Jordan: Classics.

Drew: —Michelle Williams, the actor. Like it was people—

Christina: Please, use her proper name: White Michelle Williams.

Drew: (laughs) Yes.

Jordan: (laughs) White Michelle Williams.

Drew: It was a sorta pixie cut, teeny-tiny, petite femininity. Like, this sort of idea that I had, this very narrow, societally-created idea of, you know, what womanhood I could aspire to.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Drew: I didn’t realize it was happening, but, um… And I didn’t become that. At a certain point, I didn’t have interest in becoming that.

Jordan: Right.

Drew: I mean, I still think, you know, they’re good actors. Especially Michelle Williams. She is still among my favorite contemporary actors, but they don’t consume my thoughts the same way.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Drew: But I do think a lot of the people now who I have crushes on— Which I actually really wanna do for all of us. I know we have our final segment, which will be crush specific, but I wanna get into who are the people who have lasted over time. For me, a lot of the people who have lasted over time are the ones who maybe are more in the fantasy space of old Hollywood.

Jordan: Mm.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: And I think in the present day, it really fluctuates. I don’t have celebrity crushes the same way I used to. I think now, beyond the old Hollywood people, I mostly will, like… I’ll watch an indie queer movie that will star an actress who is in my age range, has been in like a handful of projects, and— This is not me confessing that my current relationship is because I had— I had not seen any of Elise’s work before. (laughs)

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: Um, I just wanna clarify that.

Christina: I was just, I was just gonna sit here silently and be like…

Drew: But I do think that now, being really like, “Oh wow, that person’s really compelling. I wanna, like… I wanna be their friend, even.” Like, I just… I get drawn towards people who are more like at my level or like a step or two above. I respond to the, like, icons like Angelina Jolie in a very different way where I’m just like, “I really like your work.” I’ll get, like, sort of obsessed with their movies. And I don’t necessarily call it a crush, but I guess it is a crush. Like, I watched every — not every but most — Kirsten Dunst movies earlier this year in the span of like a month. And that was something like a crush.

Jordan: That’s a robust filmography, so yes.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: You also had your Nicole Kidman phase to.

Drew: I did have my Nicole Kidman phase where I did watch every one that was available, and she works a lot. I watched… I think the project ended up being a 56-film project. I was going through depression. This was 2018.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: It was a long time ago. But I guess those would be crushes. I guess what I’m realizing is that as the years go on, what I would’ve maybe before just been like, “I have such a crush on this person.” It now becomes more stratified into all these different ways of expression. And I guess they do count as crushes.

Christina: Wow. We really learned something about you.

Drew: Yeah. What about the two of you? Who are people who have really stuck with you over the years, or who you’re sort of circling around now?

Christina: Well, I mean, Catherine Zeta-Jones has been kind of— I mean, that was, uh, many would say, my gateway drug into being a lesbian. Which is actually interesting ’cause now when I think back on it, I famously, or not that famously, depending on, uh, how often you listen to me talk on podcasts, had a very large wall of exclusively Catherine Zeta-Jones’ photos in my bedroom as a child. And I would be furious when my parents suggested that perhaps I was some kind of gay.

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: I was like, “I don’t know why you would say that,” and then I’d, like, turn back to the printer and, like, waste 18,000 more dollars of printer ink printing out stills from Chicago.

Jordan: Looking over your shoulder as you’re tacking another photo up on the wall.

Christina: On the wall opposite, I had, like, a very halfhearted just like… There was like three… It was like, uh, Viggo Mortensen from Lord of the Rings.

Drew: Not a lesbian at all. No.

Christina: .Just like three men kind of stabbed at random into the wall. And I was like, “Yeah, and also these guys.” Like, okay. Didn’t try very hard at that. But I definitely, as I was going through my early adulthood and was like, “Yep, I guess I’m just straight but a great ally,” I did a lot less of my, like, what my brand is now, my public thirsting, and I don’t really think it was until I came out and was like, oh, now this is fun again to just be publicly like, “That lady’s hot as hell.” Like, that’s really fun now in a way that I just felt kinda locked off from when I was pretending to be a straight person.

But yeah, Catherine has been… God bless her. She is… Talk about a lunatic Instagram presence. My lord. She’s really been up there for many years for me. But I really do like… it kind of just rotates. It’s like what am I watching at the moment? My lock screen will be dependent on whatever television show I just binged. And that actress will probably stay that lock screen for a period of time, and then I will watch something else and that will be my new hyperfixation for a couple of months and then will just… It’s like this unending circle for me.

What about you, Jordan?

Jordan: Um, it really happens to be… Like, the impetus is Angelina Jolie.

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: That really…

Christina: A classic. A classic of the genre.

Drew: Love it. My future wife.

Jordan: Yeah. Your future wife, friend, collaborator.

Drew: Yeah.

Jordan: All of the above. I was doing a Q&A for, um, a horror movie, The Lodge. And it had Lia McHugh? That little girl who was also in The Eternals. And this happened really shortly before lockdown, and she was just coming home from being off of six months of filming The Eternals. And I’m standing there talking to her mom, a lovely woman. And her mom was talking about how just, like, Angie—

Drew: Sure.

Christina: For those in the know.

Jordan: They were just set moms together. And just telling me the most ordinary, adorable, dorky stories about knowing this person and, like, coming to know her and their kids hanging out and they all love horror movies. They watched horror movies together and how on Halloween, Lia and her mom were in their little apartment they were staying in and all the little Jolie-Pitt children come, like, running up and scare them in the sliding glass window wearing spooky masks. And then Angelina Jolie walks up in a spooky mask and scares them too. And I was like, “It is still my dream that Angelina Jolie would come scare me in a spooky mask at a fuckin’ sliding glass door.” Like, I was listening so intently while trying to come off as just, like, unmoved and being like, “No, I wanna hear every fucking-thing you can tell me about this person.”

Christina: I need every detail here.

Jordan: I need every normal detail you can share ’cause, like, I remember when I was, uh, 15, it was like on my 15th birthday, I went to see Lara Croft: Tomb Raider with my best friend at the time, Christine.

Christina: Talk about a gateway drug.

Jordan: Talk about a gateway drug.

Christina: Hoo.

Jordan: My life had already been positively fucking shattered by Gia.

Drew: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: A movie and… Elizabeth Mitchell.

Christina: Elizabeth Mitchell.

Jordan: Fucking formative. Elizabeth Mitchell and Angelina Jolie both. Probably started with Gia. Unyielding still.

I watched Lara Croft: Tomb Raider. Get back. We walk to my grandpa’s house afterwards. We were gonna go swimming in the pool. He was not a subscriber to Rolling Stone magazine, but a Rolling Stone magazine was sitting on his table, and it was the cover of her photographed by David LaChapelle wearing, like, the white linen and the cover line says, “Blood Sugar Sex Magic.” And she’s laying there, like finger pulling down the lip, like exposed, like, hip bones tattoo. And I picked it up and I was like, “Grandpa, can this be my birthday present?”

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: And he was like, “Yeah, it’s here on accident. You can take it with you.” And it was, like, reading that profile, I decided to become a journalist because I needed to put myself in a position where I could be writing a profile about Angelina Jolie.

Drew: Wow.

Jordan: Where I could be in proximity of this person. It was just like that… through that figure, through the figure of her, I learned what obsession was. I learned what obsession was.

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: Probably the youngest, most fixated-upon, uh, figures for me were Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Connelly. Opportunity Knocks, both that and Labyrinth, of course, made big impressions. And that was when… And, even, like, watching Maverick recently, literally every time Jennifer Connelly’s face popped up on screen, every single time I just went, “Oh, God.”

Drew: (laughs)

Christina: (laughs)

Jordan: Like, audibly. I, like, gasped and “Oh, God,” like every fucking time. And it’s just like wow. You just get more resplendent as the years go on. So I wanna say those are two that have always been very, very enduring for me.

Christina: I will say I worked at a farm stand when I was in high school in Upstate New York, and Jennifer Connelly and Paul Bettany entered the farm stand I worked in. I looked at Jennifer Connelly and said, “That woman looks like a shorter Demi Moore.” And then I said, “Well, that’s because it’s Jennifer
Connelly.” And they were… She and Paul and their two or three children — cannot remember how many they have — all dressed in white.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: They purchased some baked goods and I believe some pumpkins and then they simply floated away. And I was like, “Okay.”

Jordan: (laughs) There they are.

Christina: Famous people. There they go.

Jordan: Wow.

Christina: There they go being famous.

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: It’s happening. Okay, they’re real.

Jordan: (laughs) They’re real.

Drew: The last thing I wanna touch on is I know for me, I really like talking about celebrity crushes with people who I’m dating, with partners, with people who I’m flirting with. It feels like the sort of fantasy space that we’re talking about. It feels like a really sort of low stakes way of flirting, of talking about attraction. Of talking about what we’re into. Like, how does that manifest for both of you?

Christina: I will say it has manifested in a lot of friendships for me because I do absolutely find and make a lot of friends on Twitter via the thirst.

Jordan: I think that’s how the Simple Favor podcast happened.

Christina: I quite literally do.

Jordan: It was a thread about Blake Lively in suit GIFs.

Christina: Yeah. And, um, I do meet a lot of people in that space, though I tend to meet a lot of, like, bottoms, just like a lot of fellow bottoms who’ve all come together in my DMs in a way that I think is beautiful, but in a way that we’re all like, “Hmm, probably nothing’s gonna happen betwixt us. But like, God bless. Go off and, you know, get stomped on by somebody that’s probably not gonna be either of us.”

Jordan: We’re not gonna make that move.

Christina: Just to be as CT as possible, you know?

Jordan: (laughs) Yeah. For me, I think that is… Despite the fact that I’m not having sex with anybody nor have I, to me that is… it’s one of my favorite conversations to have. Like, what Christina, what you were saying, being so interested in the machinations of celebrity and the performance of persona and as I get older, the performance… the awareness of, like, the performance of gender. Like, if I meet people who will get maybe not as, ’cause I’m a very animated individual, but will get, like, as close to animated as I do about these kinds of conversations and I realize that we are both compelled by, like, the sociology of celebrity and aesthetics, then I’m like, “Oh, we’ve got something here.”

Christina: Yeah.

Jordan: We are bonding on a specific level where like we could take this conversation one table down and they’d be like, “This means literally nothing.”

Christina: (laughs)

Jordan: “And is the most superficial, insubstantial thing you can be saying.”

Christina: This is gobbledygook to me.

Jordan: And I’m like, “But the thing is, it’s what’s makes the world go round.”

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: That overriding sensorial power of a beautiful person in front of you is such an incredible fucking magic trick that, like not many people have and when they have it, it’s not because they asked for it or they practiced it, it’s just because it’s there? Remarkable. And I wanna be around that and I wanna talk about that, and so if somebody can get on this conversation path with me about this thing, I’m like, “Oh yeah, we have the sustainable, good foundation for a friendship here. Yes.”

Christina: It’s true. As a person who is friends with Jordan, now every time I watch something that I know— Like when I started watching The Expanse, I was like, “The fact that I know I can text Jordan about this, this is gonna be so fun.”

Jordan: Yes. (laughs)

Christina: This is gonna be so fun and so unhinged, and we… the two of us—

Jordan: So unhinged.

Christina: —are about to lose our minds in the text.

Jordan: Yeah, we’ll just text back and forth, like, Elizabeth Mitchell stills to each other, and it’ll be a meaningful conversation.

Christina: Yeah. Meaning, meaning.

Drew: Okay, this feels extremely redundant, but should we move to crush corner?

Christina: I know. Now I’m like, “Whomst among?”

Drew: Start us off.

Christina: Yeah, start us off.

Jordan: It’s, uh, Kelly Reilly, star of Yellowstone.

Christina: Wow. Okay. Bringing Yellowstone into the pod.

Jordan: Star of Yellowstone. The first time I experienced Yellowstone, it was when I was home for Christmas. And my sister and her husband, they watch it, love it. My mom, it’s become her whole personality.

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: Like, it is. But, like, I remember when I got there and, like, Yellowstone was on ’cause it’s always playing on Paramount Network ’cause they’re like, “This is the thing we have,” and that—

Christina: True.

Jordan: Like, it was on. And mom was like… And Spencer was like, my brother-in-law, he’s like, “We have to turn this off. And don’t bring up Yellowstone around your mom. She will not stop talking about it.” And she won’t. And if you don’t like a character she likes, she will defend them like they are her family and you are not. So, like, I watch enough of it to see Beth Dutton be a catastrophe.

Christina: Good.

Jordan: And I was like… My mom and Riley and Spencer were there. I was like, “Who is that character?” And they’re like, “Oh, that’s Beth. She’s Kevin Costner’s daughter in the show. She’s a nightmare.”

Christina: I forgot Kevin Costner… Wow, what a show.

Jordan: And I was… They talk about, like, just what a horrible bitch she was. And I was like, “Okay, she’s my favorite character and she’s why I’m gonna watch Yellowstone.” And my mom was like, “Oh, no. She’s awful.”

Drew: (laughs)

Jordan: I was like, “Which is why she’s my favorite character and why I’m gonna watch Yellowstone.”

Christina: Like, what’s not clicking?

Jordan: I was like, “Mom, you don’t understand how Twitter watches television.”

Christina: Yeah, no.

Jordan: She’s gold.

Christina: You have to find the villain. You have to find the villain.

Jordan: The villain. And like the first time I ever saw her in anything was the absolutely godawful season two of True Detective where she was wasted and inexplicable and, like, what is any of this? So to see her getting to just slur her way through lines and ruin people’s lives being gorgeous, I’m just like, “Oh, this is… You are a zenith.”

Christina: Oof. Good one. Drew, who do you have this week?

Drew: I’m doing the entire cast of P-Valley.

Jordan: Oh, yes.

Christina: Gorgeous.

Jordan: Great choice.

Drew: It is such an incredible show. I’m just— every, every week watching an episode and I’m just like, “It’s just better and better.” It’s so good. The first season was incredible. The second season? Somehow better. And the cast is so attractive. Especially gonna shout out Brandee Evans as Mercedes. Best character. Great show.

Christina: Hmm.

Drew: But even the, like, straight people who I don’t like… The characters are servicing the show so it’s fine, but, like, I don’t like them. They’re not the storyline I care that much about. Whatever. When they have sex, it is so hot. And I am so invested in it. And, and I’m like, “I don’t really care about, like, your inner dealings and workings and you’re running for mayor and all the stuff. I don’t care. But you are so hot when you’re having sex.” And this is straight people. And so when the queer people are hooking up, it’s… I… I love… Oh, it’s so good.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: What a great show. What a great show. Katori Hall, incredible playwright and incredible TV writer.

Christina: I love it.

Jordan: Outstanding.

Christina: Uh, my crush this week, the one, the only Sheryl Lee Ralph.

Drew: Yes.

Jordan: Outstanding.

Christina: You know…

Jordan: Emmy nominee?

Christina: Emmy nominee.

Jordan: Emmy nominee.

Christina: And I would like to say I’m thrilled that she is nominated for Abbott Elementary. I am just appalled that this is her first Emmy nomination.

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Her first Emmy nomination.

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: Just to repeat that. This is the Sheryl Lee Ralph, a woman who was so powerful in Sister Act 2 that I thought singing in a choir in your Catholic school was adjacent to doing drugs.

Drew: (laughs)
Christina: Because that was the energy that she brought to that performance. And I love everything that she does. I feel comforted when I see her face. She has a very chaotic Instagram Reel, TikTok presence, which is very often just her walking around in her pool. I think it’s great. I want nothing but the best for her, and I think she’s the perfect woman.

Drew: Incredible.

Christina: And that’s the story of her. (laughs)

Jordan: Amazing.

Drew: Incredible. Jordan, tell people where they can find you and all of your podcasts.

Christina: And all 18,000 of your podcasts.

Jordan: (laughs)

Christina: Which we will valiantly link to.

Jordan: Thank you.

Christina: We will find every single one of them.

Jordan: You can find me on Twitter, @JorCru, J-O-R-C-R-U, and then, uh, yeah, Disaster Girls, we’ve been on a bit of a summer break lately but otherwise, like, there are more than a hundred episodes of that. There’s a big back catalog and it’s a weekly pod. Aughtsterion will be coming back very soon, and we have a very special guest for episode number one that I am very excited to debut.

The Botcast just wrapped up, so you can listen to that eight-episode series that we just did. And then there’s the Maximum Fun podcast which comes out every week. And we’ve had awesome people on like Chris Landon talking about seeing himself in Mommie Dearest. And Bridget Everett was on talking about seeing herself in the movie Rudy. We’re having very nice talks with people, and so I would like for you to come and listen to us and check us out.

Christina: Bridget Everett, who was robbed of an Emmy nomination I would say.

Jordan: Absolutely. Absolutely agree.

Christina: Wow. Thank you so much for joining us and talking about being run over and doing all of the things that we love to do here on this pod and on the internet.

Jordan: Thank you so much for having me. I very much appreciate being asked, and I’m so happy to have been podcasting with you once again.

Christina: Yay.

Jordan: And to meet the Drew Gregory. Wha-what… I mean, what honors abound?

Christina: Yes. She’s famous. She’s a star.

Drew: Thanks.

Jordan: (laughs)

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date?. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at @WaitIsThisADate, and you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein, our logo is by Maanya Dhar and this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok at @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter at @C_GraceT and on Instagram at christina_gracet. And you can find Autostraddle, of course, at @autostraddle.

Drew: And you can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com, the reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Uh, Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually that’s really interesting that you ask that, because scientists are, at this very moment, hurriedly trying to figure this out. And we have some of our best scholars on this, um, on the case here. We don’t have an answer, uh, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): Does a celebrity crush stop being a celebrity crush once you get to know someone? And two, does interviewing someone from professional context count as getting to know them? This is total hypothetical.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 205: Public Relationships

As someone who has always been ambitious, it seems inevitable I’d end up in a power couple. Sure, you can be the kind of ambitious person who wants a partner who tends to your needs while you pursue whatever it is you’re pursuing. But that has never been hot to me. Dating someone with equal ambitions is hot to me.

But being in a public relationship isn’t just the joys of ambitious4ambitious. There’s also the matter of boundaries and privacy. My girlfriend and I have only a small amount of fame (I’d argue a small amount of gay fame even) so this week we’ve brought on someone in an even more gaymous power couple: Grace Lavery. You may know Grace from her memoir Please Miss, from her various writings on the internet, or, if you’re really niche, as your former professor at Berkeley. And you may know Grace’s husband Danny Lavery from his books such as Something That May Shock and Discredit You and co-founding a little website called The Toast.

We talked to Grace about her relationship with Danny, how they navigate public opinion, and being young trans elders. And first! We play a game I like to call “Second Moves” where Christina has to respond to theoretical opening lines on Raya — yeah, that’s right, we’re on Raya.

SHOW NOTES

+ The Jessie Ware album Christina was referencing is What’s Your Pleasure?

+ The sexiest book Christina has read recently is Breaking Character.

+ Christina’s article about Grace and Danny’s wedding.

+ Danny’s work referenced by Grace: Texts from Jane Eyre and Something That May Shock and Discredit You.

+ Delighted to learn that Grace walked down the aisle to Marina’s “Primadonna.”

+ Pretty sure when Grace said I had transfeminine Chatterton energy that was a reference to poet Thomas Chatterton who I have learned killed himself at 17??

+ Speaking of English poets, Grace referenced writing an essay about Matthew Arnold and this might be that essay.

+ It’s worth watching The Red Shoes in slightly higher quality on The Criterion Channel — but I’m noting that the entire movie is on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ga6wgQjNU&ab_channel=TheWanderer

+ Grace’s crush this week was, um, Stannary Law: A History of the Mining Law of Cornwall and Devon by Robert R. Pennington.

+ You should read the interview I did with Grace about her memoir.

+ And you should read Please Miss: A Staggering Work of Heartbreaking Penis.

EPISODE

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: Welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

[theme song plays]

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? is an Autostraddle podcast all about, wait, is this a date? That’s what it’s about.

Drew: You have a really chaotic energy— I was going to say this morning, but it’s 3:00 PM. The illusion of the podcast. It’s whatever time you’re listening to this. But you have a really great energy that I think is rubbing off on me as I keep talking.

Christina: Ooh, good. I think it’s fun to bring a little chaos. I was worried that I was going to be too low energy so I said, “Just pep yourself the hell up, just go for it,” and as ever, I might immediately regret that, but for now, that’s where we’re living.

Drew: By Crush Corner, you’re going to be crashing.

Christina: Yes, I do think that’s very true.

Drew: Great. I can’t wait. I’m Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker and a queer person and a trans woman.

Christina: First of all, I think it’s huge to note that Drew did not even have a pause in between any of those identities that was… Drew said, “I came to play. I know who I am today.” I think that’s really gorgeous and beautiful.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: I’m Christina Tucker. I am also a writer at Autostraddle and a podcaster around the damn globe, but mostly in the United States, mostly in the Northeast as that’s where I’m located. Crushing it also. Am I? Yeah, I am a black lesbian who has been on the beach for so long that my brain’s kind of just a sand mush so we’re really going to live out loud this here episode.

Drew: Great. I also want to say up top, I think this is already in our A plus ad that we already had and that you hopefully listened to, but for those of you who skip through ads — which our ads are very funny, you shouldn’t skip through them, — but if you want to be in our mailbag episode, you should be an A plus member and then submit a question. It can be anonymous. It can be in voice memo form. It can be an email form. Send us your questions.

Christina: We’re going to answer them. We’re going to have minisodes. That’s just a fun word to say, so let’s go.

Drew: I do have a game for you.

Christina: As ever, I’m panicking lightly but…

Drew: Initially, my idea was to just be like, “Christina, pull up your dating apps. I want you to read to me the most recent messages you received,” since I assumed you would never send the first message. And I wanted to just be like, “We’re going to craft some responses.” I told that to my girlfriend and she told me that’s not a game, that’s just bullying, and so I was like, “Fine. Okay.”

Christina: Elise is an ally. Thank you.

Drew: Yeah, and so I came up with a game that’s more hypothetical, but I think still counts as bullying. I call this game Second Moves. And I have come up with based on your Raya profile that I have access to because we matched on Raya, not in a romantic capacity, but more of a like, “Hey, it’s a friend on Raya,” banter banter banter, et cetera. Anyways…

Christina: Incredible humble brag that we’re both on Raya just for the record.

Drew: Look, I’m… Okay, so basically how it works is I’m going to say possible first moves that people might say to you based on your Raya profile. I’m going to say these opening lines and you have to say a response. You have to say a response. You can’t ignore.

Christina: I have to respond. I can’t—

Drew: You have to respond. Theoretically, you want to respond—

Christina: Okay.

Drew: You like this person’s vibe. You think they’re hot. You’re tired of your friends making fun of you for not dating. You’re getting back out there. Okay?

Christina: Fair enough.

Drew: First one, “Hey.”

Christina: This is so hard because I simply wouldn’t respond to a “hey,” and this is a great note for people who are out there on dating apps. A “hey” gives you nothing to build off of.

Drew: That’s true.

Christina: If I was feeling spicy and I did like this person, though in fairness to me, liking this person would go down quite a bit if I received a “hey,” I would either just write an ellipsis with a question mark if I was feeling really rude, or I would say, “Hey, what?”, if I was in a good mood, but it’s more likely than not that I would just do an ellipsis with a question mark, or as we assume, not respond, but that’s not an option so I’m responding.

Drew: I love that. Thanks for playing the game. Okay. Next step.

Christina: Hard.

Drew: These are purposefully… I want the people at home to know these are common responses. I would never message someone, “Hey.” I want that on the record. The next one is also something I would never say, but I have received my version of this which is, “How’s Philly today?”

Christina: Yeah. That would involve me having to know what was happening in the greater city of Philadelphia or even in my neighborhood. It would involve me maybe going outside, but given that it’s July, I think a pretty safe response would be like, “IDK, hot,” because it’s, I don’t know, 85 degrees and humid today.

Drew: That’s also good because it leaves room open for some flirting because hot has multiple meanings.

Christina: Right, and this is, again, this is me being very welcoming in a way that’s brave.

Drew: Yes. The next one is inspired by your Raya song. For people who aren’t on Raya, basically the way it works is you have a song that plays with your profile. Anyways, so it is, “OMG. I love Jessie Ware.”

Christina: Oh, I was like, “I don’t even remember what my Raya song profile is. I forgot that there was one.” I would say, “Obviously, me too,” but I’m not saying that. That’s lame. I would say, “What album? I love Spotlight. I love Pleasure Principle.” Pleasure Principle is a Janet Jackson album. I would say whatever that other one is. I would try to pull something out of these people.

Drew: Cool. I love it.

Christina: It’s like pulling teeth over here. This is not making me excited to date, Drew.

Drew: I know, but I’m trying to, because I think what happens a lot of times is people are just like, “I don’t know what to say,” so I’m just trying to… We’re working up stuff, okay.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: This is another tricky one that I feel like is pretty common in lesbian dating spaces.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: “You’re so pretty,” heart eyes emoji.

Christina: I do really hate that one. That one is really rough.

Drew: Yeah. It’s not great.

Christina: Typically, if it’s a person I’m interested in, I would probably just have to respond in kind, like a, “Thank you. You look great in this photo.” Maybe if I was feeling crazy, I would be like, “What are you doing in that photo?”, or like, “Where were you? When was that?”, try to get a little something out of… something a little more where we could build off something, but yeah, “You’re so pretty,” is really hard to respond to because it’s like… I mean, my gut reaction is always like, “Yeah, I know. I picked the photo. I look good in it.”

Drew: See, I think that’s a better response than, “You too.” I never give compliments because someone gives me a compliment even if I do think that person’s pretty. I’ll be like… You can’t… I don’t know. It feels forced. I like, “I know,” that if I said to someone, which I never would, “You’re so pretty,” on a dating app and they said, “I know,” I would be a little bit obsessed with that. Okay, this is also specific to your dating profile. “That third picture! Do you ride a motorcycle?”

Christina: Again.

Drew: A picture of you wearing those fun—

Christina: Oh, the moto— Yeah. No, I don’t ride a motorcycle and I would probably say I’ll never ride a motorcycle. They’re so loud. Why are they so loud? They don’t have to be that loud.

Drew: It gives a good introduction to who you are. Okay.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: “Wait, this is wild. My grandparents live in New Paltz.”

Christina: Oh, boy. Yeah, a town of old people and college students. I don’t know. If their grandparents live in New Paltz though, I probably know them, which is funny to think about. It’s like, “Oh, who are they? Does my mom know your mom?”

Drew: I love that. “What’s the sexiest book you’ve read lately?”

Christina: The sexiest book I’ve read lately? Well, luckily, I’m just coming off of a hot week of beach vacations where I only read lesbian romances. I did read one called Breaking Character about an older actress in her 40s who falls in love with her co-star.

Drew: Nice. How old is the co-star?

Christina: 28.

Drew: Yeah, sure.

Christina: Yeah. Come on. Hello.

Drew: I have two more for you.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Okay. “I stalked your Instagram and saw you host a dating podcast, so you must be really good at this, huh?”

Christina: I would say, “No. The joke of the dating podcast is that I don’t do it.”

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Convince me otherwise. Change my mind.

Drew: Ooh, okay. I like it.

Christina: That could be fun.

Drew: The last one is, “Our only mutual is Drew Gregory, but I think that’s a good sign. She’s amazing.”

Christina: I would have to say, “Drew, delete your dummy account and stop messaging me on this, on this dating app.”

Drew: That is fair. I think we learned something today, which is that you can always think of something to message someone on a dating app, and even if what someone messages you is not good, you can always think of a response. I think that’s an important lesson.

Christina: No, I think it’s good for our listeners to know that you can make anything work, but also maybe put a little more effort in than just a simple, “Hey.”

Drew: I like specific. I like when you look at a profile and go off of very specific things. If the Instagram is linked, go on the Instagram, find a specific thing, get conversations going, find things that can maybe lead to some flirting. “You’re so pretty,” is less likely to lead to flirting even though you’re giving a compliment than, “What’s the sexiest book you’ve read lately?” because you’re going to be talking about sex.

Christina: You are.

Drew: And actresses in their 40s having affairs with their co-stars in their 20s.

Christina: Great book. Let me tell you what.

Drew: Should we get into our main topic this week?

Christina: I think we should. I think we should get our guest on because she’s been just vamping in this corner just given us looks and vibes, and I’m real excited to hear her dang voice. Guest, would you like to be unsilenced and introduce yourself?

Grace: Hey, I’m Grace Lavery. I’m a writer, an academic, and I live in Brooklyn.

Christina: We love it.

Drew: We love that. We wanted to have you on for this episode because we wanted to have you on in general for a lot of reasons, but we wanted to have you on for this episode because you are in a public relationship especially in queer spaces. I feel like a lot of queer people—

Grace: We’re gaymous. Yeah.

Drew: Yes. Gaymous.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: Exactly, and you also write about your relationship.

Grace: Yeah. I have done that. I have done that somewhat to my husband’s embarrassment since he is, habitually, I think, a far more private person than I am. But also the thing is that usually I just think about it as I’m married to a minor celebrity so it’s kind of flattering to hear that I have a stake in that in my own person.

Christina: Yeah, no. It’s like attracts like on this relationship. I mean, as the person who wrote about your wedding for autostraddle.com, the website…

Grace: Oh, God, you did. Yeah.

Christina: I sure did. I simply will have to say that I think you guys… Different corners of gaymous, of gaymo fame-o, maybe internet presence, but I think both are really bringing something to the table here.

Grace: I think that’s right. I don’t feel like I’m just fully wifed and fully placed in the kind of her indoors capacity. However, sometimes we get recognized together in public when we’re on the subway, and sometimes Danny just gets recognized on his own when we’re on the subway and I just sit there and nod. I think one time, I got recognized and he didn’t, but I’m not really sure and it might just be a wishful thinking, to be honest.

Christina: No, I’m sure it was you.

Grace: Oh, gosh. Well.

Christina: Drew, you also kind of have a public fame-o relationship going on.

Drew: I do, and similarly, she is much more private than I am. That is something that we navigate because I think I was really, I think, hesitant to announce that we were dating. I’m really slow to do that, but then once I was confident enough in the relationship that I was like… Do you see how slow I’m talking as I’m choosing my words very carefully to say everything correctly? Once it was public that we were together, I was much more like, no, I don’t care. Yeah, well, I don’t know. I feel confident enough in this that I don’t mind sharing it.

Grace: Well, just for the record, Drew, you’re very cute together.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: It’s true.

Grace: You’re extremely cute together.

Drew: Something that I do like about her is that I don’t think she necessarily wants me to write about our relationship, but if we take a hot picture together, she’s like, “Post it.” I’m like, “Great.” I do really admire the idea of being “I’m private unless I can be hot on the internet,” and I really respect that.

Christina: That’s honestly a motto that I would like to carry going forward through my life. I’m private, but if I look good, maybe all bets are off on that because I think that’s a very important way to be in our Instagram focused world. Drew, you did an incredible soft launch of Elise.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: It was really thoughtful and timed out, and I was like, “Oh, I’m seeing some just slow Instagram stories happening.” It’s all very subtle.

Drew: Getting some hands. It might be like, “Oh, these people are becoming good friends.” Yeah, I had one friend of mine was like, “This other friend of mine asked me if you two were together,” and I was like, “That’s exactly what I want. I want people gossiping about me.” See, but that’s part of the problem is I think part of the reason why I don’t… I like the idea of people gossiping about me.

Christina: Ah, yes. Well…

Grace: Yeah. See, that’s not something that Danny and I quite handled because we’d been sort of BFFs for about two and a half years before we started dating, and in fact, we had made plans to go into couples counseling before we started dating each other.

Christina: That is the gayest thing I have ever heard.

Grace: Yeah. We’d already had conversations about how to move our relationship forward before we were even dating. Then we started dating, and suddenly, we were just constantly posting about it and it was… I remember this one Instagram picture in particular of me wearing this magenta Sophie Dore wrap dress and Danny holding a baby and just looking really cool at the baby, and we were in a hotel room in San Francisco, and I was just thinking like, “This is my life now.” I’m wearing these fashionable dresses and looking glamorous with this incredibly handsome man who is now my boyfriend rather than just my sort of celebrity best friend.

Christina: That’s really beautiful.

Drew: Okay, but you said that Danny’s more private than you. In what ways does that manifest and how do you deal with that?

Christina: Gorgeous.

Grace: Yeah. Danny does not generally write about his own sex life. Before we got… He has his own history with sex, which is very different to my history with sex, and the way in which he experiences sex before and after transition has been, again, kind of different to me. I don’t want to speak too much about his experiences because he has written about them occasionally and everyone should buy his book and read his book, Something That May Shock and Discredit You, because I think it’s amazing. And he does talk about embodiment and intimacy in really tender and subtle ways, but there’s nothing tender or subtle about the way that I write about embodiment. I tend to be very just kind of full page, close-up kind of imagery, and I’m really interested in creating extremely vivid experiences of embodiment in writing. That’s just always been the way that I’ve written.

It’s been interesting how Danny and I have, I think, learned a little bit more how to write like each other over the last few years. He’s written a little bit more about sex and embodiment, and I’ve written a little bit more about not exactly religion but questions relating to spirituality. Danny and I, neither of us are religious, but we both have these weird spiritual attachments that become part of our lives in different moments and something we’ve both written about. I think he’s also— one of the things that’s always attracted me to Danny, is I just love the way he writes about literature. I think he’s an incredible writer about literature. That’s what I do for a living. My day job is I teach 19th Century British Literature.

Before I met Danny, I had this experience where a bunch of the grad students I was working with would say that they thought that The Toast, which was Danny’s website, just said everything that they wanted to say. I was like, “Why the fuck are we doing the rest of this stuff? Why are we doing all this rigorous academic training if what you really care about is Texts from Jane Eyre. That’s always been part of the complexity of our relationship too, but the fact is I just admire the ways in which Danny makes writing make sense. That’s been part of the way that I’ve learned from him as well. You asked me how he’s private and I guess I’m just sort of trying to dodge the question because the basic rule is in my book, I talk quite explicitly about a bunch of times that we’ve had sex, and I don’t think Danny has ever written a sex scene in his life.

Christina: That tracks.

Drew: So, it’s sort of like Danny won’t necessarily engage in that way, but you have free rein to engage with it however you want to?

Grace: Yeah. I don’t think it would occur to Danny to ask me not to say things or to write particular things out. I think we’re both fairly committed to each other’s capacity to write however we want to write. I think we both like each other’s writing enough that we’re not super worried about it, but there have definitely been moments, especially with the memoir where I was a little concerned that he might feel kind of embarrassed by certain aspects of that, and it didn’t really occur to me that would be the case until after it was already in press. I was like, “How do you feel about all of this?”, and he was like, “Oh, no, I feel great about it. I think it’s great,” but it’s something that I had questions about for a little while.

Christina: I do think that makes sense. In having the great privilege and honor of knowing both of you, I do think of Danny as a person who’s like, “Oh, I’ll talk about that when I’m ready to talk about that,” and for you, a lot of your processing is, “I’m going to process this out loud with people and I would ideally like it to be as visceral and gut punching as it can be so I can get to how I feel about it at the end,” which is a fascinating process and one that is terrifying to me to think about, but I love reading you do it because it does feel very freeing in a way.

Grace: I’m so relieved to hear that, but yeah, no, I guess I’m just not very good at reserve. I guess it’s partly a rebellion against certain aspects of my upbringing, but I do try to punch hard first and develop more subtle relationships after.

Christina: Yeah. I think, as a guest of your wedding, a woman who walked on the aisle to “Primadonna Girl” might not be the best at reserve.

Grace: Yeah. That’s true.

Christina: Not a shocking excitement. I don’t think.

Grace: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t really think about the idea that people would be that interested in me dating people, but now that we have this podcast where I have proudly and loudly been like, “I don’t date, I do not do that,” I do think if I ever do get in a relationship again, it will actually have to be a conversation of like… People might be a little more interested in this than I am, or maybe even whoever I’m dating is, and it might have to be something we discuss in a way that is like, “Ooh.” Also, you hate to overexpect how much people care about you online. That’s a dark… How famous are you?

Drew: I think you’re underestimating the reach of Autostraddle.

Christina: That’s true.

Drew: I don’t have 10,000 followers on Twitter or Instagram, and I still, especially in Toronto for some reason, I’m just recognized a pretty good amount. I think Autostraddle has a really tight knit community and I think that’s really special. I think just by nature of writing for Autostraddle, people would be invested in who you’re dating. Also, you’re probably going to date someone who’s older and successful because you’re attracted to that, so unless they work in finance or something, which is boring, they’re probably going to have fame of their own.

Christina: That’s true.

Drew: I see this in your future of you having some sort of dual public relationship.

Christina: Well, I guess I should just start drafting the press release.

Grace: You’re a power lesbian in training.

Christina: Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

Drew: I am always having to navigate this thing where gaymous is not famous and so people have asked to take pictures with Elise and I at the same time and as a couple, and then like, “I love both of your work,” and also the subtext of that is also sometimes like, “I love your relationship,” which is a weird amount of pressure. I think I definitely understand like— I think I’m, separate from her, getting more boundaries in certain ways. I think with my work, I think I still feel more of a freedom, but even that, it would have to be very pointed. I think there are things that I would write in a book that I wouldn’t write in an essay, and there are things that I would write in an essay that I wouldn’t say on a podcast, and there are things that I would say on a podcast that I wouldn’t post on Instagram. I think there’s this sort of balance between art, which is in some ways, the thing that I prioritize above all else. I mean, not above all else, that’s not true, but it’s up there. It’s up there.

Christina: It’s a tie up there, I’d say.

Drew: It’s not above like—

Grace: Transfeminine Chatterton energy here.

Drew: It’s not above my deep political values and core beliefs, and there are people including my partner who I care about to an extent that… I wouldn’t say that I care about any individuals in my life more than the concept of art, but definitely like no one essay or one something… Well, that’s maybe not… No one’s asking me to pick, but I just am saying that I, of course, care more about my partner than any one essay that I could write.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: It’s not really that challenging as far as being like, “Oh, I think I want to keep this private or she wants to keep it private.” I don’t know. I haven’t found it to be actually that challenging even if I’m talking slower on this episode than before. I think being forced to learn to be more thoughtful about what I put out into the world has been positive for me in general. I think I’m still learning that lesson. I think I’ve had some essays recently that after they’ve gone out, I’ve been a little bit like, “I don’t know if I should have done that.”

Grace: I love those essays. I think I know which ones you’re talking about. I think they’re beautiful. I love the way you write about sex.

Drew: Thank you. I don’t have an issue with writing graphically about sex and about my sex life. It’s more when I’m walking that line of telling other people’s stories, that’s what I feel. If I could write graphic essays about masturbation, I would do it any day. That’s not something that feels… It’s not that it doesn’t feel personal to me, but it just doesn’t feel…

Grace: You might as well just masturbate.

Drew: That’s true. That’s a really good point.

Christina: Well, that’s a huge point.

Drew: Then there are more essays and then it’s a real cycle there.

Christina: Yeah. I was actually thinking about that. The difference in writing an essay that is super personal versus Grace’s experience of writing a memoir. By definition, a memoir is really personal, and I imagine there are things that you put in that memoir that you would like if someone asks you to write for an outlet, you would be like, “No, that would be a waste of this space and I don’t really need to say this thing in this space,” but having what I can only imagine feels like the freedom to have a full memoir to say whatever you want and contextualize it very specifically to your life probably makes that a little easier.

Grace: I think that’s true. Yeah. I hadn’t quite thought of it in these terms, but I think it is true that if someone’s made the investment to hold a whole book in their hands that is a story of me and things about my life and thoughts, I think they’re entitled to descriptions of my genitals if they want them. Whereas, I’m not necessarily going to include that in a random essay about Matthew Arnold or whatever, although, you know.

Drew: Who knows?

Grace: Why not, I suppose.

Christina: Never say never, Grace. Never say never.

Grace: Never say never.

Christina: Certainly not with you.

Grace: Yeah, no, I think that’s true.

Drew: Yeah. If any book publishers are listeners of our podcast and want graphic details about my sex life with my partner, if you get me to write a book, I think she’d be okay with it. That’s real motivation. Though… because even making that joke scares me because there are people who are just so fucking weird about gaymous people, and I think it’s because we’re not famous so we feel more attainable and there’s just this weird… Look, I’m not encouraging all of you to stop listening to this podcast and stop liking our stuff and stop complimenting us and et cetera, et cetera. I mean, that’s the thing, right?

We want it, we’re here, we’re doing it, we clearly want some of it, and what that line is it’s a little like dating. I want people to flirt with me and then, oh, the wrong person flirted with me or, oh, they flirted and they misread the situation and did in a way that I felt was weird, and it’s fine as long as you don’t get stalkery about it. It’s fine. There are worse things than being a little bit weird on the internet, but it is that thing where I want the attention and I also don’t want the attention, and I want it in certain ways, and only I know in the moment what kind of ways.

Christina: Right. Exactly. There are those days where you get extremely randos in your DMs or mentions who are just speaking to you in an incredibly familiar tone, and you’re like… Some days, I’m like, “Whatever,” and some days I’m like, “Who the hell are you to think that you can speak to me in this manner?” and there really is no rhyme or reason to it. It is just how do I feel that day when I woke up and when a stranger decided to speak to me crazy? Who can say?

Grace: This is another thing about the whole gaymous thing, which I think is kind of weird in the way it specifically hits trans women, and maybe it’s specific to trans women of my age and older, but it’s a way in which I feel old when I’m recognized. It’s like people will talk to me in a sort of veneration. They’ll talk to me as though I was at Stonewall, and that I threw the first brick and I was hanging out with Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera myself. And they’ll just say, “It’s so good to have you here. Thank you so much.” Danny and I walked into a fucking bookstore in Provincetown last year, and before anything else happened, the woman behind the desk looked at me and said, “You are welcome.” I was like, “Oh my God.”

Christina: Oh my God.

Drew: Okay. I don’t want you to think that I’m now calling you old, but I want to say that I’m 28 and I get that.

Grace: Oh my God. Yeah.

Drew: I mean, there’s something sort of endearing about it in the sense that I remember when I was first coming out, if someone had been… I mean, I’ve been out for a little over five years and that’s a good chunk of time when you’re first coming out. It feels so impossible to ever make it to that point, and so if you see someone who’s been out for over five years and is like writing openly about their experiences, and is in a relationship, and seems confident and happy and whatever, and all the things that I am and also am not because Instagram and the internet has its limits, but I think there is something that feels really inspiring about that. I, in some ways, welcome it, but it does make me laugh. It does make me feel sometimes like, “Am I an elder? When did I go from being like…”

I really feel like I went from being someone who all of my experiences were guided by being a baby trans to being an elder. There wasn’t an in between. All of a sudden. I did some emotional learning, I made some mistakes, was out for a little bit longer, and all of a sudden, snap, it happened. But I also do feel even so, I think, about people who have been out for 10 years or for 20 years and that there are so many different layers to that.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: How long have you been out for?

Grace: Not even five years, I think. In terms of out online, probably just four and a half, we’ll say. In terms of in my more kind of offline life, a little bit longer than that, but even that was complicated because even before, I had a sort of public online life, I had a public work life because I was already a professor and so then there were all kinds of questions about like, “Why is Professor Lavery showing up wearing nail polish? Is that a thing?” and this kind of thing, but then when I did come out at work, the very next week was the graduate student recruitment week, and I had this one student come to my office and just asked me what it was like being trans in the Berkeley English Department when I’d literally been trans in the Berkeley English Department for five days, and I was just like, “I have no idea.”

Christina: It’s been quite a week.

Grace: Yeah. I feel vaguely insane, but I don’t think that’s…

Christina: I mean, first of all, I’m honored to be on a podcast with two trans elders. I think this is really a gorgeous experience. I do not take this kind of gift for granted so thank you both of you, but I do think for Drew and I, a lot of our work is online, our work is being public, but I do think there is probably for a lot of our listeners having that experience of being perhaps not a professor at Berkeley, but having a work life that is totally separate from whatever online public personas we may or may not have. I imagine that is also complicated to have a relationship be it public or even if it’s just something that’s a little harder to navigate in a corporate space or a… I don’t know. Higher ed was kind of, for me at least as a staff member of higher ed, was just like, “What are we doing here? The gay grad students are going to find me,” and they always did, but I wonder if for you, Grace, that also is part of dealing with your public relationship and managing that.

Grace: I think it is. I think the question of how to be a professor in a way that is meaningful, how to be an academic in a way that is meaningful without disappearing, you think, which is so… I mean, the question of visibility is a really complicated one and there’s a lot of critiques of visibility politics within trans community especially within academic trans community, and I really get that, and at the same time, I know that the systems, that govern higher education, are not really set up to make transition possible, and so if you wish to contest that visibility is a necessary dimension. For example, when I did come out at work in 2018, I remember I think maybe the following day, I ended up being sent by my department manager, who was wonderful and was always wonderful, to meet with a guy named Billy Curtis, who’s at the time, the director of gender equity. I just was a month or two on hormones in a wig looking terrified and I was just like, “Hi, I’m transitioning. This is a very odd moment for me. I thought I should just come and say hi.”

Billy then just looked at me and went, “Oh, we’ve been waiting for you,” and he’s just this extraordinary and wonderful person. He is someone who’s been at Berkeley since the ’80s and has been involved in gay liberation, queer liberation politics since then, has been grand marshal of San Francisco Pride, he’s Barbadian immigrant, and he’s been in California for ages. He’s incredible. He is someone that I really, really admire. It was just this sense that like, “Oh, wait, he’s been waiting for a trans woman tenure track scholar to get some of this stuff done that he needs to get done,” because he’s been finding that such a person could be helpful to him so then I was like, “Oh, okay, well then, let’s get some stuff done,” so then we did.

Then I wrote a bunch of letters saying, “We need to change these online infrastructure systems or we need to change this policy,” and whatever. I didn’t know what the fuck I was doing. I mostly was taking direction from people who’d been part of these struggles for a lot longer and I was really grateful to them, but yeah, that sense that my visibility actually made a difference to the kinds of reforms and political changes that I was most interested in advancing. There’s this other trans woman academic at Berkeley whose name I can never fucking remember who I met one time who has nothing in common with me. She’s just a professor who has a life of a professor and isn’t online, isn’t married to the greatest writer of her generation or whatever. I always feel like this is so odd. We sometimes find ourselves in the same room and we just have nothing to talk about at all. I have no idea what her life is like.

Christina: That is so fascinating.

Grace: Yeah. The difference is partly this whole other thing, which is this public world that I’m half part of and have conflicted feelings about, but at the same time, it seems like it could be useful politically, and also, I sometimes realize like, “Oh, shit. My students have read descriptions of me having sex. That’s really weird,” and I feel really weird about that, but at the same time, the alternative is not to write about sex and it seems to me that’s worse, so yeah.

Drew: Do you feel an added pressure because of narratives around trans desirability and trans loneliness that because you’re in a public relationship and that you’re in a T4T relationship, that people sort of, I don’t know, want perfection?Or really look to you as inspiring in some ways that you have this public love and how you then portray your relationship? Is there an added pressure because of that?

Grace: I wonder. This is the dark side of that. This is where I’m immediately drawn by that. I’m also, in addition to being whatever kind of gaymous I am, I’m also a particular target for a bunch of really hateful people who just can’t stand trans people at all, can’t stand queer people at all. These people have a very highly developed theory about my relationship with Danny, which is that I have abducted him and cut off ties between him and his family and other people that care about him, and he is in this sort of brow-beaten, minoritized, and bullied position. That’s… When I feel pressure, I just feel really frustrated about that and I never know what to do with it because the obvious answer would be like, “Listen, my husband is more famous than me. My husband makes more money than me. He actually has more friends than I do, and whatever jealousies I feel around that, we can talk about them and it’s fine,” but it’s also, I do feel this kind of pressure to fight that in some way.

Danny and I have had complicated conversations about this because I’d be like, “Danny, why don’t you just tell people that this isn’t true?”, and he’s like, “If I say that, it will sound like you’ve told me to say that.” I’m like, “Yeah, I know. I know that’s true and I don’t know what to do with it.” I think we’ve both found a degree of frustration about that, and the answer is eventually being I’ve just really blocked off a lot of possible ways to get to me that I would see things.

It’s so odd to me that people would frame questions of transition around loneliness and that kind of undesirability because, for me at least, the trans people I know are all incredibly hot and incredibly desirable. It seems bizarre to me that anyone would think trans people have difficulty dating. Come to Brooklyn and we can go to a few bars.

At the same time, I know this is something that does really circulate because before I started to transition, I was so scared of transition, and one of the reasons why was because I was enjoying dating a lot of people, and I thought if I transition, I’m just not going to be able to do that and no one’s going to want to date me again. Eventually, I decided I was going to transition anyway even though I would therefore become unfuckable and no one would ever want to spend time with me. Then that turned out very quickly not to be true, so it was genuinely surprising to me.

The question is like, “Why or how has this image come up?” I guess if my relationship with Danny had some role in capacity to repudiate that notion of trans unfuckableness, I would be delighted because it’s really just straight up not true. It’s like one of those things where people are like, “If trans lesbians are lesbians, why don’t they date each other?” Literally every trans woman I know is either been dating another trans woman for a time or wants to date a trans woman or something like that.

Christina: Yeah. That is fascinating though to have that kind of immediate switch between like, “I do not think I will be desired,” to “Now, I am seen as predator.”

Grace: Yeah.

Christina: That’s a lot to have to balance in one gorgeous little brain that you’ve got going over there.

Grace: It just never occurred to me that would be part of the way that anyone would see this especially since, and this is another thing that is just a big part of our relationship, I admired his choices so fucking much. I think that there is often in a relationship, and I’ve had this in past relationships too, a question of fundamentally, do we share ethical commitments? Would we act the same way when the chips are down? When someone… People sometimes ask me like, “What’s your favorite thing about Danny?”, and sorry, I’m just like sucking my husband’s dick on podcast, and that’s just how it is.

Christina: Just slobbing on the knob right here on air.

Grace: Yeah. One of my favorite stories about Danny was his parents used to take him and his two siblings on little trips to the pier in the Bay Area and in Los Angeles, and when Danny was three or four, I think on the Santa Monica Pier, they’re walking around and each of the kids was given 10 bucks and they say, “You can go and do whatever you want with this, and just come back and tell us what it was.” The other kids go off and do something, but Danny’s move is he’d go and get the $10 note broken down into 10 one dollar notes, and go and give them to 10 different people that he’s seen that were just walking around, like homeless people.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: That tracks so well with Danny’s incredibly huge heart. Yeah, that is a person who really, when the shit hits the fan, their politics go with it. Yeah, that’s a person who lives what they say and what they mean.

Grace: Yeah. There’s a kind of real instinctive commitment to something like communism there that is not acquired, that is actually really part of the way that Danny thinks about value and the way in which he thinks about resources that he can share with other people, and I learned so much from it. I think I’m instinctively a much more selfish person than Danny, and I probably have rolled that tenner into a little bundle and found some cocaine, but no, I continue to learn so much from that.

Christina: Well, maybe that’s the lesson. Maybe we should all just be dating Danny and learning how to be selfless and good people.

Grace: We haven’t really talked about the whole poly thing, but if you want to date Danny, I recommend it. We have a lot of fun.

Christina: Do we have any other thoughts before we hit Crush Corner? Are we feeling like we know what a public relationship is? Do we know how to navigate them? Do we do our best and say, “Well, that’s what all I can do”?

Drew: The only thing I would add is I think a lot of the things we’ve been talking about we’ve been talking about them in the context of being gaymous, and Christina, you brought this up as far as being a professor, but I do think that all of these things come up for everyone when it comes to dealing with social media. Even if you’re not going to have people who you don’t personally know responding to how you post and what you do, you’re going to have maybe family or friends or someone you went to high school with, or all these other things. I do think with the way that the internet functions now, most people are some sort of famous in the sense that even if you’re just famous with your high school graduating class and it is a weird dynamic, and I think we’re all figuring that out for ourselves. I think it just depends on the individual relationship and individual people and comfort levels, and yeah.

Christina: Cool. Yeah. I feel good. I feel like we crushed it as ever.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Speaking of crushes, gorgeous segues. She’s a professional. Let’s hit Crush Corner.

Drew: Amazing.

Christina: I will go first. My crush is not a person, not even pop culture. My crush is a concept. By a concept, I do mean a physical thing that you can see. It’s the ocean. My crush is the ocean. I really love her. I spent a long time in her in the last two weeks. Some of those days were very cold. Some of those days, she was not particularly welcoming, and I said, “Baby, I understand that. Me too. I also am sometimes cold and not particularly welcoming to people,” and I just felt really held and seen, and I love to be salty and damp in the ocean.

Drew: Wow. All your life you’ve been looking for an older woman and it was the ocean all along.

Christina: She was the only one big enough for me. Drew, who is your crush?

Drew: Okay. There’s a little story attached to this crush.

Christina: What? No way.

Drew: Yeah. My crush this week is ‎Moira Shearer, who is a ballet dancer who’s the lead of the movie, The Red Shoes. She’s also in The Tales of Hoffman and was a great ballerina. She’s my crush this week because last night, I took my first ballet class. I’ve wanted to since I was like before I can… When I was three, I would like to watch my sister’s ballet classes. I was fascinated, but that wasn’t something that was available to me and I’ve always wanted to, and nothing to me felt more mortifying than being the sad trans woman who couldn’t learn ballet, who went to a beginner ballet class, and sucked. Because I’m not flexible. None of the skills that you need to have to be a ballerina, I have. I have none of them, but I went last night and it was so much fun. It was mortifying for sure and humbling in a lot of ways, but I had such a great time and I’m going to go back. It’s weekly so I’m going to go back next week and make it a practice.

A lot of it is I loved watching my sister’s ballet classes, but when I saw The Red Shoes, when I was, I don’t know how old I was, somewhere in the 12, 13-ish range, that movie changed my life. There was something about the way that it expressed passion and art making and commitment, and also how that intersects with still being someone who feels very deeply towards romantic partners and love. She’s incredible in it. She’s an incredible dancer and the way that her body moves is incredible. I was thinking about her and that movie all night.

Christina: Drew, I have to ask this before we ask Grace who her crush is. Your ballet teacher, was she hot or? What was going on there?

Drew: Less hot and more like Miss Frizzle energy because she teaches the beginner… There’s beginner and there’s beginner plus. Sorry, I’m not saying Miss Frizzle isn’t hot. You can be kooky and hot, obviously. That’s one of the best types of hot, but she was more like… Towards the end of the class, she made a joke about being old and then was like, “I’m almost 40,” and in my head, I was like, “This person’s under 40??” and not because of an appearance thing, but just because she talked to us the way she probably talks to her five-year-old students and so I had this mental image of her being so much older than me, and then I was like, “Oh, you’re younger than a lot of my friends.”

It wasn’t really a sexual thing, but I do know that the beginner plus teacher is hot because when I was looking at classes… You need at least a year of experience to go to beginner plus, so if I were to do weekly ballet in Toronto for the rest of the summer, go back to LA, continue that practice, maybe make it twice a week, and then if I came back to Toronto next year, I can maybe take the beginner plus class with the hot teacher. If all of that happens, I will let you know.

Christina: Well, listeners, hang on for season three of Wait, Is This A Date? featuring the beginner plus hot ballet teacher. Grace, whomst is your crush of the week?

Grace: Well, Christina, I just got to give a big shout out to this book, Stannary Law: A History of the Mining Law of Cornwall and Devon by Robert R. Pennington, who’s a legal historian. His book was published in 1974, and it’s a really great comprehensive history of the specifics of the laws governing the Cornish and Devon shore tin mining industries that had their own legal system quite apart from the rest of the country. I am currently writing a novel about the history of tin mining in the Southwest of England and its relation to independence movements. Robert R. Pennington, again, is my guy and I heartily recommend this for anyone who’s just looking for a light read about the history of Cornish tin mining.

Drew: Wow. Grace, can I just say that I adore you?

Christina: I am just blown away by just the concept of bringing your full self to this space and saying, “Yes, we are going Cornish tin mining.” Your mind, Grace. Thank you so much for joining us.

Grace: Thank you.

Christina: Please tell our listeners where they can find you if you would like them to do so. If you don’t want them to, say boo.

Grace: No, find me. Well, online, you can find me on Instagram @grace.lavery.pangolin. I also have my memoir, Please Miss: A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Penis, which is out now with Seal in the US and Daunt in the UK.

Drew: You should get it.

Christina: Everybody get the book. It’s great.

Grace: Thank you.

Christina: I think we did it.

Grace: Yes.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein, our logo is by Mania Dar, and this podcast was produced, edited, and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter @c_gracet and on Instagram @christina_gracet, and you can find Autostraddle, of course, @autostraddle.

Drew: You can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com. The reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are, at this very moment, horridly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this. On the case here, we don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): Elise and I are gay famous, not famous famous is we don’t have a couple name. We don’t even have a couple name that could work. I think the best bet you have is combining our last names like Grauman. That’s not a good couple name. Though it would be spelled like the theater in Los Angeles and you know how I love movies.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 204: Partner’s Pets

Whether you’re a dog gay, a cat gay, a snake gay, a ferret gay, or a will I ever find a lesbian who doesn’t have a pet gay, animals likely play a role in your dating life. Personally, there’s no better question someone can ask me before a first date than: Can I bring my dog?

But we know everyone doesn’t share this desire and so we had actor, writer, friend of mine, and friend of Autostraddle’s Brittani Nichols on to talk about her girlfriend’s dog and her girlfriend’s snake. We get into our histories with pets, our boundaries with partner’s pets, and B’s assertion that animals, like people, have their own personalities and should be taken on a case-by-case basis. Christina also bravely says that people should not kill their pets and I bravely say that snakes are maybe a bit sexy thanks to a certain pop star.

And before that we play another game connected to my Letterboxd! Christina challenges me to “Fix That Movie” — pronounced Fix! That! Movie! — where I have to explain how I’d fix movies I gave two or two and a half star ratings on Letterboxd. Do you like pets? Do you like movies? Well, what are you waiting for! Give us a listen!

SHOW NOTES

+ Once again, here is my Letterboxd.

+ The movies I “fixed” were Nine (2009), Catwoman (2004), The Lake House (2006), Being the Ricardos (2021), The Last Five Years (2014), The Eyes of Tammy Faye (2021)

+ B’s dog — excuse me — B’s girlfriend’s dog Shiloh:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYLUY4kLTvq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

+ The Kate Hudson movie I keep referencing is Raising Helen (2004).

+ A moment.

+ B’s crush of the week was the show Resident Alien.

+ Speaking of Cluny Brown, if I ever got two dogs at once I’d name them Cluny Brown and Miss Betty Cream but if I get one I’m sticking with Princess Cyd. Imagine a pit bull mix named Princess Cyd!

+ Florence Welch’s new album:

+ Watch Suicide Kale (2016) written and starring B and directed by Carly Usdin.

+ If you want more B, read this interview she did with Shelli about Abbott Elementary.

EPISODE

Brittani: And then now my current girlfriend has a dog and a snake.

Drew: Yes.

Brittani: Yeah. A snake.

Christina: Got to hear more about this. Got to talk about the snake.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the most important question of our times: Wait, is this a date?

Drew: It’s a question people are asking, I hear.

Christina: Yeah. The people are simply clamoring for an answer and we try to get closer and closer to having an answer every time we podcast together, I think.

Drew: I think so too.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I’m Drew Gregory. I’m a filmmaker and a writer for Autostraddle. I’m a queer woman, I’m a trans woman, and I’m excited to be here today.

Christina: That’s so thrilling. I’m Christina Tucker. I am also a writer at Autostraddle. I’m a podcaster, a writer of things other places. And I am also a queer woman. I’m black. I have new braids and I’m really loving, throwing them around a very dramatic woman that’s what I’m doing now. I’m identifying as a dramatic woman these days.

Drew: I think you should.

Christina: Which is really working for me.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: As usual, we have a little game to play.

Drew: I’m so excited.

Christina: This game that I have made for Drew is called Fix That Movie. These are movies that Drew has rated two to two and a half stars on Letterboxd. I am going to give Drew 30 seconds because Drew—

Drew: Oh God.

Christina: —as we know and love her, tends to get a little long-winded. So Drew’s going to have 30 seconds to pitch a fix for these films that she has rated exactly two and a half to two stars.

Drew: Great.

Christina: So that’s the game. I’m going to start a timer. And then I’m going to give you your first movie. Are you ready to play Fix That Movie?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: And I have to say it like that every time.

Drew: Of course.

Christina: Okay. Your first film is the film, Nine. Start.

Drew: All the elements are there. So it’s actually, this is a tricky one, because it just should be better. I think maybe the musical Nine isn’t very good. So maybe write new songs?

Christina: Okay.

Drew: And cast a few people who are Broadway performers, not just movie stars, as much as I love all the movie stars in that cast.

Christina: And with 10 seconds to spare, you have fixed the movie Nine. Gorgeous.

Drew: Amazing.

Christina: Our next film, Catwoman from 2004. Go.

Drew: I mean, a new script? But also I obviously love Halle Berry as Catwoman. I think that’s a two and a half star on Letterboxd. I did think about making it higher. I enjoyed myself. I actually rewatched it recently, like five years ago. But yeah, anyways I would say probably a page one rewrite.

Christina: A page one rewrite. Gorgeous. Four seconds to spare. All right. Your next film is, The Lake House.

Drew: Oh, did I give it two and a half stars? That’s pretty brutal.

Christina: You gave it two and a half stars.

Drew: I don’t know. I mean, that feels like a movie where you want it to be two and a half stars. If you went to go see The Lake House with the premise that it has with Sandra Bullock and Keanu Reeves. You know what? This is going to be a— recast Sandra Bullock.

Christina: Oh, hot takes. I love it.

Drew: I don’t know who, because she does have good chemistry with Keanu, but I think there’s someone better for that part.

Christina: A recast. All right. All right. That’s brave and gorgeous. Okay. We’re going to get into some fun ones now. These are some newer films that I think provide a bit more of a challenge.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Your next film, Being the Ricardos.

Drew: Oh, God. I don’t know. Aaron Sorkin wrote it and directed it. This is tricky. Because I would say, you know what, I’m actually not going to say a new screenwriter because I think Aaron Sorkin is a fine screenwriter when he has a director who will bully him. That’s why The Social Network works. So unfortunately a male director who Aaron Sorkin would listen to and be bullied by. And I’m sorry, but no, Nicole Kidman love of my life. You cannot, that’s not your role. And Javier Bardem, not love of my life. Also not your role. So recast the two leads. Supporting cast is excellent. And get a new director.

Christina: And you only went six seconds over on that. And I think that’s gorgeous.

Drew: I know I can live with that.

Christina: I also think, just as a rule, someone to bully Aaron Sorkin is a great idea. Just for anything that he’s ever involved in. Beautiful. We have two more. Your next one, the film, The Last Five Years.

Drew: Oh God.

Christina: Fix! That! Movie!

Drew: Okay. You have to have a book, you have to write a book for it. It doesn’t work as a musical without a script. And then also Anna Kendrick does not work in that role because Cathy needs to have less onscreen power than the other guy, fucking Jamie. And so having a celebrity be Cathy and a not as famous person be Jamie does not work. But mainly it needs a book.

Christina: It needs a book. I think you’re right. And I think that is going to be brilliant. Your last film, this was a really chaos choice for me, but, The Eyes of Tammy Faye.

Drew: Okay. I mean, first of all, no fat suit. That’s a very easy way to make me bump it up a half star and be a little bit more generous towards it. I don’t know if I want to fix that movie like it’s just— honestly if you take out the fat suit, it can still be that cast. Jessica Chastain could still do that part looking like Jessica Chastain. And then I give it a three. I give it three stars. I don’t think that movie needs to be anything more. But I would say if you want to make a Tammy Faye movie that would be better than that, you would have to focus like most biopic type things on a very specific time in life. And that, I think, always makes for a better biopic.

Christina: I think that’s beautiful. And I think Drew, today you have fixed six movies.

Drew: That’s really beautiful.

Christina: Of a real wide breadth and depth of films and genres. And I think that’s really thrilling.

Drew: Yeah. There’s also such a big difference— Rating movies out of five stars, it’s tricky. And again, The Lake House being a… I think I was high for it. I had a great time watching The Lake House high.

Christina: Well, that was the other thing is I had to, as I was going through them, I was like okay, which ones do I know that Drew watched high? And like so I can’t pick Serenity.

Drew: Oh, Serenity is so bad. Being the Ricardos was such a much less pleasant experience than The Lake House. So don’t watch Being the Ricardos. Maybe watch The Lake House if you have enough drugs. That’s my final words.

Christina: And this is Drew’s reviews movie corner now.

Drew: Our main topic today is Partners’ Pets. And we have a very special guest. Very special guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Brittani: Yes. Hello. My name is Brittani Nichols.

Christina: Hey.

Brittani: Do I say what I am?

Christina: You can say whatever you want.

Drew: Whatever that means to you.

Brittani: I am a television writer and actor. And Gemini.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Good to get the sign in. I do think we should request our guests to tell us their sign. I think that is something we should do.

Drew: They should. And as we record this, Gemini season has just ended and…

Christina: Just wrapped up.

Drew: It’s a bummer.

Christina: Unfortunately.

Drew: Yeah.

Brittani: Bummer, unfortunately. Yeah.

Christina: Yep. Here we are in Cancer season. Yay.

Drew: Brittani, first of all, I want to ask, what is your relationship to animals and to pets? Growing up as a kid, did you have pets? Do you like animals?

Brittani: As a child, did we have pets? We had fish for a period, but my little brothers would — one little brother Donnie — would put video tapes into the fish tank, which would kill the fish.

Christina: Now I have a couple of questions. Was this so they could watch the video? Was this so they could interact with the tape? Are we talking a full VHS? Because that’s big.

Brittani: Oh, yeah. It was a pretty— It wasn’t a super large tank. I would say it was three goldfish tanks, I would say of the stereotypical cartoon sized goldfish tank. No idea. I mean he was three.

Christina: Sure. So maybe he wasn’t also thinking super logically.

Brittani: Whenever he was not in eyesight, that tape was going in that tank.

Drew: I mean, it makes a good splash, I would imagine. So I get it.

Christina: See, I was imagining him lowering it down very dramatically and then creeping away.

Brittani: Yeah. It’s one of those images that is definitely burned into my memory from when I was a kid. We never had a dog. At times my mother would be dating someone who had a dog and that was fun. One of them I believe was eaten by a coyote we believe, because there was wilderness behind where we were staying.

Christina: Yeah. The wilderness will get you.

Brittani: Yeah, he would just let the dog go hang out. And then one day it just didn’t come back.

Christina: Yikes.

Drew: A bummer. Was it a small dog?

Brittani: Yeah. It wasn’t tiny. It was, I would say, a small, mid-sized dog named Timberland. Very cute.

Christina: That’s a great dog name. Wow.

Brittani: I think that’s about it.

Drew: What about you Christina?

Christina: There were animals around a lot. We had a dog when I was growing up that my father named Chakotay because he is a big Star Trek head.

Drew: I think there’s a word for Star Trek head.

Christina: Yeah. It’s Star Trek head, I said it. Like hello. He was not well-trained and he was pretty aggressive. So he was a bummer of a dog. And then we later had a dog named Maggie who was a very sweet German Shorthaired Pointer who was very dumb, and fell off our deck a lot, just accidentally. And I was like, babe, you got to work it out. But we were lackadaisical dog owners. They always showed up or someone needed a dog. And my mother couldn’t say no to re-homing said dog, but we were not passionate dog owners, I would not say. And my mother is addicted to finding outdoor cats who she feeds and then is surprised that they come back. Yeah. And they currently have two weird cats that my mother also could not say no to, because they were the last of the litter and their names are Shadowfax and Yoshi. And they’re very weird and scared of people.

Drew: That’s nice.

Christina: Just chill. Just chilling around the house. Not really passionate about our pets I’d say, at the Tucker household. What about you? I know your parents have dogs, Drew.

Drew: Yeah. Opposite. Very passionate about the dogs. I was always supposed to refer to our dogs as my siblings.

Christina: Okay.

Brittani: Oh, no.

Drew: Yeah. My mom is that kind of person. But I grew up loving dogs and we always had two. One would die — they were always a little off an age — one would die. We’d get a new one and then it would sort of… Like that. Yeah. Well we had to give away one of our dogs because she was biting people, but she loved me. So it was very hard because I was a kid and it was hard to… I remember a vet saying well, do you want your dog to bite one of your friends? It was pretty harsh. Because I think I was nine, but then we got—

Christina: Damn.

Drew: We got another dog and that dog was my love. And then my parents got two dogs that I don’t know as well, but my parents still are like, your brother. And I’m like, I don’t know about that. Maybe half brother or something at least, but—

Christina: My cousin really.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: But yeah, I love dogs and I’ve never had one of my own because they’re expensive and I move around a lot and I live in cities. But then Brittani, I feel like I know vaguely your history with dating people who have dogs and other animals, but I’ll let you tell that for yourself.

Brittani:
Well, I evaluate dogs and pretty much all animals on a case by case basis. So when people are like, are you a dog person or a cat person? I’m like, they have personalities. I got to see if we get along.

Christina: We got to do a vibe check.

Brittani: Exactly. So yeah. So I dated someone for a couple of years who did not have a dog while we were dating, but got a dog soon after. No, maybe a year after we dated or so. And I became very close to that dog. He’s named Bandit. Very cute. A real just anxious dog, but super chill. Then I dated someone who had two cats that I was deathly allergic to. I almost developed asthma. There’s an allergy induced asthma you can develop.

Christina: Yeah, you can. You can do that.

Brittani: And I was wheezing. I would wake up and I would be wheezing because it was so bad. And so that was one of a many tensions for the relationship was you need to vacuum your apartment so I don’t die.

Drew: Yeah.

Brittani: And then now, my current girlfriend has a dog and a snake.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Yeah. A snake. Got to hear more about this. Got to talk about the snake. What’s its vibe? What’s its name? Does it pass the vibe check?

Brittani: Yes.

Christina: Awesome.

Brittani: So I think most people have not interacted with snakes much. When I was in sixth grade, I went to a camp where one of the big events was that they would put a snake around your neck and you would get to take a picture. So it was not my first encounter with a snake. His name is Yari, he was a rescue. He got washed away during some hurricane in Florida. And he was mailed to her as a baby.

Christina: Oh.

Drew: Sure.

Brittani: And he eats live rats. So seeing that for the first time, I have to say — well, not rats, let’s say mice, they’re small — was a lot. It was a lot to watch. I do not enjoy it. I understand the circle of life. However, I would rather not witness that particular aspect of it. And he’s pretty chill. He’s never nipped or anything at me. He will slide into my shirt and just hang out where it’s warm and dark. I would like him to be out I think more than her. I’ll pressure her like he’s been in his tank for too long like give him a night on the town.

Christina: You got to see the sights.

Brittani: He has gotten lost in our previous apartment a few times because she would not keep an eye on him and he would just slither to a little place. And then she would proceed to freak out. And I would say he’s in the apartment. There’s nothing to freak out about. We will find him eventually. And then I would always eventually find him in one or two days.

Drew: When you first started dating Cerise, at what point did you find out that she had a snake?

Brittani: Very soon into it.

Drew: Like the first date?

Brittani: When did I find out? Before we were official, for sure. Because she brought him to Dyke Day.

Christina: Fascinating.

Brittani: And that was one of the first times I think we saw each other in person. It wasn’t a date. We were just like, oh we’re both at Dyke Day. And she had the snake around her neck.

Christina: Here you are with a snake. Yeah.

Brittani: Yeah. And it was doing very well with the ladies, I will say.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Was it like, she’s a 10, but she has a snake? Or was it like, she’s a 10 and she has a snake, so she’s a 12? Was it a positive? Was it a green flag or red flag or a yellow flag?

Brittani: It was a neutral. Yeah. I really didn’t feel anything about it because I just didn’t know enough about snakes to have any sort of feelings about it. And honestly, it’s more positive than a dog because you really don’t have to do much.

Drew: That’s true.

Christina: I think that’s true. I also do think that’s interesting, because I feel people do have very strong opinions about snakes. I feel many people are hard pass on a snake. I find them to be very charming and cute. I don’t love the idea of one just freeform vibing for one or two days in my home while I don’t know where it is. That would cause me a bit of stress, I think personally. But if I know where you’re located, if I can go look at you, you can hang out my arm. You can snake around, but I just need you to stay where you be living. I don’t need you to be just hanging out unpredictably. That scares me a little bit.

Drew: As someone who has helped take care of this specific snake when you were out of town, I think the only challenge was the feeding. That was the only thing that like— I think I’m one of those terrible omnivores who doesn’t want to see the animal before it’s killed and eaten. But I do eat meat and I know it’s not an admirable quality, but it is a quality that I possess. And just, it was the ride home from the pet store. Once it’s in the tank with the snake, then it becomes a thing where I’m like, oh, I’m witnessing the circle of life. Now there’s another animal that I can personify and be like, oh, well you’re just eating your meal and how fascinating. But when we were just in the car and it was in the little box from PetSmart, that was definitely the biggest challenge. But I definitely am on snake is a positive. And also I’m sure you were relieved that Cerise isn’t a cat person.

Christina: Well, yeah.

Brittani: Oh, yes. Yeah. I don’t foresee myself dating someone with a cat ever again, should this not work out.

Drew: How long ago was it that you dated the person with the cat?

Brittani: Four years, five years? Something like that.

Christina: I mean, I do think we have to discuss queers and pets generally, because I do think there is a certain type of queer person that has an energy about pets writ large that I find what’s the word, exhausting. And God bless. I’m not a monster. I’m not going to be out here saying kill your animals. I think that’s insane. But there is a person who I’m like, do you perhaps care more about this animal than hmm I’d say, any marginalized person? Because that is a little stressful to me. And I think it’s fair to say that a lot of these queers tend to be white. And I just, I have a little bit, there’s always a little bit of hesitation. It’s not necessarily a red flag, but it would be a, okay, what’s going on with you and this animal? What’s happening here? What’s this investment emotionally? Talk to me about it. That’s my piece. I’ve said it.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Backing away.

Drew: That’s fair. I associate that also with a kiss on the mouth, tongue kiss, animal person. And that’s also, I would count that as a red flag. I don’t mind if someone really loves their pet.

Christina: Yeah. I think it’s probably better to really love your pets than be like, eh, whatever.

Drew: I do identify as, I guess, a dog person and a cat person. I really like animals, even though I eat them, not dogs and cats generally, but I really do love animals and I’ve never dated anyone who has one. And that’s a bummer. Yeah. I mean, famously, famously in the life of me, not to anyone else, after Gaby Dunn and I went on our first date, one of the things that made them be a little bit like, I don’t know, was that I didn’t react strong enough to Beans. And they’ve told me that. Afterwards, Mal was like, how was the date? And they were like, it was good. She didn’t seem that enthusiastic about Beans. Which is wild because I was so… I remember being totally, but it was a first date. I wasn’t going to spend more time talking to Beans than Gaby, but I should have, I guess. And I don’t know. I do love an animal, but it does go people, animals to me.

Brittani: Sure.

Christina: Yes.

Brittani: I also, I don’t get that, because I feel if I’m coming into an animal’s space, I want to be respectful. I’m a guest in your home. I’m going to wait for you to come up to me.

Christina: Exactly.

Drew: Yes.

Brittani: I don’t want to seem thirsty.

Drew: Right, exactly. Yes. I’ve also found that animals tend to like you more when you give them a little space and create sort of a calm environment. And then if they want to be all over you, then they can. But yeah. I remember Gaby told me that during the pandemic, when I was living with them and Mal and I was extremely single at the time and was having like… So I very much was I’m sleeping in the shed. The couple who I live with is in the main house. And I was like is my entire life been shaped by not being enthusiastic enough about people I’ve dated’s pets? Is that why I’m single? But no, I stand by my muted, yet enthused reaction to people’s pets.

Christina: I just love the idea of you being like, if I had loved that dog more, would I perhaps be allowed into the main home? Would I not live in a shed?

Drew: They were both joking about that. And I was like, I don’t this joke. I like a world where the two of you are just in a relationship and I’m your friend. I don’t like this world where destiny could have gone in a different direction if I was just a little bit more cheerful. But also Bean sleeps in their bed. And I don’t know, does Shiloh sleep in bed with you guys?

Brittani: Oh, she sure does.

Drew: Do you like that? Does it bother you?

Christina: See, I am pretty negative on animals in the bed with me. I don’t care for that.

Brittani: I don’t really. It’s not worth it to me.

Christina: I think dogs are a little easier to handle sleeping with than cats. We have two cats. They are not allowed in the bedrooms at night. And I have left my bedroom door cracked. And one of them will find their way into my bed at night. And what happens is that I wake up terrified because I think that I am being attacked by some sort of possum or something. I don’t immediately think, oh, there’s a cat in my room. I think some animal, wild animal has gotten in here to kill me. That’s where I immediately go upon waking. So I just think close that door, close that door. Also, you think you would get more of the bed than me? I’m a person, come on. You’re an animal. Get away from me. Shoo. Shoo.

Drew: Growing up, I always did have my dog sleep in bed with me. So I’m not against it on principle. I think I would prefer if the dog would sleep at the end of the bed rather than between me and my partner.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: But I don’t know. I’m also as a pet parent — and also if I was ever a parent, parent — I am a little bit of yeah, I don’t know, I’m a little bit of a pushover maybe. I’m just like what am I going to do? You have so much love and you want to just be here with me. What am I going to do? Not take that? That’s seems so harsh.

Christina: Unfortunately I would simply say, you need me too much. That’s horrible. We can’t have that.

Drew: Yeah. That just checks out for us.

Christina: Yeah. It really does.

Brittani: Well, I know I would be the one that would have to train it out of Shiloh and I just have no interest in taking that on. And she likes to sleep in between my legs or right behind my knees, which is also just your mom is right there. Why must you sleep on my person?

Drew: At what point in your relationship did Shiloh start doing that? That’s a really sweet, embracing of you as second parent.

Brittani: Yeah. I mean, I think she just sees me as the alpha of the home.

Drew: I see.

Brittani: And is being subservient.

Drew: I see.

Christina: Hey, they’re a pack creature. They know which side their bread’s buttered on.

Brittani: I’m trying to work on her confidence so she could be a bit more stable and just trusting of the relationship.

Drew: For sure.

Christina: I will say of all of my friends who have adopted dogs, found dogs, I’m always like, how do you guys find the most neurotic, anxious—? Perhaps it is a game recognize game situation. And everyone is just meeting a dog on their level. And I think that’s really gorgeous, but I’m just like, what if one person I knew had a dog who was just chill? Here to hang, here to vibe, but no, everybody is like, she’s a little anxious. She needs this, this, this. What is this? What are we doing to dogs? Why are they so stressed out? You’re a dog.

Brittani: Shiloh does not come across as anxious. Shiloh comes across as very friendly and wants to be around everyone. But she does still have those sort of anxious tendencies of if you’re gone for too long or you come back, and she gets too excited, but she’s also like, you’re the boss, then she will pee a little bit. She does that sort of stuff.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: I was going to say that I can relate, but then you said the pee a little bit and that part I’m going to have to stop at. But I’m a Leo rising, Taurus moon, Capricorn sun, earth sign at my core, anxiety disorder at my core. But I like to give an extrovert—

Christina: Performance?

Drew: Aura out in the world. Yeah. It’s a performance. I appreciate that about Shiloh. I do love Shiloh. I was like, oh, if was around Shiloh, I’d let Shiloh sleep in bed. What are you going to do? Say no to Shiloh? Shiloh’s so cute.

Brittani: She also got Shiloh by accident.

Drew: Oh, how so?

Brittani: She went with a friend to a shelter because the friend was thinking about getting a cat. And she was like, I don’t like cats, I’m going to go hang out with the dogs. Shiloh had a cherry eye which required surgery. And it was 50 bucks or something, not that much, but no one was adopting her because they would see her and be like, oh, what the fuck is happening over there? And so my girlfriend was like oh, I’ll just pay for the surgery so that this dog can get adopted. And so she paid for the surgery and then a few days later they called her like, your dog’s ready. And she was like, I’m sorry, what are you talking about?

Christina: That was a charitable donation.

Brittani: And they were like, the dog whose surgery you paid for. And she was like, oh, okay. And she had just had a breakup I’m pretty sure. I think she had like… Something was happening where she was like, I’m going to just embrace this gift from above.

Christina: Something I have learned is, it’s never a good idea to go to a shelter because you will end up with an animal almost.

Drew: Or a great idea.

Christina: Sure. I mean, for me, the way my life is set up, I simply cannot—

Drew: Yeah. I know.

Christina: —fathom having to also be responsible. I’m responsible for me and my two adult children. I cannot be responsible for an animal at this time in my life, certainly not a dog. The cats are fine.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, sort of the way that I would love to have human children, what’s that Kate Hudson movie? I would love to just have them dropped on me like, oh, I have to do this responsibility. I can’t logically get a dog right now. It doesn’t make financial sense. It doesn’t make life sense, but I want one so bad. And the other day, Elise and I were at lunch and there was this pitbull mix tied up outside the restaurant and was whining like a human. It was so eerie and weird. And I was like if by the time we finish lunch, no one has come back for this dog, this is my dog. This weird dog that yells like a person is going to be my dog and I’m going to love them dearly. Three minutes later, their owner came out with takeout. So that dog is not my dog, but I would love to have responsibility dropped in my lap.

Christina: Yeah. And there is our difference. I would see that dog at a restaurant, I’d say, I hope your day gets better dog. And then I would simply move on with my day, and hope that it did the same. And be glad that its owner returned.

Drew: Christina, have you dated anyone who has a pet?

Christina: My gut is like, no, but I feel like that’s wrong, but no, I think it is true. I don’t think I have dated someone who has a pet.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t think I have either which is…

Christina: How is that possible?

Drew: Again, I’ve gone on dates with people who have their pets with them even, and I’ve not reacted properly, but I’ve never been in a long term relationship with someone who has a pet and that’s the real—

Brittani: Wow.

Drew: That’s a bummer.

Christina: B’s like, how have you done that?

Brittani: That’s the way to go.

Drew: I think I have the energy of someone who would be the one to bring the pet into the relationship.

Brittani: Right.

Drew: That’s how I’ll know I’ve made it. My girlfriend’s like, when I can buy a house, and I’m like, when I can buy a dog. And obviously it’s nicer to have a backyard for your dog. And if you have a house, maybe you have a backyard and those different things go great together. Basically I’m saying is I’d love to have a lot more money. But I want a dog so badly.

Christina: Well, that was going to be my other question was in your future relationship, does an animal figure in at some point?

Drew: Oh, yeah.

Christina: Because I feel like I can go either way. Like, sure, but not necessary.

Drew: No. That’s a real life landmark that I’m very committed to hitting. The problem is that I tend to like bigger dogs.

Christina: I love big dogs.

Drew: And that’s harder for life. And especially, I don’t know where I’m working ever. I don’t know where I’m living ever. It’s one thing to bring a Chihuahua with you to different cities or to set. It’s a different thing to bring, I love a pitbull mix. But not even mixed like a corgi, so they look like a little mini pitbull. I like a pitbull mixed with an Australian shepherd or something. I just love a weird little mutt dog that just is out there living life. Sometimes it’s a personality thing. Some smaller dogs have, like I feel this way about Shiloh. Shiloh has a personality. But I think sometimes smaller dogs feel more when you get a hamster. And a bigger dog often feels more like, oh, this is my pal. And I want a pal.

Christina: I like that you’re just looking for your YA fantasy, moment. You just want to be the hot girl who has her dog and they’re pals and they’re running around.

Drew: I also grew up with bigger dogs. So I always grew up with some sort of very suburban, a lab or a spaniel so. And spaniels are medium-sized. But yeah.

Christina: I like giant dogs because I like that they have the same energy as I do, which is, they simply would like to be lying down at all times and are like, eh, I don’t really need to go outside because that is also how I feel.

Drew: I think of bigger dogs as they need to run all the time. That’s also a reason why it would be harder to have a big dog. I mean, I guess it depends on the dog, but I I used to run half marathons with my spaniel.

Brittani: Oh, wow.

Christina: Yeah. Well those little medium dogs definitely need to take a run, but you get a Bernice, they’re trying to lie down. That dog is trying to lie the hell down.

Drew: Yeah. That’s fair. Brittani, when you’ve been in relationships with people who have dogs, how soon does the responsibility of taking care of the dog fall on you? Or do you embrace that responsibility?

Christina: As the pack leader, do you embrace that responsibility?

Brittani: Oh, I am still very clear about my boundaries as far as it comes to taking care of the dog. I am like, this is not my dog. This is your dog. You walk this dog, you feed this dog. When I do those things, I am being kind. And it is a favor.

Drew: Even with Shiloh still??

Brittani: Yeah.

Christina: Iconic.

Drew: Wow. I love it.

Brittani: When Cerise is gone, obviously I very much am very bothered if I ever think Shiloh is in any distress, so I wouldn’t be like, oh, she’s not going to be home until 9:00. I’m just going to let you wait until 9:00 to have your walk and your food. I will do it, but I am like, when you get home, please say, thank you because this is not how I want to live my life. And also, I paid for Shiloh to have a professional trainer because it truly was impacting the relationship. And I was losing my mind whenever she would… I mean, she just was annoying as hell. Shiloh used to be so fucking annoying. After our first day when we went home together — because that’s how I get down — Shiloh was jumping up and down behind this gate that went into the bedroom for two hours, just nonstop. This jumping, jumping, jumping, jumping. So whenever I would look over, I just see this fucking dog, like a little pogo stick.

Christina: I would find that quite distracting.

Brittani: And I honestly was like, I don’t know if I want to go on another date because if this is this dog’s energy, I simply cannot deal with it in my life. And so yeah. Getting Shiloh to behave better has been a real boon to how we get along.

Christina: Yeah. I would imagine.

Drew: That is a thing that I’ve… Thinking about dating experiences, not in serious relationships, but just like out in the big wide world of dating, there are dogs that are major cock blocks where you’re like, get out of this bed. I do feel like there is a dog that did maybe prevent a threesome of mine. In retrospect, it was the right… The dog was doing the right thing. But in the moment I was like, why, get out of here. Why are you here? You’re killing the vibe. And I do feel like there’s been other times where I’ve been like, is this dog going to be… Part of the boundaries of, I don’t know, dogs are dirty. I love dogs so much, but I don’t want someone petting a dog and then putting that finger inside me. I don’t want that. So I do need a dog to, even if the dog’s sleeping in bed, they have to understand that there are times where their owners are in bed and it’s not for sleeping, and they need to be away.

Christina: Yeah. I think drawing a line at the dog being in bed while we’re having sex is a very fair line to draw. I feel as though you felt uncertain that you could say that, but I think say it loud and proud, Drew.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: No dog in bed during sex. Honestly, no cat either. No animal. No snakes.

Drew: No pets in general.

Christina: I don’t want the snake showing up. I’m telling you that. I’m telling you that right now.

Drew: I do think because of Britney Spears, there is a part of me that thinks snakes are sexier than dogs, but I still don’t… I do agree with you. No snake involved, but there is something about a snake. The snake feels less, they also don’t have fur. So I don’t know why that feels cleaner. Maybe as someone who lives with a snake, you would know that snakes aren’t cleaner. But for some reason, I have this cultural association of snakes being sleek and sexy. I still don’t want them involved.

Christina: I was going to say, Drew, you are walking the line.

Brittani: And a snake does not want to be involved.

Drew: Look, it’s not my fault. It’s Britney Spears’ fault.

Christina: Well, and that’s that, I guess. It’s a wrap on that.

Drew: Let’s move to our final segment, which is Crush Corner. Christina, do you want to start us off this week?

Christina: I need a second to decide. So what if you started us off this week.

Drew: I’m going to let our guest start off this week.

Christina: Oh, fun. Switching it up.

Brittani: All right. Well, my crush is this show called Resident Alien, which I just found out about last week, and I’m watching it with my girlfriend and I’m just having a real blast.

Drew: Where can one watch this show?

Brittani: We’ve been watching it on Peacock. But I think it comes on Syfy? That’s a channel, right?

Christina: I think it’s Syfy, yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Tell me more about this show.

Brittani: It’s just a show about an alien that crash lands in Patience, Colorado, I believe, with the mission to kill all humans. And he ends up taking over this doctor’s body and someone in town dies and then he’s helping solve the mystery of who killed this doctor. And it’s Alan Tudyk, I think is his name, notably the pirate from Dodgeball. I think it’s his claim to fame and it’s just delightful. It’s just a fun little show. Funny, cute. I like it.

Drew: Cool. Great. My crush this week is Jennifer Jones, the actress from the forties. Specifically in Cluny Brown, which is one of my favorite screwball comedies. I just rewatched it with my girlfriend, because she hadn’t seen it before. She has not seen a lot of old movies, which is a lot of fun, because I get to show all my favorites. And Cluny Brown is just an incredible movie and I highly recommend it. And Jennifer Jones is just so beautiful and charming in it.

Christina: I love that my crush this week, I’m going to go classic. I’m going to bring it to my girl who’s held me down through many years. My good queen, Florence Welch. I have been banging that album, having feelings like I am in 2010 all over again. I love her spooky witch ways. And I think she’s a real talent and a real treat. And I’m glad that she’s sober and seems to be really working that out. And this new album is emotional in that way, but also just gorgeous. And she’s just happy to holler on a track with her little spooky witch voice. And I think it’s lovely and I love her. I love that. Yeah.

Drew: Great. Well, Brittani, do you want to tell people where they can find you and your work?

Brittani: Yeah. I am at @bishilarious on Twitter and Instagram. If you’ve never seen the film, Suicide Kale, I’d encourage you to check that out. And I’m currently running for Abbott Elementary and we will be premiering on September 21st, the second season. And the first season’s on Hulu.

https://twitter.com/BisHilarious/status/1486456339949752322

Christina: Yeah. Abbott Elementary. Heard of it people? Get involved.

Drew: Thanks, Brittani.

Brittani: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Drew: Yeah, of course.

Christina: Thanks so much for chatting with us about animals. I’ve learned so much about snakes.

Drew: Yeah.

Brittani: You should get one.

Christina: There was a period in my most obnoxious “I’m not like other girls” phase where I was like I’m going to get a snake. And then I was like, grow up. Just stop acting like that. Come on. Nobody likes that energy on you.

Drew: You know what, and clearly that’s not necessarily true. So you could get a snake. I mean, I don’t think you should get a snake because of that energy, but I do think you could embrace a different sort of snake energy and it’d be a good one.

Christina: Yes. I think having a snake now that I am the proper lesbian that I clearly was always meant to be, as opposed to pretending to be straight and being like, I’m going to have a snake that would have be awful, but this is fine. I think now it would be much better.

Brittani: Yeah. You should make snake lesbian a thing. That could become its own personality type.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to, Wait, Is This A Date. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at waitisthisadate. And you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Manya Dahr, and this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter at c_gracet and on Instagram at christina_gracet. And you can find Autostraddle of course, at Autostraddle.

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment hurriedly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this. On the case here, we don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them, and us, the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): Trumpet the bloodhound just won the dog show. And can you imagine dating someone who not only had a dog and loved their dog, but had a dog that won the dog show? That’d probably be a nightmare. But there’d be some prestige.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 203: Dating Men

A fun fact about the queer community is most people have experience dating men. No, I’m not just talking about the cis gay boys — I’m talking about most of our listeners! (Though I do hope we have a large contingency of cis gay male listeners tbh.) Whether you’re a lesbian who dated men as a teen or a queer person who dates lots of genders, our community is far too mixed and gender is far too complicated to leave men — cis and trans — out of our discussions.

That’s why this week our topic is dating men and our very special guest is writer, director, podcaster, icon, and my best friend, Gabe Dunn! For those who don’t know them, Gabe has been dating men throughout their entire identity journey. They talk to us about dating men when they thought they were a cis woman and dating men now that they’re out as transmasculine. We also get into the awful cis men from Boston that Christina dated before coming out and wonder why I have a desire to fuck Jon Hamm.

But first! We play a game I call “Netflix & Shill” that asks such questions as: How gay is the Olsen Twin vehicle New York Minute?

SHOW NOTES

+ If you want more of Gabe check out the episode of Bad with Money that Christina and I were on last year.

+ Since recording, Gabe got their two new Swayze tattoos!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfelxPKp6lS/

+ And just a reminder: You should watch Road House.

+ Important footage of Jenifer Lewis at the 2019 GLAAD Awards:

+ Jaida Essence Hall. The hottest pig in town.

+ Watch Gabe’s short film, Grindr Baby.

EPISODE

Gaby: I think if I get top surgery, it’s going to change immensely. That’s my fear is that once I get top surgery, these guys are going to be like, “Wait a minute.”

Christina: “Hold on. You took the titties away.”

Gaby: Right. That’s what I think.

Christina: “What’s going on?”

Gaby: “Wait a minute. You have full facial hair and shh, but these titties are giving me an out” and then when I don’t have them, I’m curious what they’re going to think.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: Welcome to, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast all about dating and figuring out if things are dates and other topics, as we decide, those topics will be, as we record more episodes of this podcast called, Wait, Is This a Date? That took a turn. Got to say, didn’t expect a single word to come out of my mouth in that order, but wow, here we are.

Drew: I realized that in our intro, I have given you the responsibility of saying something new every time. I say, “Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?” Then I go, “Christina,” and you get to just ad lib and it’s always entertaining.

Christina: It’s always something. As they say, heavy is the head that wears the crown and my crown is, occasionally, these headphones and this podcast.

Drew: Incredible. My name is Drew Gregory. I am a writer for Autostraddle, a filmmaker. You said last time that I always paused before I say my identities. Once again, I’m a queer trans woman and general gay person.

Christina: That’s gorgeous. I’m Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle and the internet abound, I am a gay cis woman. In that way, I think we’re a really beautiful team.

Drew: When I think of Christina, I think cis woman.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I don’t think big faggot.

Christina: Yeah. No. Thank you. That is, actually, also a large part of my identity is being a gigantic faggot.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I’ve heard a rumor that you have a game for me.

Drew: I sure do.

Christina: By I’ve heard a rumor, I mean, you texted me directly.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: In many ways, what is a rumor? Who can say? It can be whatever you want it to be for the sake of a podcast.

Drew: I hope this is okay.

Christina: Oh boy.

Drew: I’m just going to talk for a little while and you don’t have to say anything because I don’t want you to incriminate yourself.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: You used to work for an account called, Most. It wasn’t owned by Netflix. I don’t really understand the inner workings, but basically, it was in charge of sharing the queer content on Netflix each month. Now, before Netflix decided to fire a bunch of their queer employees right before Pride, but before that, you were part of the team that was in charge of pitching what I would say is Netflix’s lackluster queer content. Every month, the Most account was tasked with releasing the queer content for the month. A lot of times, there wasn’t enough queer content or the queer content that was there, Netflix, for some reason, didn’t want to promote because it was maybe too edgy or was foreign or whatever.

A lot of the stuff that’s on these lists is to call it queer is generous, but because you no longer have that job, I thought you could do one last hurrah, a two weeks notice if you will that was not granted by this corporation. I have a game called, “Netflix and Shill” where I’m going to name titles that were on the monthly “this is what’s queer and coming to Netflix.” I haven’t seen all of them, but I do think that most of them are not… at least the queerness is subtle or minor or supporting character. What I’m going to need from you is for you to explain to me why this work of media is so deeply important to queer history and the queer community.

Christina: Okay. I think I can do this and not get sued.

Drew: Great.

Christina: I think that’s thrilling.

Drew: Great. Well, okay. Our first title is, a Netflix flagship series. We’re going to go with Bridgerton.

Christina: Bridgerton. Bridgerton is deeply important to the queer community due to two actors, the leads of, I guess, this last season are both queer. We celebrate queer actors even if they are both playing straight in that way.

Drew: That’s really beautiful.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Queer actors can play straight roles.

Christina: Yes, they can. Honestly, Jonathan Bailey did a pretty impressive job of being a straight man. Good for him.

Drew: I do love that. Okay. Next up, Is it Cake?

Christina: Is it Cake? Honestly, of Netflix reality shows that I watched during my tenure there, I had a ball watching Is it Cake? which is either a comment on how many terrible reality shows there are or how broken my brain was by this job. It’s tough to say. Is it Cake? had a bevy of queer contestants and also, many gay judges including Rebecca Black, which was very fun and thrilling.

Drew: Right. That’s nice.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Okay. The ’90s film, You’ve Got Mail.

Christina: Quick cameo from Sara Ramirez and Nora Ephron really knows how to write and gays like writing. I don’t know.

Drew: I think we do like writing. I can attest to that.

Christina: It is not my favorite of the Ephrons, but it’s there. It’s in the canon.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: But I do think it was that 10-second Sara Ramirez moment.

Drew: Okay. Wow. I was going to say I should rewatch it because I don’t remember them being in it, but maybe I shouldn’t rewatch it. Who’s to say. Next up is, I Know What You Did Last Summer.

Christina: I’m going to draw a big old blank on this one. Gays do love horror in a way that I don’t because I am not that kind of gay. Screaming is camp. I don’t know. Who can say?

Drew: You heard it here, folks, screaming is camp.

Christina: Who can say? I don’t even know if I’ve ever seen that movie, to be honest. I must have as like a child. I must have looked at it and then decided, no, horror is simply not for me.

Drew: Next up is one that you probably have seen. New York Minute.

Christina: That’s the Lindsay Lohan film, I believe.

Drew: I think it’s Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen.

Christina: There’s a Lindsay one that’s also about New York, but that has something to do with luck or something. Again, Mary-Kate and Ashley are iconic and that they are swamp witches now and refuse to do anything normal except for like, make large beige clothing for The Row, which is somehow pretty gay of them, but actually, I don’t think I have seen that film.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: I do support the Olsens in their work.

Drew: I love that.

Christina: And/or their lack of work recently. I think that’s actually equally inspirational. They really put in their time as children.

Drew: The next one I have not seen and you probably have not seen it. I tried to Google how gay it was and I don’t think it’s gay. Maybe it is gay and I just… The Lincoln Lawyer. Is The Lincoln Lawyer gay?

Christina: What?

Drew: With Matthew McConaughey?

Christina: If it is, I am shocked to hear it. I’m trying to… No, I’ve never seen it. I know a little bit about Lincoln. He was tall.

Drew: He was also rumored to be like a little gay, which is why I’m like, “Was The Lincoln Lawyer about… was Matthew McConaughey playing a gay lawyer?” I don’t think so based on my quick Google, but listener, if you’ve seen The Lincoln Lawyer, please send us an email. How gay is it?

Christina: Yeah. My guess would say that there’s some lightly gay subplot or there’s a gay actor in it.

Drew: Great.

Christina: That would be the two reasons it could make the list.

Drew: Okay. My Best Friend’s Wedding.

Christina: The most iconic gay friend, I think, of all time in Rupert Everett. Honestly, the only rom-com that has an ending that I’ve ever really identified with because girl, you will end up alone but you will have your best gay friend there at the wedding for you. That is gay culture.

Drew: That was an easy one, but it felt worth mentioning. This, also, might be an easy one for you specifically, the 1982, Annie.

Christina: Though I am a musical faggot, boy, do I hate Annie? Because boy, do I hate children singing more than almost anything in the world. I find them all incredibly annoying. I think, “The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow” is one of the worst songs in musical theater history.

Drew: Bernadette Peters is in this one, right?

Christina: Bernadette is in that one. That is the one with Bernadette, which feels like enough would be enough for me. She’s famously a sticker on my water bottle, but I got nothing.

Drew: That’s not an expression. I want to clarify.

Christina: No.

Drew: That is literally… There’s a Bernadette Peters sticker on Christina’s water bottle. Yeah, staring at it right now. There you go.

Christina: She’s above Viola Davis.

Drew: That’s beautiful.

Christina: I love history. Herstory, I’m sorry.

Drew: I have three more. Oscar nominated film, Don’t Look Up.

Christina: Cate Blanchett gets to say whatever she wants because of Carol, I think. I think that’s it.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Gay men love Ariana Grande.

Drew: Yeah. I definitely saw that movie though I like to pretend in my brain that I didn’t because it was so bad, but I didn’t remember there being any gay characters. Was Jennifer Lawrence bisexual in it?

Christina: She had a bisexual haircut in it.

Drew: Okay. That’s enough. Okay. Two more. My Little Pony: A New Generation.

Christina: I don’t know what happens with those ponies.

Drew: Are they gay?

Christina: They’re ponies. My gut says yes. There’s something gay about saying the phrase, “My little pony,” but what occurs on that program, that’s not my business.

Drew: Great. Well then, we have one more, which I don’t know if you had to see this one for work, but I’ve heard things. Diana: The Musical.

Christina: Oh boy did I watch Diana: The Musical. That was really hard to watch. I know there is a contingent of theater gays who are like, “No. Actually, we’re bravely coming out to say that Diana: The Musical is brilliant.” I would like to have a very long talk with those gays because I am perplexed by that. Well, it’s musical, so kind of just like, gays love a musical, but also, I think her valet or something is gay but not specifically gay, but has a big gay man dressing a pretty woman energy. Boy, that musical was awful.

Drew: Is there mention of AIDS in the musical?

Christina: Oh yeah, there is a whole, in fact, scene that I actually blocked due to trauma because it is a musical number about having HIV and AIDS and it’s bad, bad, bad lyrics.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Lyrically a flop.

Drew: Wow. Well, this was a really beautiful time.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Thank you for playing this dangerous game with me. I’d just like to say that while I don’t support large corporations or comedians who are transphobic, I do love the show, Sex Education and I would take Netflix money to make my own show whenever they would like. Just putting that on the record.

Christina: I think that’s a great thing to be on the record.

Drew: Maybe after this I’ll pop some popcorn and watch The Lincoln Lawyer.

Christina: I love that. Of all the movies on the list, that’s the one where you’re like, “I’ve got some questions we got to untangle there.”

Drew: Well, let’s move on to our topic of the week, which is dating men. I often say, we have a very special guest because we don’t really do like not special guests because what’s the point of having a podcast for that.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: But this person is my best friend. I will let them introduce themselves.

Gaby: Oh my God. Hi. I’m Gaby Dunn. I’m Drew’s best friend. I’m also a writer and a noted internet bisexual gay person. Yeah. I work in TV and film. Sometimes books, sometimes podcasts. I’m sure you’ll do the thing at the end, which is like, “promote whatever you want to promote or whatever.” I won’t bore you up top, but…

Christina: Please don’t.

Gaby: Yeah. Mostly, I am your friend. Hi.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. That’s the best part, I think.

Drew: Have you ever dated a man?

Gaby: Oh my God. Oh boy. Okay. Here’s my journey.

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: I was like the bisexual cis woman of the internet for a while. I, yeah, dated a lot of men. Now, I’m like a nonbinary transmasculine person. I’m still dating men, but it’s different. My partner is a transmasculine person. They’re on testosterone, then other people I’m seeing are a lot of trans men. There’s one cis man, but he is dead to me right now and then other people that… It’s gotten to be more of a T4T situation up in here, but yeah, I used to date a lot of… We’re roasting cis men. Is that what we’re doing?

Drew: No. No, I would never. No. I think what I’m interested in is, when we were first discussing the season and possible topics and guests, this was back in January, I was like, “Oh, well, by the time, we would have Gaby, I think they’ll be a man.” That’s also an interesting dynamic. I don’t know about that, but it definitely hasn’t not come true in certain ways. I’m interested in just mapping the trajectory of all the different ways. Obviously, gender is complicated. Every individual relationship is its own relationship, but I know Christina has experience dating cis men as a cis woman. You have experienced dating cis men as a “cis woman.”

Christina: Sure.

Drew: You have experience dating trans men as a “cis woman.”

Gaby: Yeah, air quotes. Air quotes around all of that.

Drew: Yeah. You can’t see the air quotes because—

Christina: Oh they could hear them. They were very audible to the audience.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Now, you’re a transmasculine person still dating men, both cis and trans. I don’t know. I’m just interested in getting into the differences and certain patterns.

Gaby: Sure.

Drew: And what your relationship was to men as… Really, there’s a huge difference between being a closeted transmasculine person and a cis woman.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: You both offer those perspectives and wow.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: How exciting for me.

Gaby: Okay. Here’s the thing. I’m two months on T, right now, as we speak. That is a very different journey. I came out as nonbinary a year ago, almost a year ago. I was still super femme at the time although, what does that mean? I had long hair, but I now have cut my hair. I’m on T. The T is starting to show. I have a little mustache. I still have boobs. I just don’t ever acknowledge them. Now, it’s a little interesting with the cis straight men that I see because I’m like, “Do I have to care about what you identify as? Does that matter to me? What are you? What are you seeing me as? What is this?”

One of them I was hooking up with before. No, two. Well, here’s the journey. I was hooking up with them before I went on T and cut my hair, right? They’re still around. One of them… Okay. I was a woman. I went out with this person. They were sort of, on their Hinge bio they were like a guy, but there was something about them that was very effeminate. I was like, “This is interesting.” Then we went out. It was like, “Why did you swipe on me?” I was like, “You have a really feminine energy.” I was like, let’s see what this person says. They were like, “Oh, I love that. Thank you.” We hooked up regular, like straight people or whatever and then—

Christina: Hooked up regular is my new favorite phrase.

Gaby: Yeah. I don’t know. Boring. Later, I saw this person again. We started to hook up and then they just broke down. This was, now, I look this way. So the last time they saw me, I was a lady. Now, I look this way. They came to see me again. They hit me up. Just FYI, they were like, “I can’t get enough.”

Drew: Returning customers.

Gaby: Always. They just broke down and were like, “I don’t know. I think I’m a woman. I don’t know.” I was like, “Yeah, babe.” They were saying all this stuff where they were like, “Maybe I’m not queer. I’m just jealous of all queer people. What if people think I’m faking being a trans woman? I’m not a trans woman, but I just wish I could be as confident as a trans woman.” All this stuff that was like, “Babe, you could just be a trans woman.” Then they were like, “I don’t know. Maybe I’m like not actually queer and I’m just pretending.” I started laughing. I was like, “I don’t mean to laugh at you, but this is gay.”

Christina: Whatever experience you’re having here, something’s gay about it, my friend.

Gaby: Yeah. They’re like, “I don’t know. Maybe I’m not queer.” I’m just sitting there, literally, a transmasculine person with this AMAB person being like, “Really, I don’t want to tell you what’s happening to you right now, but we are in a bed kissing and cuddling. I got to let you know that you are having gay sex actively right now.”

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: This is gay right now.

Christina: Nothing straight is happening here in this conversation has ever happened betwixt us.

Gaby: They were like, “Oh,” and then, really, it just became like me sending them memes to try to get them to understand and then them being like, “Yeah, I’m probably trans feminine.” That was one of the last, “cis men” that had showed up in my life.

Drew: Right.

Gaby: I think even when I was very feminine, I had a lot of cis straight men that I dated who were unnerved. They liked me and they were into me, but there was some hump that they couldn’t get over there. There was some… And I didn’t know what they were reading on me at the time, but there was always this thing where they just couldn’t get a grasp on what I was and they were reading something that they liked a little bit because they got a proximity to queerness that they thought was interesting, but then it would start to get very queer and they were not into it. One partner that I had that was a long term boyfriend, just this is 2016 where I really thought I was a cis woman, I cut all my hair off and I started referring to myself as “ya boy.” I wore only men’s underwear. I wore men’s bathing suits.

At the time, this guy, this guy is the most cis straight, although now I suspect maybe something’s up with him, but anyway. When he was breaking up with me, he was like, “I feel like I’m not allowing you to be your true self.” I was like, “What an idiot.” I was like, “Why would he think that. That’s so fucking stupid. What a dumbass.” I actively had a coffee table book in my car that said genderqueer that was pictures of genderqueer people that I was going to put in my apartment as this was happening.

Christina: You were like, “Anyway, what a dummy. Ya boy out.”

Gaby: “What a fucking moron. Ya boy out.” Then I started dating a bi cis guy and that was very freeing. Now, in retrospect, I think being with him, let me feel like a gay guy. Because I had short hair, he was bi, everything we did was very faggoty. The last time I ran into him was at an Ariana Grande concert. I was like, “Oh, this person is my gender.” I don’t know. A lot of the men that I had dated in the past are now trans women.

Drew: I do know this about you.

Christina: That’s quite a pipeline. That’s—

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: I do love that anybody who is like… There’s this group of cis dudes on apps who are like, “I’m working through something. I’m going to swipe on this and see what happens.”

Gaby: Well, yeah. Also, it’s different people. Once I change my pronouns to they/them it’s a totally different crowd.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: I always thought, even when I looked like a woman, right? My partner, Mal and I were in South Carolina and there was a group of frat guys in a car outside of a restaurant. We’re walking around the restaurant. I look like a woman, so they stop to check if I’m hot or whatever. I would say, out of the five of them, four of them are like, “That’s a weirdo.” One of the five does a second look. That’s happened my whole life. If I can get that fifth one, that’s the one I want and not anymore, but back when I was a woman. Because I’m like, “What’s up with you? You’re fucking weird.”

Christina: Yeah, something’s happening.

Gaby: You’re like bi or gay or you’re trans or something, because you took a second look at me and all your little frat bros didn’t. What’s your fucking deal?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, that’s going to be a sight that’s going to fester for that fifth one. That’s going to just be a recurring theme that they’re just going to keep running back to and being like, “What was that?”

Gaby: You’re different than your friends.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. One out of five dentists is super fucking gay.

Gaby: You’re going to try to get me to peg you or something and not tell your friends. I know. I can see you.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Listen, when you know, you know.

Drew: Well, now though, maybe this is a question for you in a year, but are you interacting with cis gay men now, in a new way? Do you feel like that world is starting to open up to you? Or is there just too much transphobia in the cis gay male world to quite get there yet?

Gaby: It depends. The big problem is, I still have boobs…

Drew: Right.

Gaby: …which I think gives the cis straight men that I date a little bit of an out, where they’re like, “Yeah, this is a person with facial hair and actively a man or a trans but titties are there, so plausible deniability.”

Drew: Right.

Gaby: Okay. Here’s what’s happening as I post more masculine thirst traps. The straight girls coming out of the woodwork.

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: These are people that aren’t going to follow through, right? It’s the straight girls who are like, “Damn, thirst trapping.” And whatever. Those people are not going to follow through. The cis gay men who comment are also probably not going to follow through at this point.

Drew: Right.

Gaby: It is nice because they’ll write like, “Daddy” or whatever. I’m, literally, one of five tops in West Hollywood. Come on.

Christina: Well, well.

Gaby: There’s bottoms galore, but you need me. I don’t think they really have follow through. I don’t think they’re really going to try to ask me out or fuck me right now. You know what I mean? They’re like—

Drew: Right.

Christina: Yeah. They’re going to throw little heart eyes comment.

Gaby: Just to keep me on the line.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Right.

Gaby: Keep me spicy until I pass.

Christina: Just keeping an eye.

Gaby: Yeah, which is a strange thing to keep me on the line until I pass just to see.

Drew: I’m also interested in this idea of like, “Oh, if this person hooks up with me, then they’re gay.” Because I also think that there’s a level of, I don’t know, how is someone seeing you, right?

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: I know in my experience, when I first moved to LA and my hair was luscious, but not quite so long, I was hit on a lot by cis gay men who were reading me as a little twink. The more… My boobs grew a little bit more and my hair got a little longer and then they disappeared.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Which—

Christina: Fade into the tall grass.

Drew: Yeah. They’re not really there anymore. It’s like, do we read those cis gay men as more bisexual than they let themselves on?

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Or are they just transphobicly or ignorantly reading us differently. I think about that when it comes to the cis men, especially. I think with trans people and closeted trans people, we’re all on our own journeys. So it’s like what are you going to do?

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: But with the cis men, I’m always interested in this idea of what can we, as a culture, be like everyone’s a lot gayer and transer then they are willing to admit.

Gaby: Right.

Drew: They need to deal with that. Versus being like they’re not respecting us and they’re seeing us wrong and how much do we want to put up with that and that sort of thing.

Gaby: I don’t know because I’m also like, as I’m hooking up with more other transmasculine people, which has been a delight, I am realizing that a lot of them have an opposite experience to me where they were seen as lesbians or butch lesbians, have almost no experience with men, and then have become more “passing” trans-masculine people, and then all of a sudden are hooking up with men. But I’m the opposite. I was a hot girl. I had no problem being a hot girl. I didn’t feel awkward about it. I was doing the utmost level of drag. I’m not joking, a hot girl, nightclub hot girl. I have a lot of experience with men. They’re largely boring. I have a lot of confidence. Even when I would date men, I would fuck around. I would touch the small of their back to lead them places. I would do things to try to make them feel the girl. I was like—

Christina: No reason anyway.

Gaby: I know because I was like, “It’s a bit.” I just was always so confident. With men, right now, I have no problem. Even looking like this, I’m like, “I could probably still get you.” Men are like a paint by numbers. They’re so easy to me, but then the opposite thing with me was women, which is a thing with bisexuals where it’s like, “Women are more difficult.” Now then once women started to become easier to me, I was like great and I was hooking up with more women. I had a long term partner. I was like, “We are girlfriends.” That person is a trans-masculine person also. I think I have a different experience where a lot of the trans men that I’m friends with are like, “Oh my God, boys. What do I do? Boys.” I’m like, “Who needs it? It’s boring shit.”

Drew: It’s inspiring.

Gaby: Yeah. I just never had that experience. When my partner and I first started dating and I was very feminine and they’re a transmasculine person, we would go to a coffee shop and the barista would be like, “What are you going to get?” Leave a smiley face on Mal’s receipt. For me, I’d be like, “They forgot my drink, fully.” You know what I mean?

Drew: Now you walk back into the coffee shop like the scene from Pretty Woman and are like—

Gaby: Big mistake!

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: Huge!

Christina: Huge.

Drew: Christina, when you were in your straight era, what kind of men were drawn to you and what kind of men were you drawn to?

Christina: The worst kind. A lot of that, I will blame on living in Boston, Massachusetts.

Gaby: Hell yeah.

Christina: A thing that my friends love to joke about is like, “Well, thank God you’re a dyke now, because the men that you were dating were just the worst.” There is a straight version of me somewhere. She works in PR. Her boyfriend is some horrible capitalist, venture capitalist bro. Just like the doucheist finance lawyery types. Just like the…

Gaby: Oh my God.

Christina: …worst. I hated them because I was gay, but also, it was so easy to date them because I hated them. They were so into how uninterested I was in them that it made it very simple to just keep them around and then be like, “No, I’m done with this. I don’t like you. I don’t like being here.” Then three months later, I’d be like, “Let’s pick up another guy named John at a bar. Whatever.” It was just me negging men I could not stand due to being a dyke and then being like, “Yeah, I’m done. Done with this now.” It was a dark period.

Gaby: That is dark. I think I would pick not like that. I think I would pick effeminate guys and then I would be like, “We’re just both gay guys.” They would be like, “That’s not what’s happening.”

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: We’ve talked about this, but if we had met five years earlier, you would have ruined my life. I would’ve been obsessed with you.

Gaby: I would have been in love with you.

Drew: Yeah, but you also would’ve ruined my life.

Gaby: Absolutely. I’m a monster, but you—

Christina: Gorgeous transparency work right here. This is beautiful stuff. This is how communities stay together. This is nice.

Gaby: Drew as a boy was exactly who I would’ve gone after. Exactly. Which is like, then. she is a trans woman.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. The pattern continues.

Gaby: Yeah. I would’ve been like, “The little one who fucks.” That’s where I would’ve been like, “Hey.”

Christina: Hey.

Drew: I think I would’ve learned about bottoming a lot sooner.

Gaby: I was always trying to get those straight boys to let me at their butt holes. Sometimes they would do it and sometimes they would be like, “Why are you obsessed with this?”

Drew: I’ll tell you what, during that era, all I wanted was to not use my dick and to do exactly what my partner wanted—

Christina: Well…

Drew: Unfortunately, those things were in—

Christina: Constant conflict?

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: It is interesting to me because I don’t have a lot of experience dating men. And by not a lot, I mean, basically zero. But I do have experienced dating people who, at the time, I thought were women or were nonbinary fems and have since transitioned or have since become more masculine. It’s definitely changed my relationship to my identity. As you will note, when I pause in the beginning of the intros, last year would end with me saying, lesbian. Look, I think the term lesbian, historically, encompasses a lot of genders and a lot of sexualities. I think I still could identify as a lesbian if anyone who I was dating wasn’t bothered by it, but I have just been like, “I don’t know.”

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I’m very open. I would love to have an experience… Love is maybe a strong word, but I do feel like, if, in my entire life, I never have sex with a cis man, that would be such a bummer. Just from a FOMO…

Christina: Wow.

Drew: …life experience sort of way.

Christina: Interesting.

Gaby: There’s some that you think are hot. You’ve said some are hot.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Usually, bisexual ones. Usually, queer. I love an effeminate queer man.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I don’t feel any attachment to genders of people that I date.

Gaby: No. It seems weird to.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Also, a lot of the “women.” I don’t have to quote unquote, but women that I date. I don’t know. I will think of them more as, if we’re thinking of things in a binary way… Like I don’t generally date high femmes.

Christina: Right.

Drew: I generally date people who are tomboys. I’ve hooked up with a wide variety and have casually dated a wide variety, but most of the people I’ve had long term relationships with have a masculinity to them. Then it’s like, I don’t know. It just makes me feel like men be it like a binary trans guy or cis men are on the horizon at some point in my life. Why would you want to…? I just feel like… I don’t know. It also feels like I missed out on this really quintessential lesbian experience that Christina is describing where you date awful men for many years before you figure yourself out. I didn’t have that.

Christina:Yeah. You, too, could be miserable going on dates with men and slamming nips in the alleys before going to a date being like, “This is normal. This is what people who love dating men do. Just be like lightly blackout drunk when you arrive. It’s fine.”

Drew: To be fair. It does sound similar to what it was like dating straight girls, which I guess is another type of lesbian experience.

Christina: Well, sure. That is. That’s not one I’ve had, so in that way.

Drew: Oh.

Gaby: Christina, what’s your type?

Christina: See, and this is the other funny thing. Thinking about when we think about the genders that we are attracted to. When I was dating men, I was dating like, “That is a man. That is just like… That is a cis dude. That dude is big and like a giant. He had a big dumb head, just like a big idiot.” Every time I’m attracted to a woman, I’m like, “That is the most femme woman I’ve ever seen in my entire life.” I am extremely femme for femme even though my femme vibes have shifted to be more faggy. Truly, just Robin Williams in Birdcage femme.

Gaby: Yes.

Christina: I am always just like, it is very interesting that I went from extreme gender of man, extreme gender of woman, nothing in between. Like what is that about? What’s going on up here?

Drew: It’s interesting because so many people in the queer community are the opposite.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: Where they’re like, “I’m just attracted to androgyny.” Which I say in like a sarcastic voice, but I don’t mean it to be. If that’s what you’re into, that’s fine as long as you’re not being fetishy and weird. But it’s interesting that you’re the opposite.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I don’t know a lot of people that are the opposite who are like, “Be binary.”

Christina: I don’t either.

Gaby: Christina, I think, probably when you are closeted and you’re trying to find a man, you don’t have your own radar.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: You’re just like, “What has society told me? What have movies told me is a man.” I remember in middle school, I would just sit in the cafeteria and be like, “I got to choose a boy to have a crush on. Okay, who does everyone else like? Okay.”

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: “I can’t do that. It’s too obvious. I’ll do his friend.”

Christina: Yeah, with a slightly different version of that. Yeah.

Gaby: Yeah. You’re picking from what other people are saying is hot.

Christina: Yeah. Except that I’ve always had those friends who are like you two. Like, “I love this tiny little sensitive emotion.” I’m like get that shit away from me. I don’t want to hear a man talk about a feeling. Not one time. Stop that. Never again. No man with a guitar. No man writing poetry. I don’t want to look at it. I don’t want to hear it. I’m not interested in that energy. I don’t know. Maybe I’m just like, “Feelings boys, away. Away from me.”

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Well, when you think of binary women who are very femme women, are they allowed to be super emotional?

Christina: Yeah. Women can do whatever they want.

Drew: Yeah, but like—

Christina: That’s science.

Drew: When I think of your crushes though, they are like ice queen mommi. Maybe that’s not in your actual dating life, it isn’t quite that, but in your crushes, that is what manifests and they are also not super emotional. There’s a masculinity… There is actually…

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: You can be so femme that you somehow gain a masculinity.

Gaby: Absolutely.

Christina: Right. That ice queen like emotionalist thing, I’m always like, “Is that a crush moment or is that a me feeling seen moment?” That’s always tough to say. Because like, “Is that just me? Am I just doing that?” That’s just what I do in the lack of feelings and vulnerability space that I’m constantly vibing in. Yeah. The women that I have tended to date, I’m always like, “Why am I dating another golden? Why is this golden retriever energy here? What is this peppy theater kid do-something-fun? What is this? Why am I here again?”

Gaby: Opposites attract.

Christina: Yes. A large part of it is that I am aware of who I am as a person and that I can be a stubborn and not fun. I do need someone to be like, “Shut the fuck up. We’re going outside today.”

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Which is, yeah. I think that’s life sometimes, but yeah.

Gaby: Here’s another thing. Here’s a problem that I have had. Now, I’m unpacking it the opposite way. I had a thing where I was like oh, you don’t actually want to date these guys. You want to be them or you think that they are cool. Versus like… So I would be like oh, I want to be this person or I want to be like this person, so I’m going to get proximity to them. Or I see myself in them or I see something that I want to be or I want to take away in them, mostly from men. There’s two things, two lyrics that I like. There’s a Neko Case lyric where she is like, “I fucked every man that I wanted to be.” Then there’s a Lil Nas X lyric where he says, “I only fuck the ones I envy.”

Christina: Wow. The two genders, really, right?

Gaby: I know.

Christina: That’s where it is.

Gaby: The two genders. I was like, “Wow,” but then I thought that was bad. I was like, “Okay, you can’t do that anymore. That’s bad. You have to parse out. That’s not attraction. That’s not whatever.” Now, I’m back and I’m like, “Who cares? Why is that bad? People fuck for all kinds of reasons.”

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: If I envy someone and I want to fuck them because I envy them, why am I pathologizing myself?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I think, at some point, I do think it is good to be aware of the things that shape your desires and wants and et cetera, but I do think, at some point, pathologizing all of your interests, be it sexual, be it like… you’re going to run into trouble. It’s not going to be successful after a while.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: You’re just going to end up tangled into a moral quandary where you’re like, “Can I do anything ever? Have I ever made a choice?” That doesn’t seem like a fun way to live.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I think it’s definitely good to… I agree with that. Be aware, but then also, at the end of the day…

Christina: You gotta get out of your head sometimes.

Drew: I do wonder what the experience would be like for me to like fuck Jon Hamm. One of those guys—

Gaby: Like a GUY.

Drew: A guy who… Like I wonder—

Gaby: Would you bottom for them?

Drew: Well, yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: That would be fun.

Christina: That does sound fun.

Drew: It’s also funny because I think of my five-foot-four cis woman girlfriend that way.

Gaby: Yeah. Well, she is.

Christina: Yeah. Well, she is.

Drew: You know what I mean?

Christina: Exactly.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: So then it’s like, what is—

Christina: You could pop her right in Top Gun: Maverick and she’d be fine.

Drew: Wow. She’ll love to hear that.

Gaby: She’s so funny towards you where she’s just like a high school jock grabbing at your tits and you’re like, “Ahh,” but you like it.

Christina: Yeah, exactly that energy, in fact.

Drew: Yeah. It’s like why fuck Jon Hamm? What’s the need to do that? I don’t think Jon Hamm would be as good at sex.

Gaby: Right.

Drew: There is still a part of my brain that wants the bad experience or wants to try it out.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I do think, ultimately, if I were to have sex with a cis man, it would be a little twink. It probably would be a case where I was topping them, but I could do all of it.

Christina: I love the idea of being like this cis man, a little twink.

Gaby: Also like, what? The two of you would just, what, blow away in the wind? You need like a…

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Just something to weigh you down.

Gaby: Yeah. I think you need a bigger guy.

Drew: It’d be interesting. What I’m saying… It’s funny though because I say this and then the majority of the people who hit on me and look, fellas, don’t stop. I love the praise. I love the validation, but it’s largely transmasculine people or queer cis men. That’s my demo. Those people are the most attracted to me of anyone. When I was single and actively dating a lot, I wasn’t usually into those individuals. So then it makes me go like, “Well, how much of it is just theoretical?”

Gaby: What if it was a cis straight guy was like, came to you and was like, into you?

Drew: Well, that’s what’s interesting, right? Is that like… I just think I maybe passed the place of finding validation in that.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Maybe I’m not as evolved as I think and maybe there would be something validating about it, but then at the end of the day, when you… I think it depends on how that experience went.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: I don’t know. I guess, you and Mal are the only… You were figuring… Were you out as… No, you were starting to talk about it, but you weren’t fully—

Gaby: No, I wasn’t out.

Drew: You weren’t out.

Gaby: No, I wasn’t out.

Drew: You were starting to like… We were having gender conversations.

Gaby: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drew: Mal was obviously out. I feel like the two of you are probably the most… Well, I can think of a couple other people, but those weren’t really good experiences.

Gaby: Right.

Drew: Of experiences that were generally positive, and it did feel different for sure.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: It’s interesting, actually, what it allowed me was to be toppier.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Not with you because no one can top Gaby Dunn.

Gaby: No one can top me, obviously, but—

Drew: With Mal, it was interesting to be like, “Oh, because this person is a boy…” I’m being binary, but yeah.

Gaby: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drew: I feel less. I think my relationship to being a top with partners who wanted that and were cis women, I was really following their lead. I wasn’t really owning it.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: I was a little bit timid, which is not what you want from a top, but I could get into… I could do it. I could be like oh, they want me to do this thing, so I’ll do it and I’ll do it well. I can get into it and whatever. But I felt something very different when with someone who was masculine and able to be, I don’t know. I’m being very binary and very stereotypical.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Being like oh, masculinity isn’t as fragile and I don’t owe this person as much.

Gaby: Exactly.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Or I’m not worried about being creepy to this person or I don’t even know. I can just let myself loose. There was something fun about that.

Christina: Well, yeah.

Drew: Maybe I’ll, maybe I’ll top Jon Hamm. Maybe that’s what I’ll do.

Gaby: Thank you.

Christina: Well, that would be hot.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: That would rock. That’s what we’re all trying to see in this one nation.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Gaby: Christina, who was your last straw? Like you dated a guy and you were like I’m done.

Christina: Oh God. That’s really taking me back. I’m trying to remember. I guarantee you, he had the name like Chris or something. I do think there was one hookup that I had met in a bar and I was like I am done. I just have such a feeling of waking up the next morning being like okay. No, thank you.

Gaby: Why?

Christina: I don’t remember. I was quite drunk. He definitely left in the middle of the night because he was like, “I’m really allergic to cats.” I was like, “Okay, whatever.” Then he came over and he was like, “No, but I’m really allergic to cats.” I was like, “I’m so uninterested in this narrative.” Like, “Are we having sex or not?” We did and then he did leave because he was sneezing quite a bit. Hope he’s well.

Drew: He died.

Christina: Then he died. His name was Matt, I think. I just remember being like okay. I think no more of that. I think I am making myself miserable in a way that I could probably not do and maybe I could have some more fun in this scenario.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Be less cranky and upset all the time because I’m just forcing myself to go on these horrible dates with men that I hate. It seems that I don’t have to do that.

Gaby: Why was it horrible? What were they doing? What were they doing?

Christina: Nothing. They were just being men talking to me and I was like, “I hate this. I hate everything about this.” Sure. They were all douchey in the way of, they were all, mostly, white guys from Boston.

Gaby: God. I’ve dated a lot of white guys from Boston too.

Christina: Can’t recommend it, but they weren’t horrible to me. I just hated the experience of speaking to them.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: I was like, “Perhaps not everybody feels this way when they speak to men. Maybe I don’t have to feel like this.” My friends were like, “Fuckin, finally. Jesus Christ.” Yeah. I was doing my really iconic. “Oh, I’m just an ally for so long.” All of my friends were like, “Sure, sure. Okay. All right.”

Gaby: I guess what I’m getting at is, what is different? Because I’m imagining, literally, a split screen where a guy is like, “Yeah and then I got into venture capital” or whatever and then it’s like a high femme woman who’s like, “And then I got into venture capital,” and you’re like, “That is fascinating.”

Christina: Quite literally, that could be true. I don’t think I’ve dated any venture capitalist women, but I do think that, yeah, that would be, if my life were a sitcom, that would be the little split screen right there. If I had some HBO max series dedicated to my life, that would be the split screen.

Drew: Not to have a Bad with Money detour, but what’s a venture capitalist?

Gaby: It’s just like someone who invests money. It’s stupid.

Christina: They just have money to give other people money and there’s cocaine involved. I don’t know.

Gaby: Yeah. If you have a business, you go to them and you’re like, “Here’s a presentation. Do you want to invest in my business?” And they’re like, “Okay,” but that’s their whole thing.

Christina: Then they ruin it and then they shut it down three weeks later.

Gaby: Then they go, “Yeah, I have a bunch of ideas,” and you go, “I wish I was not involved with you,” and then—

Drew: Like Shark Tank?

Gaby: Yeah, like Shark Tank.

Christina: It’s Shark Tank. Yeah, it’s like Shark Tank.

Gaby: Yeah. Yeah, like Shark Tank.

Christina: Yeah. It’s like Shark Tank and then they say, “Should we pivot to video,” and then they shut it down.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: I see.

Gaby: A real Succession.

Christina: Basically what happens. It’s what’s happened to media, basically.

Drew: Right. Cool. Cool.

Christina: It’s cool. It’s a cool thing to do. Yeah. I genuinely just… I was just like, “I don’t enjoy the experience of speaking to, specifically in that scenario, cis men.” I was like, “This is not fun for me.”

Gaby: I was going to say, were most of them white?

Christina: Majority. Actually, I do think the last guy I dated was Black and I was like, “This could work,” And then I was like, “No.”

Gaby: That’s why I’m wondering.

Christina: “No, this is not going to work either. I’m sorry.”

Gaby: Yeah. Yeah.

Drew: Now that you’re in a very gender diverse queer community, and I would imagine most of the men who you interact with are queer, are trans. Is it connected to being more attracted to more binary genders that’s preventing you? For Christina, like—

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: For dating men, dating nonbinary folks.

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Is it something that you’re open to?

Christina: It’s definitely something I’m open to. I am… Living in my femme for femme life is always a struggle because it is a hard thing to do because a lot of the other femmes I know are interested in dating—

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Either masc of center, masc folks, which I get and respect, but it has not happened to me. I have not had the great moment of some masc of center romance moment. Most of my friends who are some nonbinary, but even more like femme presenting, I’m always like, “Well, that is where my attraction would lie.”

Gaby: Right.

Christina: Yeah, it’s always just like that. I don’t know. I like a tiny little woman who’s going to yell at me. That’s really all I want. Just like a woman who is five-three to be mad at me.

Drew: Wow.

Gaby: Wow.

Drew: We should be able to find you that. I just can’t imagine that we couldn’t. You would have to date and that is something you’re reluctant to do, but—

Christina: Then it always comes back to that, doesn’t it?

Drew: They’re out there.

Gaby: Do you not want to date as much because you care more now?

Christina: Interesting. My gut says no, but maybe.

Gaby: Welcome to therapy, bitch.

Christina: Every time we hop on one of these goddamn podcast recording sessions, it’s a ding dang therapy session every single time. No, I think my lack of interest in dating is definitely tied to my lack of ability to be vulnerable, is definitely my fear of getting intimate with people that are not— in a romantic specific sense. I’m very good at being intimate with my friends. I do just find it more panic inducing for some reason in a romantic context. And it is a reason some have said that I should go to therapy, but–

Gaby: Well, okay, because I’m saying with men, you’re like, “I can have all these boyfriends. I don’t care. I don’t have to be vulnerable with them, whatever.” Whereas, once you start dating someone where you’re like, “Ah, fuck.”

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: “I actually want to be vulnerable with this person and there’s actual stakes here.” You’re like, “Well, fuck me.”

Christina: Yeah. Quite literally, yes.

Gaby: I didn’t even care. I cared about men, but I think I… Okay, so here we go. When I was a cis woman, which is what I’m calling my memoir.

Christina: Gorgeous.

Drew: That’ll sell quick, let me tell you.

Gaby: I know.

Christina: It really will.

Drew: That’s what they want from you.

Gaby: I know. When I was a cis woman, I was like, “Pfft.” I was one of those 2014 feminists who was like, “Men don’t have feelings. Kill all men.” I literally, had—

Christina: Get a bed frame.

Gaby: Girl, I had a male tears mug. When I started dating Mal, I would make them pose with it for pictures. They were like, “This is upsetting to me.” I’d be like, “No, it’s ironic now, you see.”

Christina: It’s feminism now.

Gaby: No, but they were like, “You used to be one of those.” I was like, “Absolutely.” Which, now, I have so much of a more expansive idea of what male is that I’m like, “That’s so dismissive and shitty and not great and not feminism and not funny.” Mal was like, when I showed them that mug, they thought I was like for real and they were like, “Oh my God, another femme who’s going to be mean to me just for being masc,” but then I was like, “No, no, it’s a bit you see.” Cut to three years later, I’m a man. Now, being on testosterone and stuff, I have this weird, now, like I’m getting more empathy for men, where something in my brain is being like, “This might be a little bit how they think.” I always thought that way, but I just was like, “It’s acceptable because I’m a woman, you see?”

It’s interesting. It’s going to be interesting for me to navigate being so confident and so forward. A friend of ours who won’t care, but a friend of ours posted a picture of her ass on close friends. I just immediately was like, “What that ass do,” right?

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: This is my friend, so it’s fine, but that’s going to be a little bit different in the world when I look different, I think.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: Now, I’m like, “Oh, I see. Men have those thoughts, but they can’t say them,” but I—

Drew: When will men finally get to talk?

Christina: When will they get to say that a woman’s ass looks good? God.

Gaby: You know what I mean? It’s different. Now, I’m second guessing it or I’m like, “Well,” but I’m still at the place where it is flattering to some people or definitely to cis gay men, I’ll be like thirsty towards them and they’ll be like, “Mm-hmm.” They like it now, but I don’t know.

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: It’s interesting.

Drew: No, it’s real. That’s definitely played a big part… I think I still have leftover stuff from like… and it all intersects with trans feelings and shame around all that.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: When I was like… I thought it was a guy, I was so timid because I didn’t want to be a creepy guy.

Gaby: Right.

Drew: I didn’t want to be like that kind of guy. Something we talk about on this podcast so much is encouraging people to be forward and to talk. Literally, the title of the podcast. That’s something that we’re doing because it’s something that I still struggle with.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: It’s not because like oh, I’m an expert. And we’ve talked about this before, but I had to make the decision of like, “Oh, I’m never going to date anyone. I’m never going to have anything I want. I’m never going to be with anyone I want if I don’t get over myself and take some risks and get less rejection sensitive and get less…” It wasn’t even about the rejection itself, but about the idea of being a creepy trans woman.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Or previously, a creepy man, but it is so interesting. I get why it’s gendered in the sense that cis men cause a lot of the harm…

Gaby: Right.

Drew: …and sexual violence and et cetera, et cetera, but it also is this thing where like I don’t think the solution is for a level of shame. It’s more about like consent.

Gaby: No.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Being like, “Okay, how well do I know this person I’m talking to?” It’s all just judgment calls and it’s all just people having to like, I don’t know, use some critical thinking and actually go case by case and try to be like, “Okay, would this person I know be okay with me being a little bit lewd? Yes or no or I don’t know.” If I don’t know, maybe it’s… Tone it down a little.

Gaby: No. Here’s the thing is that I’m infantilized right now. I’m two months on T. This is what I’m saying, is I’m two months on T, so I can be so forward to a cis gay guy and they’re like, “Oh, cutie.”

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: Or the queer women in my life are like, “Ahahah.” Or even the straight women. The straight women are like “Ahahah,” but it’s like, they think of me as like, I’m like a little brother.

Drew: Right.

Gaby: I’m like Roger from Tia and Tamera. They’re like, “Aw,” but also like, “Go home.”

Christina: “Isn’t it past your bad time now?”

Gaby: “Yeah, go home, Roger!” That’s my energy right now. I don’t know. When you’re talking about rejection sensitivity, I also throw things at the wall. I also maybe have no concept of looking transmasculine now. I, still, if I meet a cis guy or I have like a cis guy I used to hook up with, I’ll be like, “Hey, is that still on the table?” I’m very much like, “Is this a date?”

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: I’m thinking now about how I wasn’t like, “Hey, are you queer now with these guys?” I’m just like, “Do you want to still fuck?”

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: I don’t ask like, “What’s your identity? Do you have any problems here?”

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: Nothing like that.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Sometimes that’s the question you want to ask. It’s not like, “Let’s talk about your identity.” It’s like, “Do you still want to smash?”

Gaby: Yeah. I don’t have time. It’s not occurring to me to be like, “What’s your”… The cis guy, that is dead to me now, is…

Christina: May he rest.

Gaby: Yeah, may he rest. It was not anything to do with… He was like, “I’m attracted to you regardless of gender. I don’t know what I am. I don’t care.” I think that’s true, but the reason that… I thought this is going to end because I’m on T, but what happened is, he had a polyamory freak out. I was like, “Oh, this isn’t even about…” The reason this ends isn’t because I went on testosterone and now I look like a guy. The reason this is ending is because you, all of a sudden, have decided polyamory is immoral. Fascinating.

Drew: Well, as a gender nonconforming trans person, I also know that sort of how someone identifies, you feel it more than you can hear it, right? I’ve had sex with people who don’t really know how they identify and maybe, don’t even know what gender they’re reading upon me, but just in our sexual interactions, I feel very affirmed and I feel very good with them.

Gaby: Yeah. Yeah.

Drew: It feels like they’re seeing me and seeing me as a person and seeing me as my gender. I’ve had sex with people who are proudly bisexual in the queer community.

Gaby: Right.

Drew: Love all genders and are very open about that and then treat me like a guy and it feels awful.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: It doesn’t matter, necessarily…

Christina: Matter.

Drew: …how. It’s like what someone… Not that it doesn’t matter what someone is saying, but I think you feel it and that’s more important.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: I think it would bother me if someone was like, “I would never be with a woman” and then is hooking up with me. That would feel weird.

Christina: Right.

Drew: But if someone is just like, “I don’t know,” then I’m like, “Okay, well, I know how it feels.”

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: Or it’s not my business. If you are still interested in fucking me, I’m not going to sit there and do a checklist and be like, “Are you queer?”

Drew: Right.

Gaby: Whatever.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: You are in my mind, but sure. Live your life.

Christina: Yeah. I’m perceiving you in a way that works for me. You’re perceiving whatever you’re doing in your way. That, sometimes, is enough.

Gaby: I think if I get top surgery, it’s going to change immensely. That’s my fear. Is that once I get top surgery, these guys are going to be like, “Wait a minute.”

Christina: “Hold on. You took the titties away.”

Gaby: Right. That’s what I think.

Christina: “What’s going on?”

Gaby: “Wait a minute, you have full facial hair and shh, but these are giving me an out.” When I don’t have them, I’m curious what they’re going to think.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: Doesn’t matter. I’ll probably still just be doing T4T anyway.

Drew: Well, we are going to have to have you back.

Christina: We’ll just have continual check-ins.

Gaby: Wait, Is This a Date: “Post-Titties.”

Christina: Yeah. Post-Titties edition.

Drew: Okay. Let’s move to our last segment, which I realized I didn’t prepare you for, but I think you should be able to. We always have a crush corner…

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: … which is like a person in pop culture that we’re crushing on and that is an excuse to talk about something or you can just to talk about a person. It can also be an actual person we know, but if you can think of someone while we say our crushes, then we’ll double back to you.

Gaby: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drew: Okay. Because this is our dating men episode and because Gaby is here, I have two male crushes because I just saw Road House for the first time and my crushes are Patrick Swayze and Jane Campion hater himself, Sam Elliot.

Christina: Sam Elliot.

Drew: Who was so hot back in the day. I had no idea. That movie is incredible. It’s like—

Gaby: I have a Road House tattoo. I have a Road—

Drew: Yeah.

Gaby: Where is it? I have a Road House tattoo.

Drew: It’s on there. Yeah. What kind of fucking friend am I that I didn’t see that. I was just like, “Yeah, I’ll see it.” I just was dismissive of it and then it’s an incredible movie. I won’t do my—

Gaby: I was trying to tell you.

Drew: I won’t give my whole essay about why it’s really a great movie.

Gaby: It’s about class. It’s about masculinity.

Drew: It’s about how violence is… Physical violence is okay when faced with social violence.

Gaby: Yes.

Drew: Which so few movies, especially big budget movies are about that.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: It’s brilliant. It’s bonkers and a really good time. Patrick Swayze does rip a throat out, but it’s great. I’m big fan. Patrick Swayze…

Gaby: Swayze.

Drew: …Sam Elliott, hot, hot, hot. Love both of them. Yeah.

Christina: Iconic.

Gaby: Swayze is my boy. I have a Swayze sleeve that I’m working on.

Christina: Swayze.

Drew: What would be your third one, if you got to—

Gaby: Okay. I’m thinking of watermelon for Dirty Dancing because, “I carry the watermelon.”

Christina: Gorgeous.

Gaby: Then I’m thinking, okay, then like a surfboard for Point Break.

Christina: Sure.

Gaby: I’m thinking maybe a strawberry for To Wong Foo because it’s a strawberry festival, but I don’t know. I’m still up in the air about the To Wong Foo one if anyone’s interested. Maybe a hat, because it’s to say something hat day. I’m not sure, but right now, I just have “pain don’t hurt” and a ghost. I got to get the rest.

Christina: Got to get the rest. That’s a gorgeous sleeve.

Gaby: Thank you. Then I’m going to try to do the other side, Kurt Russell. I’m a cis woman.

Christina: Yeah. Okay. Just going to—

Gaby: My two boys.

Christina: No comment on that one. Much like Drew, I was thinking that I should, in honor of the episode, have a dating men appropriate crush, but then I was like the other week said your crush was Jerry Orbach on a totally unrelated episode.

Drew: That’s true.

Christina: On this episode, I would like to say that my crush this week is Jenifer Lewis. We have been watching I Love That for You, which is a show that is pretty good. I feel like it’s 6% away from being truly great. I don’t really know what’s missing, but there is something missing. Boy, what it’s not missing is Jenifer Lewis being literally the most perfect woman on earth to be alive. She is so mean. She drinks so many martinis. She has so much sex with men at just like a drop of a hat and then has her butler give them a goodbye gift bag. I think it’s gorgeous. She sang “Feeling Good” in the last episode. I was like, “Yeah, of course. Why not sing “Feeling Good” if you’re Jenifer Lewis and you’re on a television show. You should go to a piano bar exclusively to do that.” I accept this as a plot. Thank you so much. She truly is the mother of Black Hollywood and I have never loved a woman more.

Gaby: I love her.

Christina: Jenifer Lewis.

Gaby: I love her.

Christina: She’s a perfect person.

Gaby: I love her.

Christina: Simply perfect. Yeah.

Gaby: Saw her at the GLAAD awards once. I think she touched my hand. I don’t know. I blacked out.

Christina: Yeah. I would die.

Gaby: Yeah, it was crazy. She was acting like she ran that place. I was like, “You do.”

Christina: You do. If she could run at any place and I’d be like, “Absolutely. She’s Jennifer Lewis.”

Gaby: She walked in and was like, “This is the Jenifer Lewis awards.”

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: I was like, “I believe you.”

Christina: True. That’s gay culture.

Gaby: Yeah. I was like, “Gay what? Who cares? Give her all the awards.”

Christina: Who cares. Give it to her.

Gaby: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. I’ll give you two.

Christina: Great. Gorgeous.

Gaby: Right now, I’m watching All Stars 7 Drag Race. Jaida Essence Hall, so fucking gorgeous.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: There was a challenge where she is dressed as a pig, a literal pig.

Drew: Oh my God.

Christina: Oh my God.

Drew: The hottest pig.

Gaby: She looks stunning. I would—

Christina: Truly like, “Do I have a pig fetish?”

Gaby: I would fuck that pig.

Christina: Like, “What’s happening?”

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: She’s so—

Drew: Her and Jinkx—

Gaby: Beautiful.

Drew: And Monet. Hottest pigs.

Gaby: Well, Jinkx is also very hot to me, but she is just stunning.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: I would love to look at her. I would love to fuck her as a pig. I could not believe and just her face… That’s her face? That’s her face.

Drew: Yeah, yeah. That’s her face.

Gaby: Good fucking Lord. She got the short end of the stick in terms of winning during the pandemic. Honestly, I don’t want her to win All Stars 7, because that’ll be Jinkx’s game, but I do. Wow. She’s really beautiful.

Drew: Yeah. Top four for sure.

Christina: Yeah.

Gaby: Top four.

Christina: Yeah, no doubt.

Gaby: I love Raja too. I’m very sexually attracted to Raja, but…

Drew: All of them.

Gaby: …extremely. I don’t care. Lip sync, standing still. I don’t give a fuck, but yeah, I would say my crush is Jaida as a pig.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Great.

Christina: I think that’s gorgeous.

Gaby: Yeah.

Drew: Thank you so much.

Gaby: You’re welcome.

Drew: Well, now is the time.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Do you want to tell the people where they can find you and your work and what you’re working on and the million things you’re working on?

Gaby: Oh Lord.

Christina: Promote yourself.

Gaby: I’m @gabyroad on Instagram. I have a podcast called, Just Between Us. I have a podcast called, Bad With Money. Just Between Us is, we just had Monet X Change on, speaking of, and she and I fell in love, no big deal. Then I have a million. I have a Bad With Money book. I have a graphic novel called, Bury the Lede. I have a million things going on. I have eBook out called, Stimulus Wrecks. I do a show on AMP at 8:00 AM on Wednesday mornings called, This Week in Gay, where I talk about gay stuff and spin gay tunes. I don’t know. I feel like I don’t do anything, but here we are.

Drew: That’s absurd that you feel that way because it also like—

Christina: I was literally just going to say, I forgot how truly booked and busy your ass is.

Gaby: Yeah.

Christina: My good Lord.

Drew: There’s also 14 different things that you’re not allowed to talk about because they’re in development.

Gaby: Yeah, and then some development stuff that’s very nice. A lot of it is gay. Well, I would say, it’s all gay.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: It’s all gay.

Gaby: I don’t know when this comes out, but if you want to see my short Grindr Baby, it’ll be on YouTube, but it’s also at Frameline festival and you can watch it on-

Drew: I think Frameline will have already.

Gaby: Okay.

Drew: Right. Right.

Gaby: Frameline passed, but you can see it on YouTube. It’s called, Grindr Baby.

Drew: Right. Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Wait Is This a Date? You can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Manya Dahr. This podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok, at draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter at C_GraceT and on Instagram at christina_gracet. You can find Autostraddle, of course, at Autostraddle.

Drew: You can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com, the reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are, at this very moment, hurriedly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this. On the case here, we don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): There have definitely been points in my life where if a reasonably attractive straight couple pulled like, “We saw you from across the bar and we really liked your vibe,” I would’ve done it just for the validation and experience. I don’t think I’m there anymore. They’d have to be actually attractive now. I think that’s growth.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 202: Boundaries

As far back as I can remember, I’ve always wanted to talk about sex. (cue “Rags to Riches”) According to my mom, I’d ask questions about sex from a very young age and when she told me to ask again when I was older, I’d ask again the next day saying, technically, I was older. Long before I started dating and having sex, sex and dating were the most interesting conversation topics to me. And they still are!

But as I’ve grown older I’ve also learned that some aspects of my personal life are better kept private. I was never crass — it’s just for myself I’ve learned that even if someone wants to hear about my life, it’s not always in my best interest to share. I’ve had to learn boundaries.

Now some people are the opposite. Some people have never been quick to share details of their personal lives. Even people who are actively dating and actively selfish like to keep that stuff to themselves. I’m fascinated by these people. Nothing makes me register how different people are quite like realizing deep into a friendship that I barely know anything about who someone is dating or fucking if I know they aren’t ace or aro.

One such friend is Autostraddle’s editor-in-chief Carmen Phillips. Now as we’ll discuss, Carmen is my boss here at Autostraddle so that explains some of her boundaries. But even outside our friendship, Carmen admits that she isn’t quick to share details from her personal life. Christina and I get into this with Carmen as we all examine that when it comes to boundaries our strengths are our weaknesses and our weaknesses are our strengths.

And before that we play our classic game “Fuck, U-Haul, Ghost” — but a special edition where Christina asks me about my favorite actors from Letterboxd.

SHOW NOTES

+ Raven-Symoné’s chaotic gay TikTok.

@ravensymone

#🌈 #wlw #truthoflife

♬ original sound – AB

+ Here’s my Letterboxd list, Actors Who Have “It”.

+ We don’t have a lot of show notes today so here’s my favorite movie from every actor Christina asked me about.

Angela Bassett – Malcolm X
Joan Crawford – Johnny Guitar
Bette Davis – The Little Foxes
Kirsten Dunst – Marie Antoinette
Jane Fonda – They Shoot Horses, Don’t They?
Anne Hathaway – Rachel Getting Married
Katharine Hepburn – Bringing Up Baby
Anna Paquin – Margaret
Susan Sarandon – Thelma and Louise

+ You can currently get the new Criterion edition of Mississippi Masala half-off at Barnes & Noble.

+ Also while I can’t in good conscience suggest the movie 3 AM, I do recommend watching the first five minutes when Sarita Choudhury is being a hot mean mommi boss.

Christina: Honestly, if I know our readers and listeners, they’re going to say, “Yes, we too understand social anxiety.” I think you’re in good company here in this.

Carmen: It’s in the queer person starter kit. It’s right there.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? Is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the singular question, Wait, is this a date? Which is to say it’s about dating and being gay and stuff that we like, right?

Drew: Yeah. Wow. I think we did that really good for this being our second episode back, it felt like we’ve been recording episodes nonstop for a few years and really in a rhythm, really in a rhythm, really going.

Christina: Yeah. They call me the Ira Glass of gay podcasting.

Drew: I think they should.

Christina: I don’t know, imagine.

Drew: Hey, hey Christina. You’re the Ira Glass of gay podcasting. Now someone said it, people are saying it.

Christina: People are saying it. I was going to try to do an Ira Glass impression, then I said, “Why do that to yourself, to anybody?”

Drew: As your friend, I’m going to have you do that off-recording first, and then we can bring it for next episode if we realize you can do it well.

Christina: I already can tell you I don’t have it. I do not have that impression in the bag, but hey, I can—.

Drew: Maybe by the end of the season. End of the season? Yeah. Okay. Let’s say who we are. I’m Drew Gregory, I am a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker. I’m queer and I’m a trans woman.

Christina: I love how always there’s a light pause between I’m queer, it’s like is it today? Is it coming out today?

Drew: I really know that I’m a writer for Autostraddle and I’m a filmmaker, those identities super solid. Filmmaker, years and years and years, Autostraddle, also coming up on years and years and years. I’ve been a staff member for Autostraddle for longer than three years, which is a little bit wild. I’m not even close to one of the newbies anymore. I’m the opposite of a newbie.

Christina: You’re very ancient and wizened.

Drew: But then when it comes to gender and sexuality labels, yeah, those things are… Who knows?

Christina: Well, let’s see what I’ve got. I’m Christina Tucker, I’m also a writer at Autostraddle, a writer for other places as well, a podcaster and always some kind of gay lesbian type who’s around here making trouble and putting highlighter on. I guess that’s what I do in a day to day experience. We’re going to play a game today, Drew.

Drew: Oh, I love games.

Christina: I love introing it, like we don’t always play a game. But in honor of season 2, I wanted to bring us back to our classic “Fuck, U-Haul, Ghost.” And I wanted to do something fun. So I went through your Letterboxd and I, first of all, would like to say congrats to your Letterboxd for being really, gorgeously organized. A lot of different categories, I have a lot to play with.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: So I am doing three rounds of fuck, U-Haul, ghost, from your list of actors who have It.

Drew: Ooh, great.

Christina: I was going to bring up your description and actually read verbatim what your description of actors who have It. And then I was like but I could just ask Drew to tell us herself what she just means by actors who have It.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t remember what I wrote on Letterboxd, but I was just thinking about how there are… I think it actually, this is going to be controversial because I know people disagree with me on one of these people, but I went to see The Lost City and was very much like oh Channing Tatum has it. And despite some great, great roles in her filmography, I don’t think Sandra Bullock has it. And it doesn’t mean that she’s not good, it doesn’t mean… I was just like actors who I could watch do anything who just have that spark that I just want to stare at. And there are actors who have given some of my favorite performances ever, who I also don’t feel that way about, like Cate Blanchett. I think I maybe even say this in the Letterboxd description.

Christina: You say this in Letterboxd. Yeah.

Drew: Because I want to clarify that like Cate Blanchett’s incredible and in so many of my favorite movies, but she doesn’t have that quality where I would watch her do anything. So yeah. That’s my spiel.

Christina: All right. That’s a great spiel. All right. So we have, the first category is what I’m calling classic. We have Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, Katharine Hepburn.

Drew: I mean, I’m obviously U-Hauling with Katharine Hepburn.

Christina: You have to, you kind of have to.

Drew: That’s no question. No offense to the feud, but Katharine Hepburn is my U-Haul, I’d anything with Katharine Hepburn.

Christina: I just love no offense to the feud.

Drew: And then… God, now I feel like I have to pick though, because—

Christina: Well you definitively do is why you feel that way. Yeah.

Drew: I’m a big fan of Joan Crawford’s and Bette Davis’. I am going to fuck Joan Crawford.

Christina: That feels like the right choice

Drew: Because of Johnny Guitar, almost exclusively because of Johnny Guitar. I mean, there’s a lot of other movies, but Johnny Guitar is the one that I have to, that’s swaying my opinion. But then I think of Little Foxes. No, I’m gonna— Joan Crawford.

Christina: The fun thing about this game is that no matter who I give you, there’s always this incredibly serious reflection. You always feel kind of bad as if these women are going to come and yell at you, which in fairness, I would be terrified of Joan Crawford coming to yell at me from beyond.

Drew: I don’t know. I just got a little aroused thinking about that.

Christina: Well, yeah. Terrified and aroused go hand in hand, I find quite often. All right, now we have Girlies TM category, Kiki Dunst, Anne Hathaway, and Anna Paquin.

Drew: Once again, the U-Haul is easy for me. Kirsten Dunst, U-Haul easy.

Christina: Yep. That tracks.

Drew: One of the best filmographies, I think, of any contemporary actor.

Christina: Yeah. Kind of just straight bangers.

Drew: Just so good. And such variety. And also whenever she talks about her relationship with Jesse Plemons, it’s so sweet and that just sounds lovely. It sounds lovely to be in a relationship with Kirsten Dunst. Anne Hathaway and Anna Paquin. See, I would think that Anna Paquin makes more sense to be someone you fuck than Anne Hathaway.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: But I am going to go with Anne Hathaway.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: I think it’s just the years of theater and having crushes on fellow theater kids that make me so attracted to Anne Hathaway, but I am very attracted to Anne Hathaway. I’m very attracted to Anna Paquin, but I’m going to go with Anne Hathaway.

Christina: I mean, Ann Hathaway literally looks like ding, dang, snow white. I get it. It’s kind of bonkers, there’s a whole deal she’s got going on there. All right. And now we’re doing what I’m calling Legends Only category. Angela Bassett, Jane Fonda, Susan Sarandon.

Drew: Oh, that’s so hard. Oh my God. That’s so hard.

Christina: This one is really hard. And legends are hard, it’s hard to fuck with legends or to ghost them or to U-Haul with them.

Drew: Yeah. It’s hard and it’s really tough. I can’t ghost any of them, but…

Christina: Just for the listeners, Drew has entered a space of thoughtful prayer and reflection. What will she choose next? She’s making a face like I’m stabbing her personally, very slowly.

Drew: I just, my first thought was you have to U-Haul with Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda has been, maybe even longer than Katherine Hepburn, been my lifelong crush. I love Jane Fonda so much. It is complicated with the fact that, I mean, I think Jane Fonda is maybe 10 years older than… I mean, I know we said Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, so clearly we’re not going with present day people, I’m assuming.

Christina: We are not.

Drew: So, okay. Because I was going to be like, “I have some limit of the age gap situation. And I do think that Jane Fonda is maybe a little old.” I think Angela Bassett and Susan Sarandon I would. I mean, I would also Jane Fonda for the story and just to hang out with Jane Fonda, but…

Christina: Realistically, she is in a very different age range.

Drew: Yeah. But I can’t ghost Jane Fonda. Can I?

Christina: Well, I mean, I can’t answer that question. I wouldn’t personally.

Drew: Okay. I’m going to present to you my two options that I’m stuck between. I do think I have to fuck Susan Sarandon. I think I can’t not fuck Susan Sarandon and I just can’t decide if I want to U-Haul with Jane Fonda or Angela Bassett. I think it does depend on the era too, right? Because Jane Fonda in Radical French politics era is both very attractive to me, but also I don’t want to have to hang out on the set of a Jean-Luc Godard leftist movie. That is not fun for me. So, there are some caveats there. This is what I’m saying, is that I can’t ghost either of them. I can’t do it. Not that they would know, but I genuinely can’t.

Christina: No. I think that is the correct answer because also my gut also said, “You have to fuck Susan Sarandon.” Something about that energy just says that she’s crazy in bed. I don’t know what it is, couldn’t tell you. I just look at that woman and I say she’s nuts in the sack. And I love that.

Drew: Also she has great politics too. I think this is great. It’s not just legend. What makes a legend to me, and maybe to you as well, or at least you know it would make a legend to me and you’ve made this game for me, is that not only are all of these women some of the most attractive women to ever live and also the most talented and have incredible filmographies, but they’re also politically sound.

Christina: Yes. That is why I picked them. Because I do know you.

Drew: I mean, I shouldn’t say that, because someone’s going to comment, “Well, did you know that in 1995, blah, blah blah said, blah, blah, blah.” And I’m sure they’ve said bad things because they’re famous.

Christina: They’re human people. Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Also Susan Sarandon was in that bad trans movie with the Elle Fanning playing a trans boy. So we know we’ve all made mistakes. But overall a great trio. I would love to get brunch with the three of them, would love to hang out with any of them, would love to U-Haul or fuck any of them.

Christina: I think that makes total sense, and I do think I set you up in a trick way that would say that you couldn’t actually answer that final one with the parameters of the game. You can’t ghost any of those women. You just can’t.

Drew: No that’d be absurd.

Christina: It’s against the law.

Drew: They could ghost me. I’d be honored.

Christina: Oh God, it would be… To get a read receipt from Angela Bassett, I would save it for the rest of my life. Are you kidding me? I think it’s time we dive into the meat of this here ep.

Drew: Our topic this week is boundaries and we have a very special guest who we are going to let introduce herself.

Carmen: Hi everyone. I am Carmen Phillips, I am the editor-in-chief of Autostraddle. I identify as queer and Black and Puerto Rican and I guess that’s it. Did I cover all the bases?

Christina: That’s up to you only. You can say what all the bases are in many ways.

Carmen: I mean that is very fair.

Christina: Yeah. We’re doing boundaries today. So if it felt good to you, then it felt good to us.

Carmen: True enough. Okay. Those feel like good boundaries for me today.

Christina: Of course.

Drew: Great. Well, starting with season one, we wanted to have you on to talk about this because I consider you a close friend, but I also know less about your dating and romantic life than any of my other close friends. And I think some of that is because you are my friend and you are also though… I don’t know. Would you say sort of my boss or just my boss? Probably just my boss.

Carmen: I’d say I was your boss.

Drew: Great. Yeah. As Autostraddle moves into a better boundary organization, I think you are objectively my boss. And so maybe that’s part of it. I also do think you are just someone who I’m impressed with in the way that you manage to be a writer and a writer who writes personally and brings yourself into all your writing in a way that I really respect and look up to. But also you have very good boundaries in your work, I feel. I feel like you’re very thoughtful about what you include and what you don’t include. So it was so obvious I wanted to learn from you. I wanted to bring you on… Some of these are so we can roast people. This one, I want to just learn from your wisdom.

Carmen: I mean, part of that is just social anxiety. And so right now for our listeners, just so you know, I’m sweating through this t-shirt. We’re doing great here. A lot of social anxiety, which I am conquering today for this podcast, for y’all.

Christina: We’re honored.

Drew: I really appreciate that.

Christina: We really do. We really do.

Carmen: I just want to let the readers know where I am so that later they’re not like, “What the hell, Carmen?”

Christina: I think they’re going to appreciate it. Honestly, if I know our readers and listeners, they’re going to say, “Yes, we too understand social anxiety.” I think you’re in good company here in this.

Carmen: It’s in the queer person starter kit. It’s right there.

Christina: Just be a little nervous, just be a touch nervous.

Carmen: It’s how it works. Like any good first date… Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? I think, yeah. I think, especially for me thinking, Carmen, especially about your writing, because I know I don’t write a ton of personal essays period for Autostraddle either, but when I do deign to do the personal essay, I kind of just vibe and I never really think about, what do I want to include? What don’t I want to include? Certainly not in what boundaries do I have about saying things on the internet. I think anyone who’s familiar with my Twitter feed would know I have, what’s the word? Oh, almost none.

So I think it is really amazing to me that a person can be so good at writing and so good at being online professionally and also, I don’t know, have a soupçon of couth. I think that’s incredible. How do you do it?

Carmen: Well, thank you. That is a great question. I do think part of it is because before I became a writer on the internet, I was a college professor.

Christina: That’ll do it.

Carmen: Yeah. I was a grad student with the intention of becoming a full-time professor. But I did teach at the college level for five years before I started here and I think there is a good… This is a very boring answer. I’m sorry. I should have made it sexier. But very practically, there is a part of you when you spend so much of your time in front of people and you want to connect to them every day, giving your little mini Ted Talks, but you also don’t want to be messy in front of your students, I think it gave me a sense of building a public Carmen.

And public Carmen is very different from whoever I’m dating or what I’m doing in my personal life. And so I do think I just kind of converted that skillset. I do think I could be messier online. I think I would probably be a little bit further if I was messy online, but then that’s when the social anxiety part kicks in. But yeah, I do think part of it is just having a sense of what part of myself feels okay having however many thousands of people reading it or following along and what parts of myself don’t and generally speaking, who I’m dating, what I’m doing, is definitely not usually a part of that line. And so that just makes it really easy. I think when I very first started at Autostraddle as a writer before I was even an editor, I did two sex pieces and then I was like, “I do not love this. I do not love how this feels.” And then I never did it again. So I do think that is part of it.

But as it relates to friendships, I think I’ve always been really clear about who I’m letting into which places, which is, to be fair, I think a strength as much as it’s a weakness. I don’t feel like that— It’s funny when you guys were like, “I want you to come on Wait, Is This A Date?” And I was like, “Whaaat?” You were like, “To talk about boundaries.” And I was like, “Oh yeah, that’s my brand. That sounds great.”

Christina: Everybody’s got a brand at the end of the day.

Carmen: Yeah. And that is definitely mine. But I’m not sure that it’s always a great brand. My queer family, like my best friends… I always joke, I was like, “You will never meet who I’m dating unless I’m marrying them.” That is a joke that I’ve now been saying for five years, so I might be bringing it to truth. But I was like, “By the time you meet whomever I am dating, by the time I bring them to family dinner or out on an outing, you can best believe that I plan on marrying this person.” Because the public face fall of I brought this person into my closest life around my closest people and then we did not work out, it makes the thing in me that’s a type A like go into hyperdrive.

Christina: Yeah.

Carmen: Fear of failure. This is really dark y’all, I’m sorry. I meant to make this—

Christina: I am the same. All of us just trying to communicate that we are the same.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I am absolutely the same. I do not really… Well, famously I don’t date. So haha. But when I do, the idea of going a second date to meeting up with friends for drinks, I don’t know anything about you by date two, why are we bringing my friends into this?

Carmen: Absolutely not.

Christina: Absolutely. No.

Drew: Yeah, I’m so open about hookups I have, or writing about my sex life, but I agree with you as far as I have to really be pretty sure about someone. I’m honestly impressed by people who will be like, “Oh yeah, this is my girlfriend.” And we’ll be like, “Didn’t you have a different girlfriend a month ago?” And they don’t care. And they’re like, “Yeah. And then we broke up and now this is my girlfriend now.” And I’m just like, “Okay.” And I’m not judging them, but I would judge myself. So I’m like, “Why would I judge myself?” But I am very cautious about that. But it’s a good sort of metric for me because I’m like, “Oh, if I want to introduce someone to my friends, then that’s a sign that I really like this person. Yes.”

Carmen: Yeah. And I do think it’s funny when you said that, because I was like, I wonder if I was ever really serious about someone, I do think I would feel more comfortable soft launching them on my Instagram than I would bringing them to dinner. If I’m imagining. You know what I mean? I’m like, okay. And by soft launch, I mean, you might see the back of this person’s head or our legs on a couch. I would feel much more comfortable bringing this person into that version of my life than I would introducing them to my friends.

Christina: Yes.

Carmen: Just probably something for me to unpack one day.

Christina: Well yeah, I think at some point everything that we discuss on this podcast is something for me to unpack at a later date.

Carmen: It’s hard.

Christina: It is hard. I do think, Drew, that point of like I wouldn’t judge somebody who did that, who did like the here’s a girlfriend, a month later here’s a different girlfriend. I’m not judging that person, but I absolutely would judge myself about it.

Carmen: Oh yeah.

Christina: In a way that I’m like, well, how much of this is actually about like I don’t want to bring this person around my friends or… How much does it actually have to do with my friends and the spaces I keep and how much does it actually just have to do with my own perception of myself and how I feel about myself succeeding and failing at relationships, whatever? Which is troubling.

Carmen: Yeah. That’s why I originally started by being like it sends that part of me that’s type A into hyperdrive. A lot of my friends have had multiple partners and sometimes they’re dating multiple people at the same time, sometimes it’s a revolving door of partners. Everyone has their own special version of their dating life. And that’s great. But I think I cannot imagine the idea like it would for me feel like a failure to be like, “Oh, here’s this person I was dating. It did not work out.”

And again, I am not endorsing this as a positive. I know we’re like, “Oh, boundaries are Carmen’s brand.” Fun fact is I think often our strength is our weakness. So sure. I think it’s a strength that I can manage on some level to have a public persona — as much as, like, Autostraddle is a public persona — and keep things to myself. I also am almost a hundred percent positive it’s a weakness that I feel such a need to keep the things that are personal to me that walled off. But I do think that there is something about that type A feeling of being like, oh, if I introduce you publicly and then this doesn’t work out, then I have fallen on my face publicly. And that is so much harder for me to imagine.

Issa Rae of all people was once like, “Don’t let…” I mean, this is different because it’s Issa, but Issa was like, “I will never let a man be the reason that I embarrass myself.” Issa was like, “I can embarrass myself every day, I don’t need a man to do that.” Update some pronouns there, but I do think that very much so speaks to my mindset where there are so many ways, and so many days, that I mortify myself. I do not need to bring this in there, which again, ironic to be on a dating podcast talking about! But I do think like there is a sense of me that the idea of it freaks me out very much.

Drew: When you are starting to date someone new and have all of those excitable crush feelings, what do you do with them? Because I think I’m good at preventing friends from meeting someone until I’m ready, but the minute I match with someone on a dating app and I’m excited about them, I’m texting three friends to be like, “I just matched with the hottest person ever.”

Christina: Can confirm.

Drew: I have to share that part, right? So what do you do?

Carmen: Well, it’s funny you say that. Okay. So I’ll tell a story. So this past December? Yeah, it was December because my friends and I do an annual kind of a big family dinner right before Christmas that we call holigays. And we travel. We used to all live in New York together. So everybody kind of descends back onto the city and we get hotel rooms and we spend the weekend together, we eat a big fancy dinner. Kind of like a Christmas for your chosen family. And this year I happened to be kind of meeting up with someone who I had been long distance dating or talking to for a while.

We had a really great night and then the next day was dinner and I could not stop talking about this person. And that was very unusual for me. So my friends all took notice right away and they were like, “Who the hell’s this girl? What is happening?”

And we did not work out. And so that was kind of a recent thing where I was like, “And this is why I don’t introduce people.” But I do think that was so rare for me, and part of it was because I went from this one part that was so private right into this other space. And so I had no stop in between. Usually if I’m beginning to date someone, those are kind of feelings that I will enjoy by myself on the ride home in a car and kind of keep it private between me and that person. I don’t always feel that same urge to be like, “Oh, let me text.” But in this situation, because I was going from kind of one part where my heart was kind of wide open into another part where my heart was wide open, I found such blurriness! And I don’t know how people live like that, I am not built for that kind of vulnerability. I am just not. So I do think that would be an example of when I just absolutely couldn’t hold it, but most times, yeah, I don’t know. I crush a little and then I vibe out. I’m just like, okay, I can’t deal with that. That was fun. That’s for me and this person and my phone.

Christina: Yeah. I’m going to cosign that.

Drew: I have a question. So when this didn’t work out after you’d shared it with your friends and theoretically this fear came true, did it make you feel like, oh, this wasn’t so bad. My friends aren’t judging me. They might be a little disappointed for me, but they’re not like, “Oh wow. You’re a loser.” Or was it like…. Did it change at all your relationship to that?

Carmen: Man, this podcast is like therapy.

Christina: Thank you.

Carmen: No and yes. Okay. So the part that is true is, no, they did not care because they’re my friends and they love me. And they were like, “Oh, that sucks that you and this person didn’t work out and we’re sorry. And would you like a hug?” And then we all moved on. So in that way, sure, my fear did not come true. But internally it did, do you know what I mean? Internally I was like, oh, this is exactly what I never want to have to do. I internally do not want to have to have these conversations or like wrap up this part of my life.

Whereas I mean, a part of it is a little bit like Christina, I famously don’t get into very many deep relationships. And this person I dated for probably six-ish months. And so that is very different. For me that was long term. I was like, oh wow, look at me growing up over here. And they bled into other parts. I would start at work being like, “oh, I had a date last night, this person I was dating, this is a story that happened,” and it would come up in workplace conversations. And that was again, just really different for me. I don’t know that I loved it. To be honest with you.

Drew: Why?

Carmen: I mean, I am sure it was a more kind of evolved approach to dating and definitely more like how everyone else handles it. I am not convinced that I personally loved it, but I also don’t love vulnerability. So there is that.

Christina: I mean, I think about that with myself a lot, right? I love a boundary. I’m famously obsessed with a boundary. And I often have the sneaking suspicion that what I love about a boundary is that it creates some pretty safe ways for me not to have to be vulnerable almost ever if I do it right. If I’m doing it right, it creates some pretty good safeguards in place for me to be like, “Wow. Nope, I simply don’t have to do that. There’s no feeling that needs to be shared here. We can simply be moving on.” And I know Drew, that you love a boundary. But you also love a feeling and you’re good at being vulnerable. So you’re better at it than me. So kind of walk me through how you do what you do with that voodoo that you do.

Drew: I mean, I think I’m excellent at the sort of defense mechanism where I talk about things and I overshare so no one asks questions about the things I don’t want to be asked about. And people don’t clock that I’m not necessarily being vulnerable in certain ways or showing emotions in certain ways. So I don’t think I’m all knowing, but—

Christina: Well, I do.

Drew: Well, thank you. I mean, I think that I’m very specific about who I talk to about different things and I try to… And that’s something I’ve had to learn because I come from a, I don’t know if this is culturally specific, but it feels a little culturally specific that, I think at least in my Jewish family, there aren’t a lot of boundaries and it’s a lot of sharing and a lot of… It’s interesting to me because it’s not like… No one in my family is, I’m not someone who’s like, “Oh, my mom’s my best friend. My sister’s my best friend.” They’re my family members and I love them and we have family relationships. But there’s nothing really off limits and I think even when I was a kid, just the things that were talked about were pretty unboundaried for better or worse. And I think over time I had to learn that talking to my parents about my dating life — this was even before I transitioned and was gay dating — it wasn’t a helpful thing. And even if I felt the urge, especially if something went wrong, I was sad about something and my parents especially my mom was there and I could talk to her, being like hmm no I need to learn to set that boundary.

And similarly with friends being like… I know that I have friends who I can talk to about things and I won’t feel judged and I will probably be lightly roasted in ways that feel good, and those are the people who I choose to share things with. And sometimes it’s hard. If I’m seeing a different friend who I’m not as close with or I’m at a party and I feel the urge to entertain and be storyteller and there’s a story and then I’m like, “I want to tell this because it’s a…” And I’ve had to work on getting better boundaries as far as being like, “What does it feel like when you tell these individuals this thing? Does it feel good? Does it not feel good?” And sort of trial and error, figuring that out. And I do think writing helps with that because my writing is so personal and I would feel sometimes I’d write something and I’d be like, “This didn’t feel good.” Sometimes it’s vulnerable and scary, but it ultimately feels rewarding and sometimes it really doesn’t and I’ve had to sort of learn how to find that balance. And I think I’m still finding that. But I have a bit of a performer, people pleaser, something streak where I want to say the most interesting things. And oftentimes the most interesting things are the most private. And so I want to do that. And I’ve had to sort of—

Christina: Tamp down that urge?

Drew: Resist that impulse. Yeah.

Carmen: I do think though, you said something that is one of like my tricks too, is I find that if you fill space or if I fill space with something else where I am directing the conversation, then I get to choose what parts I am not talking about. And that is, I mean, one of my go-to tricks, is if you talk about everything you actually are talking about nothing, which is a go-to of mine a lot. And I do wonder though for me, because dating has always been something I kept really close to the chest, is that always really useful? There are ways, and I would be really curious Drew to ask you this, because you do write about dating and talk about dating a lot, where do you find the boundary between, okay, “this is something from the person I’m dating that I am willing to share” and “this is something with the person that I’m dating, that it does not fit on this? I can’t do this?”

I always find that curious because my answer is just to share nothing, right? I’m like, “Oh, I don’t ever have to make this decision. I don’t have to be selective about it. The door is closed.” Whereas for someone like you, you’re always self-selecting and how do you do that? Does that get exhausting? How do you figure out what parts of yourself to be messy and vulnerable either with your friendships or on a public platform and what parts of yourself and a relationship do you leave just for you and your partner?

Drew: The way I think about it is… Obviously I don’t rank my relationship. I’m not that much of a Capricorn. But my current romantic relationship is serious enough that there are things between us that I wouldn’t share with even my friends, because my relationship with my partner that’s the relationship. And just the same way I have relationships with my friends. And those are the relationship. Whereas if I have a hookup, not that I’m not seeing the hookup as a full person who has their own life and their own friends and will tell the story their own way, but that connection pales in comparison to my friendship. So I’m going to tell them. And honestly, a lot of, this is kind of sound really corny, but a lot of those hookups pale in comparison to my relationship with my writing. And so that’s also part of it, whereas—

Christina: Woo baby, that was gorgeous.

Carmen: The most Drew answer.

Drew: And so it’s sort of always a judgment on that. And I would say that the more serious… That sounds awful, because then it’s like if someone I wrote a detailed essay about is like, “Oh, so you didn’t care about me?” It’s not totally one to one, but I do think that I’m way more likely to write a detailed essay about a one night stand than I am about a relationship. And that’s something that being in a serious relationship now I’m really having to navigate and being like, she has her own boundaries. And it becomes a lot more, I mean, I care about the boundaries of anyone I interact with, but we’re going to sometimes betray other people’s boundaries in the sense that I know there are people who I’ve written about who wish that I hadn’t, we can have a whole conversation about the ethics of writing. And I think about that question a lot and I really try to be thoughtful about it, but I still, for some people, made the wrong decisions and sometimes I agree with them and sometimes I sort of stand by what I did.

But I care about my partner to an extent that I will respect her boundaries fully. And so there’s nothing that I would… If anything bothered her, I wouldn’t want to share it. And any mention of her, I run it by her, not because she’s even asked me to do that, but just because it’s not a relationship that I’m willing to sacrifice for my writing or for my desire to have a fun and flirty persona on the internet. So that’s just sort of on a scale of seriousness. And also what I would share in jokey round table on Autostraddle versus what I would share in a deep essay, again, how much I care about that writing changes. There are long form essays that I’ve written where I’ve crossed certain personal boundaries or shared things that feel really special to me with another person and I’m letting now, who knows how many readers into that. And I am making the choice that I care about that piece enough to do that and still being selective about details. That’s also something I’ve learned, is that you can also tell an evocative story without including all the details. And that’s been a real three and a half year long, maybe longer before Autostraddle, learning experience within my writing of being like, sharing everything is not the same as using a story fully.

Christina: Yeah. I remember even in some of the early conversations Drew that you and I had in our 20,000 voice memos a day moments wherein you were like, “But if I don’t share all the details, is this the truth? And then what does that mean?” Which I always find very fascinating, about the way that you approach both, like you’re sharing with details and writing right? Because it’s if it doesn’t have this truthiness, if I can borrow a word from Stephen Colbert, I guess, or whatever, that you’re kind of, “Well then is it a fraud? Am I doing fraudulent work? What is journalism?” It’s a very Carrie Bradshaw energy that sometimes happens to you. But I think in the last year, six months, whatever, you have really figured out that line for yourself, which I imagine is quite helpful.

Carmen: I think the idea of, “If I don’t tell all the details, is that the truth?” Is mind blowing to me because I can’t approach anything that way. I don’t share details about anything. Anytime I’m telling a story, I’ve already taken out probably 30% of it. And so it’s really fascinating to think about how different people just negotiate, even friendship boundaries, like you and Christina are sending voice memos to each other, right? That is not a writing relationship. That’s y’all hanging out. So how do we even negotiate those spaces? I just think is a really fascinating concept.

Christina: Yeah. And I was also just thinking about, obviously boundaries come up hugely with us in dating and how we share dating. But I feel a thing that comes up all the time is, whomst among my friends has boundaries and who doesn’t? And how that affects our relationships and kind of the relationships in our circle, the kind of ripples of that boundary to boundariless space affects every interaction we have with people. And sometimes pisses people off and sometimes is fine with other people. And I always just find it fascinating when I meet someone and I’m like, “Oh, you do not have good boundaries. Interesting. That seems really hard. That seems like a really challenging way to live, this boundariless land. How?”

Carmen: I think though, that is also… Okay, so just to be fully frank about something, I do think about a lot as it relates to boundaries, and I wasn’t sure if I was going to tell this on the podcast, but I am, is the first relationship that I was ever in that was really serious was in college and it was kind of purposefully a secret. We did not tell people, even our friends. And that was about a lot of internalized homophobia on behalf of both myself and the person I was dating. But I do think that though I don’t necessarily carry that same shame, it did shift how I thought about approaching relationships because so much of that first relationship did happen in secret.

And the kind of flip of that I think is, even with oversharers, we’re always processing the last relationship we were in. We’re always still kind of being shaped by those first things that happened to us or the second or third and however we reacted to whatever bad things occurred. And I often wonder if lack of boundaries is just the flip side of that same coin. I am overly cautious. And also the first person I dated was 100% in secret. But I do think that I know for me that shifted so many things and those are a lot of habits that I’m still unlearning. I don’t know. We don’t need to tell everyone listening how long ago I was in college, but quite a few years later. I just always wonder if for oversharers, if that’s also a thing too. Do you know what I mean? Even for friends. I have friends who will tell me, I mean, absolutely every detail about every hookup down to sex things I never want to know about them. You know what I mean? And then they’ll be like, “Oh, pass the bacon.” And I’m like, “You just told me about where someone’s fist was last night. I don’t really feel just passing over bacon.” I also wonder for them, if that is also their own processing, do you know what I mean? In the same way that I’m deeply internal.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I can even say that for me, by nature of transness, I’ve had experiences where I’ve felt sort of kept secret, even just subtly, and I think that’s resulted in me wanting people to know about stuff and feeling sort of very tender around stuff. And that’s something that I’ve had to work on to be like, oh, it’s… having stuff you and your partner are deciding is private, isn’t the same as someone keeping you a secret because of their own shame or their own transphobia or their own whatever. But it definitely has impacted me and how I approach information.

And I think even in a lot of my sex writing, there was, I mean, I think I’ve even written about this in a sort of meta way, that there was this desire to give an impression of I’m not like those sad trans women you have stereotypes about, I’m one of the cool ones who’s off having random, crazy sex every week. And it wasn’t accurate, I was trying to manifest this lifestyle, to fight back against people’s assumptions about me and in the process was losing track of who I actually am, which is both someone who does sometimes have wild sexcapades and also a lot of times just has very strong crushes and stays home and watches movies thinking about them. I’m just lots of different things at once. And we lose our nuances and our humanity when we’re trying to prove things one way or the other, whether it’s by keeping it all internal and learning those lessons or making it all external to try to prove something.

Carmen: Wow.

Christina: That was a damn word, I have to say. I wish I had a glass of wine. I would raise one to you right here right now.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: That was really…

Carmen: I have a strawberry mojito in a mug.

Christina: Ooh! In a mug!

Drew: Oh, yum.

Christina: Love that.

Carmen: In my good luck Beyoncé mug. Because I told y’all, I was nervous.

Drew: For you and Christina… While I figure out my own boundaries… There’s nothing my close friends… obviously I don’t want people who I barely know to be volunteering, which happens because I write about sex, people who are literal strangers will be like, “Let me talk about fluids with you.” And I’m like, “Okay, let’s calm down.” But with my close friends, I want to hear every juicy detail.

Christina: Oh absolutely. Same.

Carmen: I don’t really, I mean, I think I’ve never gotten a choice on it. So I can’t say whether or not I prefer it. You know what I mean? I do think a part of being gay and having gay friendships, unless you are very specifically someone like me who processes very deeply internally and that does feel like kind of a unicorn — which is already a loaded phrase in gay community — but that does feel kind of like a unicorn. I do think generally people are like, “Let me tell you every flip every turn. Let me tell you where hands were, the color shape and size of the dildo. I want to share everything.” So yeah. I mean, I love it. I just never want to do it. I love hearing it. I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a choice. I don’t think anyone who’s ever been like, “Carmen, do you not want to hear this?” Before they started the story.

Christina: Carmen, do you consent to this story?

Carmen: Right. That’s never existed in any of my friendships.

Christina: Yeah. I think, as a similarly internal processor, once I have processed whatever I feel like I need to process about a hookup or whatever, I’m like, “Yeah, let’s talk about it. Let us discuss. This is what went down. This was weird, but I was into it? Tough to say.” I’m happy to have those conversations once I’ve taken the time to myself to find God, think about it, have a little moment of righteous prayer as I do, a very holy woman as I’m sure everyone knows. But yeah. And then that’s whatever, let’s talk about sex baby. Let’s actually do it.

Talking about sex is fun and sex is fun I think? it’s been a minute so.

Carmen: It is last time I checked.

I mean, I think for me too, and that goes back to I was so fascinated when Drew was like, “Well, if I don’t tell every detail, is it the truth?” I mean I love talking about sex in the abstract. I would prefer to never tell details about who I was doing the sex with. Do you know what I mean? That for me is usually where I would draw that boundary. I’m like, oh sure, we can talk about generally speaking sex I had or a hookup or even someone I dated for a couple weeks or a month or whatever. But I don’t usually like to get into details about a person. That is usually where my — haha theme of the episode — boundary comes into.

Drew: I was just thinking about how like the one time the past six months that Christina told me that she might have a crush on someone, I became so annoying about it and still am annoying about it. And I’m reflecting on this as I’m saying this, because I’m wondering if, for both of you because you don’t often talk about dating or at least not in detail, do you find having that boundary makes that boundary harder to lessen because of the reaction of people when you do bring up sex or dating or you are seeing someone or, oh my God, you even introduce someone to someone, because this doesn’t happen very often, all of a sudden your friends won’t let it go and so it makes you even more reluctant to do it?

Carmen: 100%. I mean the person who I was dating and I’m no longer dating, but who I opened up the episode talking about and I was at this kind of makeshift Christmas dinner with my friends and telling them about this person, one of my friends who was getting married was like, you can absolutely bring this person to the wedding. And I was like, “Whoa, buddy.” And for this friend, they were like, “Listen, you have never really talked about anyone you were seeing, you cannot stop talking about this person. You can bring this person to a whole wedding.” And I was like, “Maybe we don’t do that.” And I think that is very typical of what happens, right? When you finally share something. I think my Autostraddle friends are probably the only ones where that’s not true where I can say something and people just let it chill. But in my non-Autostraddle world, the minute you drop a detail, then everybody wants to know all of the details, right? Which I think, yeah, it keeps those boundaries up very firmly.

It’s part of why I started joking I won’t bring someone around till I’m going to marry them because I’m kind of a little sister in a crew of five or six. And I was like I cannot deal with that many quote unquote siblings, getting… I’m also an only child. This is just a lot for me to have all these people in my business. And for me, it is never really about the person I’m dating, but it is about all of my friends and having to manage and deal with all of their reactions or their questions or… Jesus even talking about it, my heart is starting to race. I do not. I don’t want it. I don’t want it at all.

Christina: I’m somewhere in between. Yes, I do absolutely have friends who I’m like, “Oh my God, you’re going to be a dog with a bone about this. I cannot drop this info in front of you.” But at the same time, I am also self aware enough to know that I do need a little bit of that energy in my life to kind of pull me out of some of these walls and tear boundaries. And I do think the people like Drew, all of my closest friends, who know me well enough to know when we have to push on that little button a little bit and when it’s time to back off of that, it’s a very delicate dance. I’m not jealous of anybody who has to fucking work with my annoying ass on that kind of shit. But there are, I would say for the most part, my closest friends know, when is it time to lightly roast Christina about this and when is it time to just leave her the hell alone and she’ll figure it out and come to us when the time is needed. But yeah, no, it can be just like, “Oh God, why did I say it out loud for the love of Christ? Why did I do that?”

Drew: I will say on the record that if I ever don’t walk that line correctly, you can always set a boundary and I will follow that boundary.

Christina: Well, and that’s the other thing, right? All of my good friends will if I’m like, “All right, enough.” They will say, “Okay.”

Carmen: Too much.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I think maybe we’ve nailed it.

Drew: I think we’ve covered a lot of boundaries. So I feel like I learned some things today.

Christina: I feel like I learned some more ways in which I am struggling. So, that’s always fun.

Carmen: Yeah. I don’t know if I learned today as much as I was like, “Wow, this is exposure. Okay, great.”

Christina: Reinforcing some things that I should jot down for future therapy use as ever. But that usually is what makes an episode of this podcast. It’s me saying that at some point.

Drew: That is true. Let’s move on to our next segment, which is crush corner.

Christina: Drew, I think it’s your turn to go first, because I went first last time.

Drew: My crush of the week is Sarita Choudhury.

Christina: Perfect.

Drew: I saw the new restoration of Mississippi Masala at the TIFF theater, because I’m in Toronto for the summer. And I’d seen the movie before, on a bootleg, like illegal, I mean, not illegal. I would never do anything illegal, a bootleg copy on my computer. It was still incredible. Even in that setting was incredible. But the new restoration seen in theaters, it’s such an incredible movie. And I don’t know if any two people have ever looked better than Sarita Choudhury and Denzel Washington in that movie. And also, still in the new Sex In The City, she’s by far the best part of that show. And I wish the second season would be like, “So bringing back Sex and the City didn’t really work out for us, but we are going to do a spinoff now with the one character that’s really working.” I would love to watch that show. So she’s hot, she’s talented. What else do you need for a crush of the week?

Christina: I honestly don’t think anything else. I think that’s really gorgeous. And I do think about that moment where she’s just smoking a cigarette in And Just Like That and someone says, “You’re just sitting here smoking a cigarette and doing nothing.” Because that truly was me from about 2009 to about 2019, simply sitting there smoking a cigarette and not doing shit else.

Carmen: My favorite is the, “I’m going to be the rich brown woman who writes the check.” Is for me the iconic Sex and the City Moment. I just wish the whole show had just been that.

Christina: That’s a wife. Like please.

Carmen: That’s a whole wife, that’s what that is.

Christina: A whole wife. My crush of the week, I’ve been watching what doctors have been calling too much Law & Order, and I do mean classic Law & Order, I do mean seasons six through 11. So I’m talking ’96 through 2000. And my crush of the week is Lennie Brisco, AKA Jerry Orbach. I have never known a better man slash detective in my life. Obviously Law & Order is copaganda. We don’t care for it. It’s actually quite troubling when you think about it for even half of a second. But the way this man has quips upon finding dead bodies is just an energy that I wish that I had. He told a perp one time, “Home Alone’s, a movie. It’s not an alibi.” And that’s incredible. He’s just a perfect man. And I wish he wasn’t dead, but he is, and that’s sad. But I love Jerry Orbach slash Lennie Brisco who are tied together in my brain.

Drew: Wow. You lost me at Law & Order, but then when you said Jerry Orbach, you almost got me back by surprising me so much with that one.

Christina: I just love him. He’s just perfect.

Carmen: I always remember when he passed and they took the lights out on Broadway for him. It’s just such a sweet memory that I will choose to leave us with as opposed to Law & Order. It’s just so rare when they take the lights out on Broadway.

Christina: There’s no way they will do that when I die, but I wish that they would.

Carmen: Right. That’s actually what I aspire to be. I aspire to be someone for whom when I die, all the lights… you know like the lights went out in Georgia? All the lights brought on Broadway. That is my point.

Christina: Quite literally.

Carmen: That’s a Designing Women reference, for anyone who hasn’t reached that part of their gay canon.

Christina: I was really thrilled with that. Who is your crush of the week, dear Carmen?

Carmen: I wrote down a list because it was the only thing Drew told me to prepare. And as was kind of, I think the sub-theme of this episode, I am a bit of a type A, I do like to be perfect at things. And so Drew gave one assignment and I wrote an entire list.

Drew: Incredible.

Carmen: Thank you. To be honest, the list was originally only two people. The first being Raja from RuPaul’s Drag Race: All Stars, which I did not have a crush on Raja when they were first competing way back in RuPaul’s Drag Race the dinosaur years. And I was just very unprepared for how attractive Raja was going to be as they approached 50. Just talented and so funny and eloquent and has the most beautiful silver hair, just a full mommi. I’m obsessed. And then the second person I wrote down is a crush I’ve been ashamed about, well, not shame. That’s a big word. But been embarrassed to share, which is Raven Symoné. I was also speaking of people who were in your life once before, and then they come back. No one told me Raven Symoné became hottie, no one told me. And she showed up on A Black Lady Sketch Show recently, and then that sent me down a path of her TikTok. And being married has been so good to Raven. I just want to say, a whole endorsement for marriage would be Raven Symoné’s life right now. I mean, just a babe, a whole babe.

Christina: Yeah. She has a fun TikTok and it’s very chaotic. I’m like what’s going on?

Carmen: It’s so good.

Christina: I’m like, “What’s happening.”

Carmen: I did not see “becoming a Raven Symoné fan” in my list for my thirties. But here I am ready to go back like it’s That’s So Raven all over again. Who knew? Who knew Christina? Not I.

Christina: We can’t predict these things and that’s what makes life so beautiful and gorgeous in many ways.

Carmen: I think my biggest dream is to get Raven Symoné off the Disney channel now, because she still has her soul sold to Mickey Mouse. And I was like, “I want to see you in an adult comedy. I want to see you in something that I can appreciate.”

Christina: Yes. Wholeheartedly agree.

Carmen: Right.

Drew: Carmen, do you want to tell people where they can find you and your work?

Carmen: Sure.

Drew: If you want them to.

Christina: Unless it’s a boundary.

Carmen: It is not a boundary. You can find my work on autostraddle.com where I give my blood, sweat, and tears every day. And also on Twitter and Instagram, they’re both carmencitaloves which in English would be carmencitaloves if you need that. And that’s it. I think those are all the places where one might find my work. The end.

Drew: Thank you. Thank you for coming on here.

Carmen: I had the best time. This was great.

Drew: You did so good. Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein, our logo is by Maanya Dhar, and this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter @c_gracet and on Instagram @christina_gracet. And you can find Autostraddle of course @autostraddle.

Drew: And you can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com, the reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment horridly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this. On the case here, we don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): I have a theory that the people who use the word boundaries the most are some of the people with the worst boundaries. I don’t know if that’s always true, but it feels true, doesn’t it?

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 201: Mommi Culture

The year: 2017. The day: the beginning of Pride Month. Big Little Lies and The Good Fight had recently released their first seasons. Rihanna had an album out the previous year. Images from Carol still danced across our feeds with a swooning urgency. The air was hot with the sparkle of new life. June 1, 2017: Mommi was born.

Former Autostraddle writer Erin Sullivan and current Autostraddle managing editor Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya co-wrote an article titled, “Mommi Is the New Daddy” and our lives were never the same.

I had only come out a couple months prior so it’s safe to say I’ve never really known a gay world without mommi. And why would I want to? Whether you are a mommi, like to date mommis, or are just an admirer from afar, we all have reasons to appreciate this gay archetype named a mere five years ago.

But amid all this mommi madness, I started to think of the actual moms. Some moms are mommis, but, of course, not all. And while we love to discuss mommis, moms — like people with actual children — are sometimes left out of the gay dating convo. And that’s why we’re so excited that for our season two premiere we have Autostraddle’s director of operations — and real-life mom — Laneia Jones to talk to Christina and I about all things dating as a mom. And before that great convo, we have mommi co-creator Kayla on to play a little mommi game!

SHOW NOTES

+ I am once again sharing the seminal mommi piece.

+ “All Star” is about climate change and my mind is blown. “It’s a cool place and they say it gets colder. You’re bundled up now, wait ‘til you get older. But the meteor men beg to differ judging by the whole in the satellite picture. The ice we skate is getting pretty thin. The water’s getting warm so we might as well swim. My world’s on fire, how ‘bout yours?” I mean, just read for yourself.

+ If you want more on my decision not to have kids and my feelings about it, check out this essay I wrote about the movie Good Manners as part of my series, aptly titled, “Monsters and Mommis.”

+ Read Laneia’s interview with her girlfriend Amanda!!

+ Read my Tahara review and then go see it as soon as you can.

+ Kristen Stewart really is starting a ghost hunting show.

Laneia: And that did feel awkward. And that did feel like it was putting me in a specific type of dating. Not very hookup, not that sexy to date, for brunch only.

Christina: You’re saying Wednesday brunch isn’t the hottest time to get a date? Good to know.

Laneia: It is not. I would not recommend it.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: (singing) Season two, baby.

Drew: This is when you say what Wait, Is This a Date is? Traditionally.

Christina: Okay. But what if I chose to give it like a sparkly new vocal? Like what about that?

Drew: I support that.

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? Is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to dating and sex, and all things fun. And of course, the perennial question, wait, is this a date?

Drew: Correct.

Christina: Whoo. Got it.

Drew: And I guess now we say— God, it’s been a long time.

Christina: It’s been a minute.

Drew: It’s been like six months since our special episode. And like almost a year since our regular episodes.

Christina: It’s been truly a long time since we have rocked. And some might even say rolled.

Drew: Yeah, we’re on like a TV schedule, but like an HBO or like something prestigious.

Christina: Yeah. Excuse me. I’m getting like big channel dollars. I’m no network. I’m not getting like network money. This is not an NBC Production. Thank you very much.

Drew: I do remember that we say who we are. And since this is a new season, maybe we have new people coming who don’t know. So, I’m Drew Gregory, I’m a writer and a filmmaker. I write for Autostraddle where I do like film and TV criticism, personal essays, dating stuff. I’m trans. I’m queer. I’m a trans woman. Should I say that? Should I clarify that? And I like— I don’t know why I was about to say that I like the idea of someone thinking that I was like transmasculine, but that’s something I’ve been unpacking for several years now.

Christina: I also like the idea of you asking me for permission about like, how you should identify yourself as if I’m going to come down with the correct ruling like, baby, live your life. Who am I to say?

Drew: I think where I’m at is queer trans woman and labels are what they are. What about you?

Christina: That’s really gorgeous. I’m Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle, and at the internet at large, a podcaster. Yeah. Some sort of like queer Black woman who just kind of like vibes, will accept all labels of any kind of gay sexuality. But I’m also like very bored by the labels’ conversation, perhaps because it is, I am over 24, and it does not feel important to me anymore, who can say? I’m gay, like let’s vibe, let’s fucking party. Wow…

Drew: I love that.

Christina: Simply the greatest intro to myself I’ve ever given.

Drew: Should we party? Should we get into it?

Christina: Let’s party.

Drew: Great.

Christina: How are we defining party in this moment?

Drew:Well, how we’re defining party in this moment is that our first episode of the season is all about Mommi Culture. So, we have a very special guest that we will introduce later for our main conversation, but we also have another very special guest. Yeah, that’s right. Premiere episode. Two, very special guests. We have a returning guest to play a little game with us.

Kayla: Hi, everyone. I’m Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya. I am the managing editor of Autostraddle, which I think is new, since the last time I was here. Last time I came to you as a writer, and now I’m a full-time editor here. Growth.

Christina: We love Kayla.

Drew: Also, I do think of you as like something of an expert of like Mommi with an i culture.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: And so, I’m wondering, what does that mean to you?

Kayla: Well, I was the co-founder of mommi at autostraddle.com. It was Erin Sullivan and I coined the term originally for the website in maybe 2015, I want to say. And we wrote a piece together called, “Mommi Is the New Daddy”. And honestly started a cultural revolution.

Christina: Yeah. My life’s never been the same. I’ll say that.

Kayla: The reputation certainly precedes us. I mean, most people don’t even know that I wrote that term for Autostraddle. So, your children outgrow you, and they have their life of their own. Like, that is how I view Mommi now, because also honestly, sometimes people will tag me into conversations about Mommi. And I’m like, “I don’t actually know what you’re talking about.” I feel like maybe I’m not an expert anymore, because it has grown and expanded so much. But yeah, I don’t know. It’s still part of my identity. Talking about labels earlier. Yeah. I’m not a Mommi myself, but an appreciator of.

Christina: Yes. Yes.

Drew: I mean, by all means, I would never want to put anything on you, but I feel like you’re approaching, like you definitely are getting into a new level where you’re close. Like, now you’re in your 30s, I think like 35, maybe you could get there.

Kayla: Yeah. You’re not wrong. And I’ve always kind of skirted the line between the things that I like and the things that I want to become, a deeply queer thing. But yeah, that has definitely always been a part of my identity crisis journey. And I think you’re correct. I think something about living in Miami in particular has brought that Momminess to the surface.

Christina: I was really going to say, I think in the year that we have been much closer, I have just seen such a gorgeous growth of Mommi energy. Truly the condo has a very incredible Mommi energy that simply the amount of coffee you can make at that home really is incredibly Mommi Culture.

Kayla: Truly any style. Yeah. All the ways, we have every coffee machine that you can imagine.

Christina: Yes. Yes.

Drew: Should we jump into this game, Christina? Do you want to describe it and name it—

Christina: Whoo-hoo.

Drew: —off the top of your head?

Christina: Simply no way I’m going to be able to name it off the top of my head. Absolutely not one of my strengths, but Drew and I were banding around just like the idea of things that can be quantified as Mommi, despite them perhaps having no real connection to Mommi Culture. So, we just figured it would be just like a fun, silly time of us saying things. And let’s be honest, being a little bit charmed by our own cleverness with regard to a bunch of things that are similar, but very different. And then, Kayla will choose, which is the most Mommi of the options that are given to her.

Drew: Yeah. You need to justify it.

Kayla: Okay.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: Should I start us off?

Christina: Start us off.

Drew: Okay. So, the first one is eagles, the bird, Philadelphia Eagles, the football team, and The Eagles, the band.

Kayla: I’m going to go eagles, the bird. They have a very specific haircut, a very specific look. They like to keep it consistent too. I feel like there’s something very Mommi about like, I’m going to have the same hairdo every day. Yeah.

Drew: I love that.

Christina: I will accept that. I also think, yeah, eagles have the haircut of like what my friends and I call the accidental mom butch, where you’re like, “I think that’s just a straight mom, but she’s accidentally cut her hair in the way that she looks like a butch lesbian, like what’s happening here.” And that is very an eagle look, I accept this answer. All right. For you, I have King Triton, Kings of Leon, and “King” by Florence and the Machine.

Kayla: I’m going to go King Triton, because I do feel like he is—

Christina: I’m loving this.

Kayla: I hope I’m only picking unexpected answers. I do think King Triton is like often trying to upstage his own daughter in terms of drama, in terms of look. And it’s like, there’s nothing more Mommi than that than somebody who’s like, “No, it’s me. It’s not my daughter’s day or my daughter’s time.” Like, “Sure. The movie’s named after her or whatever, but I’m here. I have my little outfit.”

Christina: I love calling his tail and shirtlessness an outfit.

Kayla: Yeah. He’s definitely topless.

Christina: He’s quite literally just in his body.

Drew: Look, nipples are the best accessories, so…

Kayla: There we go.

Drew: Okay. Next one. The Wild West, Wild Wild Country, the limited series, and Olivia Wilde.

Kayla: Oh, I feel like I’m being baited into saying Olivia Wilde, and I’m not going to go Olivia Wilde. I think I’m going to go The Wild Wild West, which you just mean as like a concept, right?

Drew: Yeah, yeah.

Kayla: I think it’s not a specific…

Christina: Well, Drew would’ve given you the year that movie came out.

Drew: That’s true.

Kayla: Yeah. I will say the first thing I thought of when I heard Wild Wild West is the seminal Mary-Kate and Ashley movie film, How the West Was Fun. Not necessarily a Mommi film, but definitely Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen today, veering into Mommi Culture, for sure. And I don’t know, there’s an unpredictability there. It is wild, Wild Wild West. I just mostly don’t think Olivia Wilde is very Mommi at all, so…

Drew: Yeah. I mean, that was the point of the game is that the things aren’t necessarily.

Kayla: Yeah. There’s a real lack of Mommi there.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Yeah. I love you finding the Mommi in these things that are just simply unwell.

Drew: I will say her like current age gap relationship with Harry Styles feels like the most Mommi thing she’s done yet, but that’s my answer, and that’s not your answer. And you’re the person playing this game. So, Christina?

Christina: All right. We have RuPaul’s Drag Race All Stars’ all winners, Smash Mouth’s “All Star,” and Cap’n Crunch’s OOPS! All Berries.

Kayla: I’m going to go Smash Mouth’s “All Star,” which I performed at karaoke for the first time ever a matter of weeks ago.

Christina: Wow. Can’t believe I missed that inaugural performance. What a bummer.

Kayla: It was in my own home, because I do have an at-home karaoke machine. Yes, the more I’m talking, the more I am becoming Mommi, but…

Christina: Okay, good. I was going to say it, if you didn’t, babe.

Kayla: Because I was like, I don’t want to wait in a line, wait in the queue to do karaoke. I want to do it in my own home. Go as many times as I want, try out new things. And one of those things was “All Star,” and I did not know that that song was about climate change.

Christina: What?

Kayla: I had never noticed. It’s very obvious actually. I just hadn’t sang it since I was a child. But when I was singing out loud, I had a realization mid singing. I was like, “Is this about climate change?” I said it out loud to my girlfriend. And she was like, “Oh, my God.” But that type of realization, that kind of like rocked my world is on the same level as when I created the term Mommi. It was like life changing. Yeah. I can never go back to before.

Christina: I mean, as they said, “It is a cool place, and they say it gets colder.” So, that’s—

Drew: Whoa.

Christina: —really something to think about up there.

Drew: Wow. My mind is blown.

Christina: Gorgeous answer.

Kayla: Go read the lyrics, go read the lyrics after this because it’s like all of them.

Christina: Treat yourself.

Drew: I will. Okay. Monster trucks, the concepts or the thing, Monster Energy drink, and Monster, the film from 2003 with Charlize Theron and Christina Ricci.

Kayla: Oh, yeah. I got to go Monster, the film. This feels like the easiest one. And it’s one where I’m like, “No, I can’t even avoid it, because it’s the obvious one.” Like, “I have to pick it. That’s the one.”

Drew: So, yeah, like murder Mommi, I guess. Aileen Wuornos is Mommi Culture.

Kayla: Yeah, obviously.

Drew: You said it here on the podcast.

Kayla: Actually. Yeah. Erin Sullivan would agree, honestly. Yeah. Mommi stay up for approval right there. Mommis can murder too.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, listen, it’s a whole genre of film. I’ve seen White Oleander. Come on now. All right. For my final, You’ve Got Mail, the film, You Got Served, the other film, and “You’ve Got The Love” by Candi Staton.

Kayla: This is the hardest one, because none of these things are pinging as Mommi, for me personally.

Christina: We came to test you.

Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. Finishing with a real stumper, because that is like You’ve Got Mail is probably like the least Mommi of those rom-coms.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Like three-way tie, nothing’s Mommi. I don’t know.

Christina: I love it.

Kayla: Is it a cop out?

Christina: No, it’s not a cop out. You’ve argued strongly for every other one. And if you have one where you say a three-way tie, I can fully support you.

Kayla: Yeah. There’s a lack of Mommi there. And honestly, some of why I feel like when I get brought into Mommi conversations. And I’m like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” is because sometimes Mommi gets thrown around a little too much.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Say that, girl. Say that.

Kayla: It’s like, sure, Mommi is a spectrum, but not everything can be Mommi.

Christina: Not everything can fit on a spectrum.

Drew: Not everything is King Triton.

Kayla: Not everything. That one felt obvious to me.

Christina: I simply love your mind. And I think it’s so gorgeous that we’re opening this second season with this like unbridled, Gemini chaos. I think it’s so lovely of us.

Drew: Well, thank you so much for coming back to play this game with us, and for reminding everyone where the term Mommi comes from.

Kayla: Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Drew: Do you want to say where people can find you?

Kayla: I am Kayla Kumari — that’s K-U-M-A-R-I — on everything, every single… If there’s a social media that exists, I’m on there and that is my name on it. And then also just on autostraddle.com, where I write about everything from tinned fish to like my life. I don’t know.

Christina: Yeah, those are the big two really. Always a delight. Now, go do something incredibly Mommi like throw on, I don’t know, light a candle and put on an album.

Kayla: I was wearing macramé earlier. So, just—

Christina: Well, and there she is, folks.

Kayla: And with that.

Christina: (singing) And now, it’s time for part two. Why am I so vocal today? What is going on with me?

Drew: I love it. I want you to sing this entire season.

Christina: Very surprising.

Drew: We should have a special musical episode where we have to sing the entire time.

Christina: See, I give you an inch. You run a mile. You run a ding dang mile.

Drew: Well, we are going from a one air sign to another, from a Mommi Culture to an actual mom. Would our guest like to introduce herself?

Laneia: Yeah. Hi, I’m Laneia Jones. I am the director of operations at Autostraddle where I’ve been for, I think somewhere around the past 78 years of my life.

Christina: Yeah. That math checks out.

Laneia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I am qualified to have this discussion, I believe because I have two children of my very own, and I think that’s about it. I’m a lesbian.

Christina: Great. Love that.

Laneia: I’m 41. That’s probably important to this as well. Yeah.

Christina: I love all of this. Thank you so much for joining us to really drill down into that delineation between like someone can be a mom, but not necessarily have a Mommi feeling, like that is part of their identity, or culture, or even really care to understand it. And I think we’re going to have a fun little chitchat here today, I hope.

Laneia: Thank you for having me.

Drew: What is your relationship to like Mommi Culture in queer community?

Laneia: Honestly, I think when the term was coined, I felt like I was at least close or orbiting that definition. Honestly, there’s something about Mommi that I feel is like in a specific age range, and it’s like I’m between the young version of it, and the older version of it right now. And I’m in this weird in between place where it’s like, I’m not sure I’m there. I think I’m like on the outskirts at this time.

Christina: Skirting Mommi. Wow. That’s an erotica book.

Laneia: I think it’s the hair, to be honest. I think it’s the haircut right now is doing a lot to get me out of it.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: Interesting.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: I mean, I’d also just love to talk about like dating as a mom, because that’s something that I don’t have any experience with and Christina doesn’t. And that I assume has a lot of specifics. And a lot of specifics that a lot of people can relate to. I feel like I’ve met a lot of people in queer community who have kids, who will bring up like specifics of dating while a mom. So, I definitely like want to sort of dive into that. So, in queer community, when you’ve dated, do people ever have an issue that you have kids or has that been something that gets, that comes up?

Laneia: Not that like I have been made aware of. God, let’s see. I’ve been doing this for a bit, I guess. So, I started off on OkCupid.

Christina: Ah, I see.

Laneia: And did make it very clear there that I had children in an effort to like, if someone’s not interested in that, they don’t need to bother me.

Drew: Right.

Laneia: And since that was… again, like around 50 years ago, I was at that time, my children were younger. And so, if I were going to be entering a long-term relationship, like I think at that time I was looking for a co-parent to build a family around that. And I tried that. That is over. That experiment has ended, and it has ended at a time when the kids that I have are essentially not actually kids anymore. My oldest is 23, and my youngest is 17, because I got started very young. I was like, “Let’s get this out of the way.” And so, now, it’s like, I’m not looking for a co-parent, and I think that has made this third now round of dating as a mom a little bit more chill and I don’t need a babysitter. I don’t really have to worry as much now that they’re older. So, that has been nice. But I haven’t really encountered that. I was worried in the beginning that people would have a problem with it. And then, it actually turned out that the people, that reached out, the people I did go on dates with, were into it. I think to them it sort of was like, “Oh, great.” Like an instant family. Like, we’ll just add water and this is fine, which it is not that easy obviously. It is a whole different thing. But yeah, I think some people appreciated it.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s interesting that delineation between like, when my kids are young, I’m going to have to think about like what involving a co-parent into their life means. And now, that they’re a little older being like, I get to kind of have a little bit more flexibility when I want to disclose this. Like, do you have a moment where you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to start upfront with everybody about that I have kids,” or like are you getting to know somebody and then, you’re like, “And by the way, I have kids,” or you’re on a date, maybe. Maybe it gets like you’re in person and then, it’s like the moment where you’re like, “Oh, I have two kids.” Or Is it just based on vibes, like the person’s vibe?

Laneia: Yeah. It’s very vibe based.

Christina: Mm-hmm. As much as dating is very vibe based.

Laneia: Yeah. This last round again was like, I wasn’t looking for a relationship at all. So, the whole thing was like, they didn’t need to know. I didn’t need to disclose that I had children in order to just go on some dates, have some sex, have some drinks. Like, there was no reason to talk about that. And so, I didn’t bring it up, and my kids aren’t like on my social media. Well, I talk about them, but they’re not like on Instagram with me. And the person that I’m dating now, like the very first date, she was like, “You have four photos on Instagram, what’s going on?” And I was like, “Well, nothing. What are you talking about?” And then, just really quickly had to disclose pretty much everything, which was fine. But I am the first parent that she has seriously dated. So, that has been interesting.

Christina: I also just love the idea of like, we are all so on socials, and you see someone socials who do not necessarily reflect a life that you think that they would be living. And you’re like, “All right, what’s your deal? What are you hiding? What’s going on? What’s skeletons are in that closet? What’s going on here?”

Laneia: That was exactly it. Yeah.

Drew: As it’s changed over the years of looking for a co-parent versus not has the timeline in which you would bring the person you’re dating into your kids’ lives also changed?

Laneia: Yeah. It did this time. I felt no real push to do that this time for a while. I think it had to happen eventually, because she was coming over during the daytime. But it wasn’t like, “Okay, I hope you like this person, and I hope this goes well.” I pretty much was like, “This is who I’m dating.” Like, meet this person, you meet this person. And they hang out on the couch and watch TV sometimes. But no one’s needing to impart any sort of life lesson, or punishments, or help with homework, or anything like that. So it was just like, if they don’t like each other, that’s probably going to be fine. Or like that’s how I thought about it in the beginning was like, “Nah, I don’t care. Not really.”

Christina: I love that. It’ll be a different kind of challenge, but like we’ll get over it.

Laneia: Yeah. We’ll get over it. Yeah.

Drew: Do you feel like it’s a lot. I mean, maybe you don’t have any knowledge of this, but do you presume that among people, dating as a mom is a lot different than for straight people? Is there stuff that comes up that feels very unique to being queer?

Laneia: I would assume that it is extremely different, just because a lot of things are extremely different about that.

Drew: Sure.

Laneia: I think if you’re a queer person, chances are at least that you haven’t really, like in your own mind, socialized yourself to believe that at some point eventually you will probably be a parent. I think it’s just out there as an option, unless obviously that is your whole thing. And which in case that’s totally fine. But most of the time, I think it’s sort of like if it happens, it happens or it’ll happen like 10 years from now. So, I think there’s not an inherent, like feeling of immediate responsibility or immediate like, “Oh, God, they’re going to want me to step in, and do this, and do that.” I feel like that would be a heavy weight in straight dating, because I think it would be presumed that you would date, get married. Like, there’s a timeline. And then, for queer people, there’s really not. There’s just like a field, and you just roam around in that field. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like my gut is like… and again, having famously no kids and simply not being straight, I feel very comfortable pontificating on this, about straight people and their marriages. But it does kind of feel like if you are straight and you are married and you want kids, like that’s your end goal. And to be a person coming into a relationship that already has kids, I feel like I have certainly experienced straight women who feel like, “Well, then, what does that mean for me if this guy I’m dating already has kids? Like, “Where does that put me and my eventual future children?” “Do we not? Does he not want to have more kids? How do I feel about these kids versus like biological kids that I would have?” That just seems complicated and hard.

Laneia: Yeah. That seems fraught.

Christina: And deeply fraught.

Laneia: Yeah. Fraught as hell.

Christina: And not great. I don’t know. Everybody maybe needs to chill out by what we mean by family. Just like a little bit, maybe. Tap the breaks.

Laneia: Yeah. I agree. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Drew: Christina, have you dated anyone with kids?

Christina: I have not.

Drew: That’s interesting.

Laneia: Would you? Do you think that’s something you would want to do, like if it happened?

Christina: It’s a tough road for me to walk with my obvious love of Mommis and my not dislike of children, sounds incredibly rude, and as does disinterest, which was the other word I was going to choose. My lack of desire to be a parent in any real way. Happy to be the cool gay auntie who pops in every now and then. I think I certainly could date someone who had grown children, a co-parenting situation where things are perhaps sticky. I won’t be joining that. That would be a real struggle for old CT. I have two adult children in their 30s that I live with and that feels like enough for me, child wise.

Laneia: That’s extremely valid.

Christina: What about you, Drew?

Drew: I’ve hooked up with and casually dated some people who have young kids, and it was never from a place of like, it was never serious enough that there was ever a feeling of potential future responsibility, or meeting them, or anything like that. I would definitely be open to it, though. If I was like single and dating, I mean, when I was single and dating, there were some people who had kids who like I actively did at some point want to date, and it didn’t work out. But something that was interesting going back to the straight people versus queer people thing is that, I’m thinking of two people in particular, were talking about it in— were mostly coming from straight dating world, and were like sort of entering a new queerness, and it felt very much like, “Oh, I have kids. I can’t date.” And I was like, “I don’t think it’s going to have issues.” And they did. They brought up a lot of the stuff we were saying about the way that straight men react. I was like, “I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think that that’s going to be an issue for queer people.” So, it makes sense that you’re confirming that, that it hasn’t ever come up for you.

Laneia: It really hasn’t. And also, just the idea of casual dating that is also still meaningful. Like, it’s not something that’s looked down on here. I don’t know. There’s just like a lot less pressure. And I think that makes it a little bit more of a chill situation where it’s like, “That’s fine.” But yeah, if my children were extremely young right now, I don’t think I would have dated as quickly as I did. I think I would’ve honestly given that maybe a couple years, but they can make their own dinner. I had a free Saturday. I was like, “What are we waiting for? There’s no reason to put this off.” Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. When your kids were younger, what was it like? Like, not from a dating — I know this is a dating podcast, but I am curious about this — just like general socializing, did that play into it? Like, as far as… I don’t know, like going out and just being a young queer person? And in environments where I think a lot of people, like you mentioned going on OkCupid when your kids were young, do you feel like you had to rely more on a dating app, dating site more than like going out in the world and like a gay clubs and whatever.

Laneia: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Also, I had been married to a man, and then ended that after realizing I was gay. And it was the idea of like going out into the gay culture with no one, with no friends, no community. Literally no. There was no way that was going to happen. One time I did take myself to a gay bar, and it was top to bottom, the most humiliating experience I have ever put myself through. And I was like, “That is never happening again.”

Christina: Wait. Yeah. I’m sorry. We’re going to have to take a quick detour to talk about why this is so upsetting for you. This does sound like the beginning of a film, just so you know.

Laneia: Oh, God, it was horrible. It was very much like Tai at that party in Clueless. Just like trying to figure out how to stand. I wore the wrong outfit. It was like a sweater. It was so, so bad. I got there way too early. The other thing, it just could not have been worse. And luckily, there was a table of queer women types, at least that invited me over, to sit with them, and had conversations with me. And that was nice, extremely nice of them. But yeah, I was like, this is not going to be how I meet people, obviously. And then, also just being extremely online, made it just so much easier to keep being online, doing what I was doing. But the other thing about me, since I did have children so young is that when I was dating like that second round, I was an anomaly in that way. Nobody else had children. I had to make sure that I had day dates. It was all brunches for a while, like during the week, because that’s when they were in a classroom, and it was free childcare. And that did feel awkward. And that did feel like it was putting me in a specific type of dating. Not very hookup, not that sexy to date, for brunch only.

Christina: You’re saying Wednesday brunch isn’t the hottest time to get a date? Good to know.

Laneia: It is not. I would not recommend it, maybe in a larger city, but yeah, not in Phoenix. But that was… I think the hardest part was that I knew that I would be the only person that most of these people had dated that had children, just simply because who at that age would have quite so many kids, and still not be in a relationship yet. So, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I think that makes sense.

Drew: Was like A-Camp then, like the first time that you were just like… I assume you never brought your kids to A-Camp. So, was that—

Laneia: No.

Drew: —like the first time that you were immersed in just like chaotic queer partying?

Laneia: Unfortunately, it was not. My first immersion in that was Dinah Shore.

Drew: Incredible.

Christina: Gorgeous.

Laneia: Got a couple of Dinah Shores. I went to New York for a while. That was the first time that I was around that many people. And I was like, this is literal chaos. At that point, I was like, “I don’t know if I can actually date, and have kids if this is what it looks like.” But luckily that was just typical New York, like debauchery type stuff. So, that wasn’t everywhere. But yeah, Dinah Shore was crazy. But even there, I was like, “These are just not my people.” I just knew that. So, A-Camp was the first place I went where I was like, “Oh, okay.” Like, “Here we are.” Like, “This feels normal.” Which makes sense, because it was our camp. So, very self-selecting.

Christina: Right. Right. Everyone said, “Yeah, girl, put that sweater on and head to the club.”

Laneia: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Drew: At what age did you… Sorry, I’m fully interviewing you. I’m just—

Christina: I know, I’m loving Drew as a journalist.

Laneia: No, I love it.

Christina: Drew said, “Journalism, baby.”

Drew: What age did you first connect with other queer moms and queer parents?

Laneia: Damn, I don’t know if I—

Drew: Or if you ever did.

Laneia: —really would say that I have. It’s been a really weird situation for me specifically, because I did have my first kid when I was in high school. And so, none of my friends at that time had kids. And then, as I got older, I was surrounded by straight people. And so, they were having some kids, but mine were always older. I just never had like a peer group there. And then, coming out, forget it. Absolutely no peer group. I’ve met some parents through Autostraddle and have talked with them, either on social media or in comments, definitely at A-Camp. There’s a lot of parents there, not a lot, but more than I would’ve expected, to be honest.

Drew: Sure. Yeah.

Laneia: And that was fun, but it’s like, I just never have felt super connected to other moms. And I do think that is, because I was exposed to air quotes other moms when I thought I was straight. So, I think I was just like, “This is probably not for me.” Because, God, I don’t want to like talk shit about straight people, but it was… I truly was like—

Drew: This is a safe space for that.

Christina: Yeah. The space literally couldn’t be safer if we tried.

Laneia: I was like this cannot be your only interest. Like you have got to be kidding me. Like don’t you have anything else to do? It just was very centered around like, being a mother was their identity, and being a wife was their identity, which is fine if that’s your thing. But for me, I immediately was like I’m going to go. Like that’s not going to work for me.

Christina: Well, Yeah. And to be surrounded by that fully, and not have anyone who was even approaching your level of like, oh, I also have other interests.

Laneia: Exactly.

Christina: I would feel very Stepford wife in that scenario.

Laneia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was it. So I just really— there’s someone else at work who we were discussing, she also has kids, and she’s a few years older than me, I think just a couple. And was also like, yeah, I cannot understand, like identifying specifically and singularly as a mom, like that just would never happen. And that’s how I feel. And I did struggle with that for a bit. Just being like, “Am I a horrible parent that I have other interests outside of my children?” But it was really just for a bit, because then I was like, no, this is me. I don’t really just identify as that. And so, I’m not finding my own community there among other parents.

Christina: That’s like an impressive ability, I feel. To be able to feel like that’s not bad parenting, because I feel like so much of media will tell you that that is definitively bad parenting, especially God forbid, if you are a mother. Like, what you should be interested in is your children first and foremost.

Laneia: Just your children. Right.

Christina: And then, maybe your husband, second.

Laneia: Yeah.

Christina: And I think it kind of whips that you were able to be like, “Nope. That’s actually not my failing. That is y’all’s issue, I’m out of here.”

Laneia: I definitely did try it for a while and was just like, “I can’t do this.” And then, honestly, I think coming out of that was around the time that I was like, “And I’m gay?” Like, so, these two might go hand in hand.

Christina: Yeah. That tracks, that really tracks.

Laneia: I am going to need to do more things like be gay. So, yeah.

Christina: This is not an interview question. Well, I guess it is, but it’s for Drew, which is a plot twist.

Drew: Oh.

Christina: Well, just thinking about dating and wanting to be parents, or dating people with parents. Do you have any interest in having children? I think listeners can probably assume by the fact that I went between disgusted and disinterested on children that like I’m all set. But Drew as a person, is that something that when you’re dating, you think about like, “Oh, could I make a family with this person?” Like, “Am I interested in doing that?”

Drew: I would like to have children, but I don’t necessarily think that it’s in the cards for me, which I do think is interesting. I think when I’ve dated people who have kids, the thought has definitely crossed my mind of being like, oh. Like, I wouldn’t be their kid’s parent, but if they were young, I would be like a major role in their life. And that could be really nice. But I also want to check that, because I would never want to assume anything about what they would want. And I mean, maybe if I was dating someone for like six months, I would like start to think about it or like several years, but early on, it crosses my mind that like, “Oh, that’s probably one of the only ways that I would ever have kids in my life in that way.” I’m just like I can’t biologically have kids, because I decided to not freeze my sperm when I started transitioning. And it’s pretty challenging to go back and detransition to get viable sperm. It’s like pretty unlikely. It’s not impossible, but it’s just tricky. And it just was too expensive. And I just wanted to spend that money on… I don’t know. It’s weird to be 23, and having to decide if you ever want to have kids or not. But I just knew in that moment that like, yeah. But it’s definitely something I think about to a certain extent. But I also am okay with the thought that kids would be in my life, because my sister has kids or my friends have kids. Though, most of my friends don’t want kids and it’s annoying to me. I wish that more of them would want to have kids. So, I could like be a gay aunt. But yeah, I don’t know. It still feels like a little fraught to me, because I think I went through a journey of like, “Of course, I’m going to have kids because I’m straight, and that’s what we do.” And then, I went to like, “No, I’m gay. And I do things differently, and I don’t even think I want kids, and whatever.” And then, sort of like settling on a place of being like, “Oh, yeah. It’s something I’d be open to happening. And I don’t really know what scenario it would happen.” I also tend to date people who don’t want kids. All my serious relationships have been with people who it’s either like, “Oh, maybe someday.” Or it’s not. I’ve never dated anyone, who’s like, “I just want to get pregnant.” So, yeah. That’s my long-winded answer. I like kids, though. I really hope that I find ways throughout my life that I’m around kids. And I’ve volunteered tutored before, and things like that. And I always enjoy interacting with kids. Though, I obviously assume that being a parent is very different when it’s 24/7.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting that like, I do have kids in my life who I love and support dearly, but none of them are from one group of straight friends that I still have. I don’t have a ton of queer folks in my life who have young kids. I have some friends who have older kids who are in that kind of like 23, 24-ish range. But there’s not a ton of people in my immediate circle who are like, “Oh, and we’re getting married, and thinking about kids. And this kind of queer way.” I’m like, well, thank God for those couple straights I let hang on these many years. Because their weird little kids are really getting me through, and I’m going to turn all of them gay, and I can’t wait.

Laneia: That’s a wonderful service, honestly. Thank you for doing that.

Christina: Just introducing four-year-olds to many tattoos and watching their eyes get wide with wonder, and being like, “Sorry, mom.”

Laneia: Yeah, I was exposed. I was exposed. That sounds insane. But there was another child that was around the same age as my children, in the family that I was married into a few years ago. And they always were fascinated by me and my partner at that time. And then, ended up coming out as non-binary later. I don’t know how that’s gone since then, but I was like, “Fuck. Yes.” I was thrilled to learn that. Also, you can just tell when a kid is just a little bit more interested in you than the other kids are. There’s something there, they’re picking up on something, they’re studying something, because kids do just study everything. And so, that was really cool to watch, and have it around me in that way. Those are really the only children that I’ve been around, likehat family stuff, that weren’t my own, or weren’t related to me immediately. And I think it’s cool as a queer person who does not have kids, and who’s maybe not in on that journey. I think it’s cool that queer people have, I think a little bit more of an ability to be imaginative about how you could be involved in children’s lives and how you could make a difference, whatever that means. But how you could give back somehow to, like the human race, in that way. I don’t know. I think straight people could do with a little bit of an imagination when it came to things like that.

Christina: I think straight people could do with a little bit of an imagination. It was a really beautiful takeaway, kind of just period.

Laneia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christina: Drew, you’ve got your thoughtful face on.

Drew: Yeah. Well, now, I’m just thinking about the fact that, Laneia, when you’re talking about your experience of having kids young and being in a straight marriage, and you’re talking about it like it’s, I don’t know, like the not sort of regular way of queer parenthood. And I was thinking about the fact that most of the people who have kids who I’ve met in dating, and maybe it’s because it’s in a space of dating, and they’re closer to my age or whatever, but that is the scenario of most of the people I meet have kids is, they were in a straight relationship, and had kids young. And then realize that they were a queer and now are dating. And it’s just something that we don’t see in media, like almost ever. And maybe that’s because I think there’s a lot of reasons, one of which is that even queer media is often like sort of trying to fit into like a straight cultural way of being. And also, I think there’s a class element to it of like it’s so expensive to have kids through ways that are, I don’t know, you know what I’m saying. So—

Laneia: Yeah, definitely.

Drew: —it’s interesting that we don’t really have a lot of portrayals of that, but out in the world, that’s the primary way people who I meet, who have kids, had kids.

Christina: Yeah, absolutely.

Laneia: That’s really interesting. I knew I think one or two other people who that was also their experience. Well, two, yeah, that I’m thinking of that they, I believe got pregnant in college, early, early college. And yeah, learning that about somebody will immediately endear me to them. Because it is truly like, it’s either you were in a place where you hadn’t had a chance to be yourself yet, or you did have a chance, and you were trying to maybe talk yourself out of it, or you were trying to figure out if there was any escape patch there. And that is a very specific trajectory. And it is, not to bring this down, it’s like painful really to think that something so huge could happen to you at a time when you’re barely even formed all the way. And so, anytime I ever meet another person who got pregnant super, super young, I am just like, “Oh, my God.” Like, “I love you. How are you doing? How has it been?” But that is really cool. And this is in LA that you’re seeing like a lot of that? That’s so cool. That makes me really happy.

Drew: I don’t want to say a lot, but I would say like two. But those are the experience of like… Yeah…

Laneia: That seems like a lot.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I think the same, like the two, or three people I can think of that have kids, and had a similar experience of were either in a marriage or had kids really young. And then, later were like, “Oh, actually very gay is what’s happening here. It’s like a very gay thing that’s happening here.” Yeah. Because I don’t see a ton of people who have come together as a queer couple and decided to do like, “We are making our family in some way.” I haven’t seen a ton of that in my personal experience.

Laneia: It is also probably like a different age bracket doing that, because like you said, Drew, I can’t imagine how costly that would actually be. And it’s expensive enough to have them after the fact, like, that’s just so much money. So, you’re already pricing out so many queer people.

Christina: Exactly.

Laneia: Just by virtue of that. Yeah. Which sucks.

Christina: Whoo.

Drew: Well…

Christina: Gosh, I feel like I learned some stuff.

Drew: I really did.

Christina: It’s just like a nice conversation to have. That is something that I don’t think about a lot, something I don’t have experience with. And I love having a little brain tease moment and getting to know people. I think that’s gorgeous.

Laneia: Yeah. This was really fun. Thank you so much.

Drew: Yeah. I just read your interview with your partner. And so, today has been a Laneia day. I feel like I’ve—

Christina: Got Laneia on the old brain.

Laneia: You’re like basically in our relationship right now. If you just read it, and you talk to me today, then I think that means we’re in a throuple. Yeah.

Drew: It’s a really nice relationship to be in.

Christina: It was a very sweet interview.

Laneia: Thank you. Yeah. She’s really cool.

Drew: Let’s move on then to our crush of the week segment. Crush corner, is that what we called it last season?

Christina: Crush corner.

Drew: Crush corner.

Christina: But crush of the week is a funny twist on it. Yeah.

Drew: Christina, do you want to start?

Christina: Yeah. My crush corner this week. One, Margaret Cho, she’s just having a year. She was popped up on The Flight Attendant. She popped up on Hacks. She’s delightful in Fire Island. She’s just every which where. I think we should give her many more flowers, and get her in all of the damn projects. I’m always happy to see her. I’m always happy to hear her. More Margaret Cho forever. And she really was living the life that her in Fire Island. I was like, this is going to be me in very few years. This is really actually quite staggering. This lesbian scammer who has a house full of young gays.” Yeah, that tracks.

Drew: That’s beautiful. I want that for you.

Christina: Margaret Cho, celebrate her love her. Drew, who you got?

Drew: Mine is the creative team behind Tahara, which is a new queer movie that is takes place at a Jewish funeral, and is hilarious, and brilliant. And I reviewed it, and that review will be out by the time this podcast comes out. So, I’ll link to it. So I don’t have to spend 10 minutes gushing about it here. But it’s really good. And it’s probably because it’s independent. It’s going to have a slow rollout. So, I don’t know where it will be at theater wise or streaming wise when this comes out. But it’s just so, so good. It’s so special. And I think everyone should see it. And that’s T-A-H-A-R-A for people who aren’t Jewish.

Christina: I was going to say for the gentiles among us.

Drew: Yeah. Laneia, do you have a crush this week?

Laneia: Yeah. I thought long and hard about this. And I think my crush this week is going to have to be all of the ghost hunters that Kristen Stewart is currently rounding up. I have a crush on every one of them. I haven’t seen them. I don’t know anything about them, but I know in my heart that I’m going to have big feelings for them once I do meet them. So, I’m excited about that show.

Drew: I’m really excited for you, and for all of us, really.

Christina: Hunting ghosts, that absolutely whips. And it’s very gay. It’s very gay to want to talk to a ghost.

Laneia: It’s very gay.

Christina: Very gay.

Laneia: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Well, Laneia, can you tell people where they can find you if you want them to find you?

Laneia: Oh, yeah. So, on Twitter, I am @grrreen, and that’s green with three Rs. Otherwise, it’s spelled normally. And then, I’m private on Instagram, but if you look even remotely queer, I’m adding you, and that is @laneia, L-A-N-E-I-A.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Yes. With that single name Instagram handle.

Laneia: I got in there early.

Christina: That’s hot girl shit, for sure. Absolute sure. Hot.

Drew: Thank you so much, Laneia.

Laneia: Thank you. This was really fun. Thank you, guys.

Christina: This was a ding dang delight.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate. And you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar. And this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter @C_GraceT. And on Instagram @christina_gracet. And you can find Autostraddle, of course @autostraddle.

Drew: And you can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com. The reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much, and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment, horridly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this. On the case here, we don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us, the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): It’s a bummer. I was such a prude before I transitioned, because there’s no chance that I’m going to have like a Transamerica situation where I find out that I have a secret kid somewhere. It’d be really, really unlikely considering how little sex I had with how few people. Maybe.

A+ Members Can Submit to the Wait Is This a Date Mailbag!

Feature for Wait Is This a Date Submit to our mailbag episodes! Season 2! Features fun and lighthearted emojis over a pink background with a little photo cutout featuring a photo of two queer people laughing and smiling together over something on a phone.

Wait Is This a Date is coming back for Season 2… and this season, A+ members get the exclusive chance to send mail to Christina and Drew! What’s in this mail, you ask? Your questions, concerns, and vibe checks about queer dating.

Submission Details: We prefer voice memos, so please, please do try to record and send us a voice memo. BUT if you absolutely cannot, that’s okay. We have a place for you to include text, too. We definitely do not need both. You can get these voice memos in throughout the season, but there’s no better time to start than right now so that you have a chance to make it on the first mailbag episode! (We believe there will be 3.)

What happens after you submit? Drew, Christina and Lauren will look through the mailbag and select a few to feature on their special mailbag episodes throughout Season 2 of WITAD! Honestly, as much as I’m sure we all hate to hear our own voices, imagine hearing your own voice on WITAD. Personally, I think it sounds thrilling.

Thank you so much for being a member and making all our Autostraddle projects, including our podcasts like Wait Is This a Date, possible!

Submit to the WITAD Mailbag!

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Special Episode: 2021 Mailbag

Happy holidays! And by “happy” I mean, things sure feel really bad right now?? And most of us have probably had our holiday plans changed once again?? But luckily our gift to you is a virtual one AKA our long-awaited mailbag episode!

We get into tough feelings surrounding non-monogamy, fictional characters we’d want on the pod, and so much more. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions!

SHOW NOTES

+ Here are the lip recs from Christina! Almost Lipstick from Clinique and Powder Puff Lippie from NYX.

+ If it feels good, do it.

+ You can’t watch Barbara Hammer movies online but if you’re in LA you can see Nitrate Kisses in theatres next month for free.

+ Scissoring merch! Get your scissoring merch!

+ An essay on Paul Takes the Form of a Mortal Girl and my personal brand of sluttiness.

+ Ro’s piece on dental dams.

+ The Novice is out now! Watch it!

Drew: I was talking to my dad of all people—

Christina: Bringing dads into this space!

Drew: I know — about being happy. And my dad was like, “Oh, well, do you think it’s because this is the first relationship that you’ve gotten into as yourself?

Christina: First of all, dad, that’s so sweet!

Drew: I know! Very sweet dad comment.

Christina: Go off, king!

Drew: And I was like — very funny for you to call my dad king.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Christina: And I’m Christina! And this is a podcast that I forgot the intro to already.

Drew: That’s okay! It’s been a while.

Christina: Woohoo, it has.

Drew: This is Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Yes, that podcast.

Drew: I’ll do your part. Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date? An Autostraddle podcast all about sex and dating as queer people with queer people, hopefully. How, how am I doing?

Christina: No, I think you’re crushing it. I think what’s really exciting about this episode is this is our mailbag episode where we’ll be taking questions from you, our listeners. A bunch of you sent in voice memos and emails, and we have the content and the questions and hopefully the answers, but like, I, I’m not gonna say anything too crazy. I don’t wanna get too outlandish, you know?

Drew: Yeah. We’re questioning along with you. Should we — I mean, this probably isn’t people’s first episode, but in case people missed us, you know, introducing ourselves, maybe that’s someone’s favorite part of the podcast. So I think we should introduce ourselves.

Christina: Yeah, absolutely.

Drew: Okay, cool. I’ll go first. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer and a filmmaker and a queer person. I still identify as a lesbian, but I’ve been using that word less, which is maybe something that I can unpack on a future episode. I still am a lesbian, but I also am like, what does that even mean? You know? I don’t know. Labels are funny, but I’m pretty confident that I’m a writer. I’m pretty confident that I’m a filmmaker. Uh, what about you?

Christina: Yeah. Uh, I am Christina Tucker, a writer at Autostraddle also. I am also a queer person. I started actually using “queer” more when I first came out and now I use lesbian maybe equally. I’m also very, I just kind of use whatever word feels right, coming out of my mouth in the moment. And I don’t really think about it much more than that. But that’s a journey we’re all on, frankly.

Drew: I support that. I do think that sums up who we are, that I’m like, “I’m going to have to revisit this in the future.” And you’re like, “I just sort of do what I feel and don’t need to think more about it.”

Christina: I quite literally pick the word that works best for the bit, so…

Drew: Well, yeah. So as you said, this is our mailbag episode. Should we just get into the first — oh, I also want to say before we start that if you sent us a question and we don’t get to it, it might be because there were certain things that were like, oh, I want to unpack this on a future full episode, maybe with a special guest who would be more, you know, maybe more qualified to answer it. So we really appreciate all the questions—

Christina: You guys sent a lot of questions, which was cool, but we might not have time to get to every single one of them.

Drew: Yeah. But they were all read.

Christina: And also some of you just sent us compliments without questions.

Drew: And, you know, usually with — if this was a Q&A before or after a movie, it’d be like, don’t compliment the person. There’s a whole audience here, but for this, the only audience was Christina and I and Lauren. And so honestly, compliments, great. Thank you so much. Really, very nice.

Christina: Thrilling to receive, truly one of my main food groups.

Drew: So yeah, let’s start with the first question. In the voice memo, the person says that they’re semi-closeted, so we’re gonna leave out names just to be safe here. And let’s listen to this question.

Anonymous Asker: So this is coming from a person who has no experience with dating whatsoever, mostly because I’m semi-closeted and living out in the mostly conservative boonies. When I graduate high school, I’m leaving this place so I can have a taste of freedom. And I’m realizing that I’m going to be entering the queer dating realm. This is a very generic query, but how do I ask a girl out for the first time without falling into a full on panic attack? As you can tell, I’m very bad at talking to people.

Drew: This is an age old, age old question. Truly.

Christina: It really is. I honestly think it is why we have a podcast.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I feel like we sort of know where I’m going to go with this, which is like, it’s about accepting the fact that no one’s good at this? I mean, maybe people eventually get good at it because you do it enough and you sort of lose the — what’s it — the exposure therapy or whatever — but like, it is one of those things where you just do it and it gets easier. And personally, even before I came out — I mean, to clarify, I was asking girls out before I came out because of the whole being a trans person thing. And when I think about the early days of when I left my terrible small town and went off to college and was first really asking people out, I really took a very direct approach and really was like, “Hello, do you want to go on a date?” And I think over the years, I moved away from that a little bit. But I honestly still, I still think sometimes it’s great to just be direct and ask someone out, and you get a clear answer. I mean, you could also do the thing where you just start vague and ask someone to hang out and you just, you know, play a, Wait, Is This a Date game for awhile.

Christina: Right. Fingers crossed, I hope that message comes across. I also think in a scenario, like for me, when I started dating, as I was queer dating, I was out of college, way out of my hometown, but I was doing a lot of dating via apps and that does cut down the awkwardness because it’s like, we all know what we’re here for. And while I think there are obviously negatives to any dating app, much like most things in life, I do think that kind of removing that barrier of like, oh no, how awkward is this going to be? Like, is it going to be like, no, it’s, that’s what this is for the platform where you have come to. And then when you, when you make the hangout ask, it does necessarily know that it’s a date because that’s why we’re all here. Vibing.

Drew: That’s a good point.

Christina: I mean, I do understand that it is — like that feeling of like, “Oh no, this is going to be so awkward because I’m so awkward.” But honestly the times I have felt super awkward, frankly, most people are just like, that was charming. So don’t think about your awkwardness only in like, this is awkward and everybody hates me. People can be like, that’s awkward, but it’s kind of cute. And I do want to go on a date with you. Two things can be true. I think that’s beautiful.

Drew: Very true. Yeah. Yeah. I think we have this idea that if you ask someone out, you have to be like major top energy Shane-style, and it’s like, no, you can ask someone out as an awkward person, and that’s a different brand of hot, but it’s still, it’s still one of the brands.

Christina: There are many brands of hot.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Wow. That’s really beautiful.

Drew: Great. Well, let’s move on to the next question that is coming from Claire from Australia.

Claire: Hey, I’ve loved listening to you guys from here in Queensland, Australia, and had a question for each of you actually. Christina, what is this non-transferable lip liner that you wear on a first date, and where can I buy it? And Drew, yours is a bit harder. How do you know when to listen to the hard feelings that come up during a non-monogamous situation and when to work through them?

Christina: Wow. I love that I get a lip and you get hard feelings. I think that’s a really beautiful. I will go first and give you some time to think about the hard feelings. So there’s a couple of versions of a non-transferable lip. When I was in my youth back in the old mid-aughts, when everyone was simply addicted to wearing a matte lipstick, I did a lot of, like, Stila mattes are pretty non-transferable. But here’s the thing I’m getting older. My skin is getting drier. I can’t be wearing a matte lip like that and not having a dried out lip moment. So now we’ve moved into a stain, which is really chef’s kiss. Cause it can get a little must, but no one really notices, still look great. Currently a big fan of Clinique. Their black honey is an incredible one and also the Knicks lippie powder puff, many colors, fades beautifully. A great lip stain. Go forth and make out on your dates with great lips. That’s all I want for everybody really. Now, Drew, talk to me about hard feelings.

Drew: Hard feelings in non-monogamous relationships. Wow. Yeah. So a fun thing that happened in the hiatus that we’ve had so far is that I have a girlfriend now.

Christina: She’s incredible!

Drew: Yeah. I’m really, really happy. I am just, I feel like everyday sort of learning new definitions of what relationships and love and sex can be, and have not been this much of a romantic since I was in high school and it was all theoretical. So, I’m very happy, love to share that. I am like, okay. But also what happens when you’re, you know, in a relationship that you care about instead of, you know, just having hookups and fillings and stuff, is that you also are checking in more with your own boundaries and your partner’s boundaries as far as what you talk about. And look, all of this could be stuff that I didn’t share. And I just went into the question and was vague, but this is my version of being open by being like, explaining like certain reasons why I might be vague on the podcast moving forward, because I do think actually it’s important in our parasocial relationships we have with people who write or people who have podcasts that like, I don’t know, to talk about these things, to talk about like how I decide my boundaries, especially as someone who writes and talks about sex very graphically. Anyways, so all of that as a preamble to this question—

Christina: Context is king. That’s what we’re always saying.

Drew: Which is to say that like, I mean, in a way, like I’m, I’m in my first relationship, like as someone who’s open about being non-monogamous and navigating that and et cetera. And I think just speaking generally, like every relationship is its own conversation. And with the people who are in that relationship, everyone brings priorities and brings things that are like ideals into the relationship, and also, makes compromises and has discussions and — or doesn’t, and then that’s your own version of that. Right? And so I think it’s kind of an annoying answer, but it is sort of like, you have to both talk with yourself and talk with your partner or partners, and decide sort of, you know, what is necessary for you, you know, if you’re someone who’s monogamous and you start dating someone who’s non-monogamous, is that something you can get accustomed to? Are there certain things that make you comfortable? Is it more comfortable for you when your partner hooks up with someone that you all know and it’s casual and it’s whatever, or do you, is it more comfortable if they have other relationships, but they’re not around you at all? Or like all these — there’s so many ways to have non-monogamous relationships. And I don’t know if you’re asking this from the perspective of someone who is very free in non-monogamy and is potentially dating someone who isn’t, or vice versa. But I think that’s often a — I won’t even say a conflict, it’s just a part of being non-monogamous, I think, is that most people have different relationships to non-monogamy.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: For me personally, I could date someone who had several partners. But generally with non-monogamy, my ideal would be to date someone where I’m their partner, and then we are not monogamous. If I were to date someone, which isn’t the current situation that I’m in, where I was dating someone who wanted to have multiple partners, I would have to be like, okay, what are my feelings about this person? What are my feelings about how this person communicates? Do I think that that would be something that could work for me? And figure that out. And so there are relationship dynamics I could be in where I’m on one end and where I’m on the other end. And I think that just goes to show that like, it’s just about deciding if the person you’re dating — one, if your feelings for them are strong enough that it’s worth it, and also if you’re compatible enough in your desires that it can work, because sometimes you really like someone and they really like you, or you really love someone and they really love you, and it just doesn’t work out with what you both want from a relationship. And that’s sad, but it is also just the case. So whether or not to work through the hard feelings is always going to be case by case. And I think that it’s also very dependent on communication styles, because if you have good communication with the person or people you’re dating, you can work through a lot more than if you struggle to communicate. So those are all my rambling thoughts on this thing that I think about a lot.

Christina: I would like listeners to know that this is why I get six-minute voice memos from Drew. Though in fairness, she has not sent me a six-minute voice memo in a very long time.

Drew: It’s been a long time.

Christina: But that is usually the energy. And I do feel like I just spoke one into existence. I can’t wait for the next couple of days.

Drew: Do you think it’s because I’m in a relationship?

Christina: I know that it is.

Drew: I’m feeling insecure about that now. Yeah. Now I’m like, am I a bad friend now that I’m in a relationship?

Christina: I think it’s fine and beautiful and wonderful and great. And I’m not exactly clamoring to receive more six-minute voice memos.

Drew: I’m going to send you a six-minute voice memo about my relationship. Would that be fun? Would that be a fun thing for you to have?

Christina: I mean, yes, of course it would. You’re my friend.

Drew: Thank you. Okay. Moving on.

Christina: Moving on.

Drew: Let’s see. This voice memo is from Julia.

Julia: Hey Drew. Hey Christina. Here’s my question for y’all. If you could have any fictional queer character on the pod, who would it be and what dating topic would you discuss? Thanks for taking these Qs! Bye!

Christina: This is such a fun question.

Drew: This is a great question. My — honestly, and not to be incredibly Autostraddle about it, but my gut reaction was like, I would like a second season that is a sit down with every main character of The L Word. And just to be like, “What’s wrong with you?”

Drew: Yeah. Okay. So I’ve been making a concerted effort in both my brain and my writing, to talk about The L Word less, because I’m like, there’s so much other stuff out there and like, it is fun that we have this common language, but also, I don’t know, I was very frustrated with the last season. But when this question came in, the first thing I thought was like, Bette Porter, come on and talk about boundaries. We need to talk about: when is it okay to hook up with people you work with? When is it not okay? Is it usually not okay? Yes. So maybe we should talk about that. Yeah, so that would be fun, but also we don’t usually have guests on to roast them or to criticize them. We also have people on—

Christina: I think season 2 can be anything we want it to be.

Drew: That’s a great point. That’s a great point.

Christina: A good L Word character to have on would be GiGi. That would be fun.

Drew: She knows how to talk about—

Christina: She knows how to communicate. She knows how to have boundaries. She knows how to express desire. That would be very fun. But in a non-L Word, does anybody come up for you? Like in a non L word space? Let’s pull it back? Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Let’s do that challenge. Well now I’m just thinking about people who I want to be like, what’s your problem?

Christina: I know, it’s fine.

Drew: Which, maybe that should be the tone of season two, because like Hattie on Twenties, I also want to have a long talk with her about so many things, but I’m trying to think of someone who’s like Gigi style where I’m like, I’d want this person on because I think they could have some really good insight.

Christina: I mean, obviously for me, the answer is Julianna Margulies’ character on The Morning Show. I would like Laura Peterson to enter this space. She’s very good at talking about boundaries. She’s very good at expressing her feelings. She actually comes from a different universe than The Morning Show’s universe. I would just really like to talk to her about that and also her apartment. I really have a lot of questions.

Drew: Yeah. I think that my answer is Emma from Vida.

Christina: Ooh. Good one.

Drew: I’m trying to think what we would talk about. Is it because I mostly just want to have the excuse at the end of the episode to ask her if we were on a date and really lay on the flirting?

Christina: And that did factor into my Laura Peterson decision as well, of course.

Drew: Of course. But I also think that she is also someone who has a lot of boundaries in ways that — and then not doesn’t have boundaries — and I just think that she’s an interesting person where I would love to know like, post-one-night-stand etiquette. I think that’d be fun, because I think she’s someone who would be very good at being like, you cannot sleep over or here is your coffee, now go.

Christina: Having those little one liners to get people out of the door is really an important factor in a one night stand.

Drew: Yeah. Thank you for that question.

Christina: A banger question.

Drew: Very fun. I’m going to continue to daydream about that for a while. Let’s see. Okay. This next question is: from Annie.

Annie: Hey, girl, hey. First of all, I wanted to say that I love the podcast so much. I like how you both are so relatable all the damn time. But that’s not my question. My question is, how do you get back into dating? And how do you feel good about it, after a long relationship has ended? The last time I was single, I considered myself an 18-year-old Mormon boy, and now I’m a mom of three in her thirties and it’s so different. Help.

Drew: So I don’t have as extreme of a gap from 18-year-old Mormon boy, to mom in her thirties. But, when I started dating again in 2019, I was getting out of a three and a half year relationship where, when I got into it, I was a 21-year-old boy who wasn’t sure about his religion. And so I very much am like, look, there were so many challenges in my brain when I was first getting out into dating again, and so I’m sure those are heightened for you. I think the thing that I could say is that it’s really fun. Like, okay. So not to make this an episode where I just gush about having a girlfriend who I’m in love with, but I was talking to my dad of all people, about—

Christina: Bringing dads into this space.

Drew: I know — about being happy and my dad was like, “Oh, well, do you think it’s because this is the first relationship that you’ve gotten into as yourself?

Christina: First of all, dad! That’s so sweet!

Drew: Very sweet, I know, very sweet dad comments.

Christina: Go off, King.

Drew: And I was like — very funny for you to call my dad king — but I was like, oh, that’s really interesting. And I think it’s both true in relationships where you’re in love and building a partnership, and also with one night stands and casual dates and whatever that, like, as hard as it is to get back out there. And especially like it’s a totally new world to be dating as a woman dating as a queer person. Those are all so new. Dating as someone who’s an adult instead of a teenager. Those are all such different things. And I guess I just would say: Know that not only will you have meaningful, beautiful experiences, but you’re also going to have just a lot of fun, and a lot of fun with other people. A lot of fun just with yourself and just feeling what it’s like to date. I mean, you know, my dad was being very much like, cis straight dad language, I don’t necessarily like language of like, “You’re yourself now.” That’s a little bit, like, whatever. But there is something to that, right? I think even just getting older, even putting transness aside, it’s so fun to meet people on a level where you’ve done so much work on yourself to be the person you are.

Christina: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say.

Drew: Yeah. Take it away.

Christina: Absolutely. I mean, well, the first thing I was going to say was literally the complete opposite of Drew’s, which was: Accept that it’s going to be hard, and that’s also fine. Because it will be, right? It’s going to be a bit of a challenge, and it’s going to feel weird, and you’re not going to nail it every time. And that’s part of being a person. And that is something that, when I am in my fits and spurts of dating, is like, I just have to let myself be like, look, you’re not going to enjoy every second of it. And that’s also life and that’s okay. And it does get easier, which is the other part of dating, which is like anything else, it is practice, you have to practice it to be better at it. And once you get past those like initial challenges and stumbles, like, yeah, then you’re going to go out and have dates and meet fun people and learn new things about yourself. And that’s really fun. You can have both the fun and the hard thing.

Drew: Absolutely. Definitely be easy on yourself, as you’re getting back out there. And, you know, I look back on the last few years as such a learning experience for me and, it’s sort of wild that a lot of that was happening — I mean, not in public in the way that like, you know, someone like Elliott Page — but Elliott Page isn’t writing a bunch of personal essays about their sex life. So it is interesting. I sometimes will go back and read essays I wrote, I don’t know, two years ago. And I’m like, this is a different person.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And, but also like, I feel really, I feel a lot of love towards that person. That first year of dating again Drew was like, oh boy, like definitely made some mistakes. There definitely were some very rough times. And there were also some really fun times. And with each passing month, each passing year, it’s gotten better and better. So, I think that’s a really good point, Christina, because it might be hard and that is okay. But just remember that it’s also going to be really great and I’m honestly just really excited for you!

Christina: Those are the two polarities of our pod, me being like, “It will be a challenge, but you will come out of the fires forged and renewed!” And Drew’s like, “You’re going to have so much fun!”

Drew: Isn’t fire fun?! Isn’t being forged in the fire just a real hoot?! Yeah.

Christina: It’s Sag season, for the listeners who need to know that.

Drew: I love Sag season. It’s my favorite time of year. Okay. This next question is from Nick, and it is — there’s no voice memo, so I’m just gonna read it. “Hey guys! Love the pod. Question for ya. You know that thing — Drew, you’ve talked about it — that queer women do where the first date is this long, 8-to-10-hour whirlwind of getting to know each other and intense, passionate feelings. What happens when you’ve gotten used to that as a roadmap for lesbian dating, and then down the line, you meet people and don’t have that experience? You maybe like them just fine, or you don’t quite know yet, or you have a drink or two and then need to go home and think about whether you want to keep seeing them? How do you stop from convincing yourself that the person is not right for you, because it’s supposed to feel passionate and intense from the jump. I’m struggling with getting past the first three days or so with people who are perfectly lovely, but who don’t make me feel intense and crazy? I have a feeling this is unhealthy, but I can’t put my finger on it. Any thoughts are appreciated.”

Christina: I really love this question. I think this is such a good part of dating that we romanticize and don’t think about necessarily like, well, what’s on the other side of that? Like what happens when you don’t have that, you know, 48 hour, you know, together from the first second you saw each other until a week later and all your friends are like, “Are you dead though? Where are you?” And I don’t know, for me, I think having, not necessarily like a, “Oh, I don’t know about this person,” but having, for me, it is more like, I want to feel comfortable with the person that I’m dating. So like, kind of, regardless of whether I feel very intensely passionate about them, which let’s be honest, I don’t tend to feel that way about many people aside from myself. Um, so feeling like I can be the person that I am with somebody new, that is the thing that makes me feel like, “Oh, there’s really something here. And it’s not necessarily for me about that intense, passionate feeling. Because whenever I feel that feeling, I’m like, something’s wrong, this can’t last. This is going to burn out. And then what’s it going to look like? That feeling stresses me out more than makes me feel like, oh, this is really exciting and new.

Drew: Yeah. I have two pieces of advice. The first one is general and it’s good advice. And the second one is very specific and it’s very bad advice. So starting with the good advice—

Christina: Iconic.

Drew: —is that I think the best way of dealing with this is by setting your own boundaries personally. So you don’t spend 8 to 10 hours with someone on a first date. So let’s say you go on a date, you get coffee. It’s like two hours. It’s perfectly pleasant. You think they’re cute, but you don’t feel, whatever, this crazy buzzy feeling, which I would like to agree with Christina. That usually is not a great sign. It can be, but it can also be a problem. So, I think you don’t see that person again that week. Maybe you wait another week to see them. You stretch it out longer to allow the relationship that’s forming to sort of take the time it needs. You sort of just don’t attach outcomes to it. And you’re just like, oh, I had a nice coffee with someone that lasted a couple hours and now it’s gonna, who knows. And you know, if they want to see you again and you want to see them again, go for it. But I think that’s something that I had to work on and learn to do, where I’d be like, “I want to know! Is this person the person who I want to start dating? Do I want to have sex with this person? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.” And it’s like, I don’t know, maybe not. Do you want to see this person again? Yes? Cool. Do you want to see this person again today? No. You just talked to them for two hours and that was enough? Like, okay. Do you want to see them again in three weeks? You can do that. You can like, I mean, as long as they want to also take it that slow, you can sort of set those boundaries where you do. And then the very specific advice that is maybe not very healthy.

Christina: I’m excited for this one.

Drew: I mean, I think that I tricked myself into getting into a relationship, and it’s because my girlfriend lives in another country — I know, stereotypical, blah, blah, blah. But there was a year of us flirting on Instagram, I don’t know, once a month in the beginning? Very casual, I mean, I talked about this during the season of having people who are just around on Instagram to flirt with because it’s fun. She was one of those people for me, because it was like, it’s a pandemic and you live in another country, this isn’t going to be real. And so, you know, when we first followed each other, it’s not like I was like, “Oh my God. I have an Instagram mutual who’s the love of my life.” I just was like, oh, this is a hot person who lives far away, so the stakes are low. Cool. And then it gradually got deeper and deeper. And then we started FaceTiming like a year into that flirting and then like, so it’s interesting to think about my current relationship in the context of being like, “Oh it actually went really slow. And actually the feelings developed really slowly. I just didn’t know that’s what was happening. So I tricked myself into being open to it being anything, which actually circles back to the general good advice, which is like, just don’t be attached to what something’s going to be. You don’t need to date someone who lives in another country and flirt with them on Instagram for a year during a pandemic, but the pandemic’s not ending, you probably have another year. So, um, you could!

Christina: Dark, but true. I’m also fascinated that you characterize that as bad advice, because that feels like the same thing. It’s just a very specific-to-you scenario, but it is the same, but you’re encouraging a slowdown, taking your time, not putting all of your efforts and energies into one person from jump.

Drew: Yeah. I guess I’m just saying, there are challenges to a long distance relationship and you don’t need to fulfill the cliche of dating someone who lives in another country — though lots of hot people live in other countries.

Christina: Huge, if true.

Drew: You know? Okay. Let’s see this next one. Okay. This next one from Rachel also does not have a voice memo, so I’m going to read it.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Or do you want to read it, Christina?

Christina: I’m happy to read it if you want me to read it.

Drew: Go for it.

Christina: “I’ve always heard about scissoring slash trimming in the mainstream. Then I learned from the lesbian internet that scissoring was not a real thing. So that was my assumption for years. I tried it with a couple of girlfriends and it was never really enjoyable. I’m in a new relationship now and it’s all we do, and it’s amazing! What are your thoughts on scissoring/trimming personally? What are your thoughts on how it’s represented in straight culture and its reputation in lesbian culture? Keep up the great work. Best regards, Rachel.” Oh, the question of scissoring that comes down from the mountains, you know, it’s such a… I don’t know. I feel like if it works, it works, you know? It is not possibly my favorite sexual activity. It is something I have done to mixed and better results. But like, if you are in a relationship and you guys are doing it all the time and you’re loving it, go the hell off.

Drew: Yeah. I sorta just think in general, one of the best things about lesbian sex, queer sex, et cetera, is that like, it can be anything. And I get the frustration with media representations of being like, “Oh, what they’re doing in Blue Is the Warmest Color isn’t even like, you know, isn’t even good, blah, blah, blah.” And it’s like, sure. I also have had friends be like, “I feel really guilty because the sex scenes in Blue Is the Warmest Color is exactly how I was having lesbian sex as a teenager, and it was really hot and good.” And I’m like, honestly, good for you that you were having lesbian sex as a teenager.

Christina: Yeah, brag.

Drew: And so like, I don’t know. I mean, as someone who doesn’t have a vagina, my experiences of, like, what scissoring is to me, like, I don’t know, I love grinding. I love a good make out where you’re rubbing up against each other. I don’t know if I’m in the exact position that could qualify as scissoring. I’m sure Cosmo has another name for whatever I’m doing. Well, I’m sure Cosmo doesn’t have a name for specifically what I’m doing, but I’m sure it was a name for whatever position my body is with another person. But I just am like, I don’t know, if it’s… yeah. If it feels, if it to quote Julia Nunes, “if it feels good, do it,” you know what I mean?

Christina: Yeah, that is kind of my motto for kind of all sex. You like what you’re doing, and the person you’re doing it with also likes what you’re doing, simply go off.

Drew: Yeah. I also feel like the more that queer sex is shown on screen from queer filmmakers, which I should say in a mainstream setting, because Barbara Hammer was shooting… like, sex… like, you know, decades ago and it’s great. And you should watch it. But the more I think that hopefully we’ll get away from this idea that things have to be certain ways. I mean I was talking, I think I was talking to Riese about this, that when strap ons appeared — the one time there was a strap on on the original L Word, there were people who had problems with it. And it’s so interesting as someone who came of lesbian age later, that like everyone I know uses it — or not uses strap ons, because some people don’t like it, but it’s like, there’s no stigma attached to wanting—

Christina: Yeah, it’s a very culturally accepted experience. I do think something that’s interesting about specifically scissoring is that it’s like a flagging. It’s more, I feel like the concept of scissoring and the imagery of scissoring, like specifically two scissors, is more just to flag gayness than it is actually talked about the actual sex acts itself, which is just a fascinating way that we use language and culture and imagery to be the people we are in the world.

Drew: Absolutely. Get your scissoring merch at autostraddle.com. I’ll put links to all of the scissoring merchandise that Autostraddle sells. Get it in time for the holidays! This ad is impromptu.

Christina: But beautiful.

Drew: Thanks. Okay. This next voicemail, I think, is submitted anonymously. And if you wanted a shout out and we didn’t give you a shout out, because — just know, well, just know that it is coming from a place of, we don’t want to accidentally out anyone. So, we love you very much, and just know that we read your name and we love you.

Christina: And you’re going to hear your voice. So know that it’s you.

Anonymous Asker: I have a crush, okay, crush on a close friend. And if I’m being honest, I’m probably not going to do anything about it. I just don’t know how to move on, because we talk a lot and we like… we around each other a lot. How do you move on from that?

Christina: Yeah, who hasn’t been there?

Drew: I mean, there’s the good advice, which is like, maybe you need some distance from your friend, but I understand that sometimes that’s not a thing.

Christina: Yeah. Um, but I think it is, it can be a thing you just have to figure out the way to make it a thing for you.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I mean, it really is the only thing that helps, right? Like how are you going to get over a crush on someone that you hang out with and talk to all the time?

Drew: I will say that I think sometimes you can create distance without it being — this is, wow, the opposite of my usual direct communication recommendation, which is that if you are like — for whatever reason, you’re not going to tell this friend, I would also say like, why not? Is it coming from a place of fear or is it coming from a place of like, oh, this person is in a very happy, monogamous relationship, but I’m not trying to be a messy L Word character? Depending on what the circumstances are, because probably pulling away is the best move. If it’s like, “I don’t want to ruin this friendship,” I have found, as evidenced by this podcast, that sometimes being direct about your feelings and working through them, you can get to friendship that moves beyond that way quicker than if you just kept it inside. So that’s one thought, but if you truly aren’t ever going to say anything and you don’t want to say anything, I think you can — let’s say you talk to this person every day. You can stop talking to this person every day. Right? You don’t have to be like, you don’t have to have a formal friend breakup or disappear or whatever. You can just take some distance, be like, oh, “maybe this person isn’t always my plus one when I” — I mean, are we going to events again? But like, you know, isn’t always your go-to person to call at the end of the night or whatever. You can start to just pull away a little bit and create some more ideas of what you want that friendship to be. And that’s also, I think, a really important thing is being honest with yourself. Do you want this person to be your friend? Or are you just so in love with them that you’re like, “well, I at least want to be around them. I at least want them to be my friend,” you know, because the difference between unrequited love and friendship are very different and it doesn’t mean that one can’t lead to the other or they can’t happen at the same time or whatever. But I think it is important to think about what friendship is to you? And do you want a friendship with this person? And what kind of friendship do you want with this person? And then just taking the steps to make that happen.

Christina: Yeah, I would say basically the same thing. I mean, I’ve definitely been in scenarios in which it was the better choice to have clear communication and to say, “I actually need to step back from this for whatever period of time, because of my feelings.” And then I’ve also done like the, you know, I actually don’t have to text this person about this thing at this moment. That can wait, or I don’t need to do it right now, or I don’t need to do it tomorrow even. I think both can be helpful, and I agree with Drew, I find that being honest and communicating that is usually the best way, but I think that does also involve you taking the time to be honest with yourself about what you want out of this friendship and why you’re fine having these feelings and not doing anything about it and what you maybe are trying to avoid in doing that and what you’re trying to, you know, let yourself just be like, oh, I’m just going to hang out in this kind of in-between space where I have these feelings, but I don’t want to do anything about them. Like, why don’t you want to do anything about that? Maybe take some time to interrogate yourself on that. And whatever answer, you know, you find within yourself, then you can decide how you want to move on. But I do think creating some space, whether it be very communicated and intentional, or just kind of pulling back a little bit will be helpful for you.

Drew: Yeah. Absolutely. This next one is another one where I’m not going to say who it’s from, but, this is actually maybe my favorite one because it is nine seconds long and is just, well, I’ll let it speak for itself.

Anonymous Asker: Hey there. So I’m a pretty shy and reserved person sexually, but I am ready for a ho phase. Where do I start?

Drew: Beautiful.

Christina: I think that is what art is. I think, welcome to Sag season. I think, go the hell off. I also think, I actually don’t know where you start. I mean, I guess you just start dating, right? Like you start by dating?

Drew: I don’t know. I mean, I’ve had a very complicated relationship with my own sluttiness my entire life where I’ve always wanted to be sluttier than I actually am. And I think it’s also funny sometimes when I — I mean, I think if you listen to this podcast, you’ve had the whole scope of where I fall along all sorts of things. But sometimes, based on just individual essays or certain Twitter presences or something, people will think that I’m way more, I don’t know, slutty than I am, where I’m like, I am, but I just like, I’m slutty in my own way. And I think for me… yeah, you just start dating and you also think about what that means to you. Are you just trying to rack up numbers and experiences? Are you trying to try out new things? I mean, I’ve never been someone who’s going to sex parties, it’s just never been my thing. It’s some people’s thing.

Christina: Maybe it’s your thing!

Drew: Yeah, some people who are shy and reserved sexually, that’s where they blossom. That’s not where I have, but if you feel like you want to do that, I very much support that. I also think that it helps to be specific about what you want if you’re on a dating app or whatever that, you know, you can put in your — I mean, some people are very, like, in their bio, like, “I just want someone to sit on my face,” or whatever.

Christina: Down to fuck.

Drew: And you don’t have to, if that’s not your personality, you don’t need to have that, but you can just be like, “looking for something casual,” is even like, enough to whatever. And then when you start talking in the dating app or whatever, you can lead with your sexuality, your flirtatiousness can be, instead of getting to know each other questions, it can be more of a thing of being like, “so what are you into?” You know, just sort of casual, whatever, and you also can be honest with people about sort of like where you’re at.

Christina: Yes, that was going to be my big suggestion to be like, whatever you do, as long as when you are dating people that you are pretty clear about wanting to not be in a serious relationship, wanting to keep it casual, you are probably going to be dating and seeing other people, like, just being clear with your communication around what your expectations are for the relationship and letting the person that you are with or talking to decide if they want to enter into that space with you.

Drew: Yeah. And if you’re someone who — I don’t know if you’re coming to this from a place of life, always sort of being in monogamous relationships and you want to be single for awhile, or if you were often just not hooking up with anyone and now are like, I want to get out there and have a lot of sex. If it’s the first one, I think it’s also being aware of the connections you’re making. There are people who, when I was first single after my last relationship where I was like, I don’t… I just sort of stopped myself from going much further with them, because I was like, I feel like this is something more than a hookup. And some of those people are actually my close friends now, and we never hooked up. But it’s just something to be aware of that you can have whatever types of relationships, types of experiences you want to have as long as you’re deliberate about wanting to have those things and having a little bit of patience.

Christina: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that you’re going to have a great time and I’m really excited for you.

Drew: Yeah, me too. Okay. This one also doesn’t have a voice memo, so I’m going to read it.

“Greetings. The theme of my questions is, ‘things I’ve Googled recently hoping to find that there is an Autostraddle article.’ How soon into sleeping with someone does one introduce sex toys? How can you tell if a friend or acquaintance is flirting with you? If your advice is to just ask, how do you ask them? Should I get my friends with benefits latex free dental dams for her graduation? Or is that too much? Listening to you both is such a joy. Thanks for providing the lovely podcast.”

Drew: Should we take these one by one?

Christina: Yeah. How soon into sleeping with someone do you introduce a sex toy? I feel like when you want to use a sex toy, is my answer for that. Obviously we have conversations around sex and consent is cool. Don’t surprise someone with a sex toy in the middle of sex, but like, I don’t know. Whenever you want to use one, you throw it out.

Drew: It can be the first time.

Christina: I truly have never really considered when to add in a sex toy in sex. It’s never been part of the processing, I guess, for me in having sex. It’s just a thing that comes up sometimes.

Drew: I think there’ve been periods in my life where I was more hesitant to bring out sex toys the first time I hooked up with people, just because it felt like, I don’t know, it somehow felt more personal to reveal what I own, what I’m into. But I think I’ve gotten over that a little bit. I honestly am like, you can have good sex the first time you have sex with someone. But also, I think what you said was right, like, whenever you want to, so if the first time you have sex with someone you wanted to not have sex toys and you have other boundaries of what you want that experience to be like, that’s fine. But also you totally, the first time you have sex with someone can be like, “Hey, I’m into using this. Are you into using this?” Just as long as you talk about it.

Christina: Yeah. I think part of having sex with people is talking about what you’re into and if you’re into using sex toys when you have sex, that absolutely should be part of the convo, and then let it flow joyously from there. That sounded disgusting, but I’m sorry.

Drew: Let it flow, baby. How can you tell if a friend or acquaintance is flirting with you? If your advice is to just ask, how do you ask them?

Christina: Famously I can’t, so it’s kind of my brand.

Drew: I mean, everyone has different flirting styles, so the only way to know is to ask. I mean, we have like cultural signifiers where things are flirtier, but there are people who will literally ask you personal sex questions, and they’re like, “I’m just a friend. This is just who I am. I’m just a Gemini.” You know, whatever. And that’s great for them, but there’s no catch-all way. So yeah, you do have to ask. And how?

Christina: I feel like the how depends on what you want to do about it?

Drew: Right.

Christina: Because if it’s a friend or acquaintance who is flirting with you that you have been flirting with, and are interested in, then you can kind of lead with a, “Hey, I think you’re really cool, hot, cute, whatever. I would like to grab a drink, get a coffee. Are you into that?” But if it’s a person who you’re not — well, I don’t know why you would ask a person that you’re not interested in if they’re flirting with you.

Drew: You should just let that be. Just let them deal with that in their own… You can send a seven minute voice memo that starts with like, “I’m just going to say my piece.”

Christina: And you should always be just saying your piece. It’s very dramatic and very fun.

Drew: I don’t, I still don’t know if it’s — is it P-E-A-C-E, or P-I-E-C-E?

Christina: I think it’s P-I-E-C-E, because it’s like your piece of—

Drew: Information. Like “I’m just going to say my peace.”

Christina: I’m just going to say my vibe.

Drew: I’m so glad I could learn that. I’ve actually been wondering that for about a year. Great. And then the last one is, is getting your friends with benefits latex free dental dams for graduation too much? Only you know your relationship with this friends with benefits. I think potentially no, if friends with benefits, you’re already having sex?

Christina: Right? I mean, I was just like, ooh, I have never in my life used a dental dam, so, God bless. I just was like, yeah, if you’re already having sex, I feel like go off.

Drew: Yeah. I never have either. But Ro wrote this really great piece for us recently about dental dams that was really informative and really changed my mind on a lot of things. But yeah, if that’s the sort of relationship you have, I don’t think it’s inherently too much, no. Thanks for all the questions! Okay, so this next one is from Saida.

Saida: Hey, besties, longtime listener here. I’m really curious what your thoughts are on lesbian cruising. Does it exist? Are there lesbians that cruise? Do you have any relevant experience you wanted to share? Let me know.

Christina: Well, I love this.

Drew: I love this too. So one of my best friends — Daniel, hi, how are you doing? — is a gay man and the stories that he tells of just being like, “Yeah, I was getting work done at a coffee shop and I made eye contact with someone and then we were fucking in the bathroom,” and I’m just like, what?! That’s crazy. How? What? So, is there a lesbian version of that? I mean, I hope somewhere in the world, I’ve never experienced that.

Christina: My gut says that there has to be, right? There has to be some sort of utopian zone where this happens in the world. I just refuse to believe that the world is as big as it is, and it happens to nowhere. That just seems like a bummer. But I do think, my gut says that it’s also probably more something that occurs in a formalized sex setting, like a sex party environment, or some sort of party that is not maybe explicitly a sex party, but everybody’s kind of got a vibe. I do know a few people who are always flagging out in the world, and I do feel like that is adjacent? But no, I’ve never in my life experienced, made eye contact with somebody and then two seconds later we’re fucking, and we don’t speak again. And that’s just over. I find that mind boggling. I find it inspirational, but I just can’t see it happening.

Drew: I also wonder if it would happen more in spaces where everyone — not everyone is queer — but you know, is it happening in a major city where there’s a major queer culture versus happening in places where queerness has to be a little bit more underground? I’d be curious where that would happen more, because I don’t know. It was interesting this summer, being in Covington, Kentucky, and the energy — I mean, I certainly did not make eye contact with someone and hook up — but it’s just being like, oh, there’s this bar that isn’t a lesbian bar, but people know about it and like going there and meeting people and we talked and had conversations first, so I wonder if that’s somewhere where that could manifest. I don’t have any personal experience to talk about this with confidence, but I do find it interesting, and if anyone else has these experiences, congratulations.

Christina: Also, where are you? Email us and tell us where you’re located. We’ll take a Wait, Is This a Date tour.

Drew: I think I’m always just so interested because, as we’ve evidenced on this podcast, I am more of the route of like: “Hi, so, I have feelings for you,” or, “I think you’re hot, and maybe we should hook up?” But very direct and awkward. I’m fascinated by the smoldering-eye-contact-to-fucking pipeline that I don’t know how that happens. That is such an interesting thing to me. I’ve never — I even struggle with that at dance parties, where people are like, oh, you’re dancing at a club. And then you make out with the person you’re dancing with. I’m like, but how? When? That’s not a thing that’s happened to me. Even when I’ve had hookups, like random hookups at bars or clubs or whatever, there’s definitely a period of time where we’re in line at the bathroom and are having a long chat. Maybe I’m a very verbal person? I don’t know, but I’m very interested in—

Christina: Maybe?! You said MAYBE I’m a very verbal person? Calm down. Calm down, Drew. No, I mean, I definitely have done the weird, you know, out dancing at a club and then we’re making out. That one feels pretty easy because dancing is pretty sexual. It just feels so—

Drew: Do you kiss them? Or they kiss — I mean, you’re very bottomy, so is it—

Christina: Thank you. I’ve done both.

Drew: So you’re dancing, you’re grinding. Interesting. And you just — this is where I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s leftover shame stuff, but the idea of like — even someone is fully, like their crotch is in my crotch or in my butt, or my butt’s in their crotch. There’s definitely a sexier way to describe that. But like, even in that circumstance, the idea of then leaning over and starting to make out with them or leaning back and starting to make out with them, it feels so terrifying to me.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, in retrospect it feels like a wild thing that I’m like, I can’t believe I’ve done that. Like, what is, what, who was she? What a young spirit. But yeah, no, it didn’t. I mean, if it felt awkward in the moment, I suppose I wouldn’t have done it. So I guess I was feeling foot loose and fancy free.

Drew: Wow. I love that.

Christina: I said like a 95-year-old woman.

Drew: “Back in the thirties when I was doing this.” Okay, so this last question we got is a two-parter.

Christina: Do you want to read the first part and then I’ll read the second part?

Drew: Great.

“Dearest Christina and Drew, how do I start dating again after what feels like an eternity of avoiding it? I haven’t dated for three years and haven’t intentionally sought out dates in — well, I’m not even certain I’ve ever intentionally sought out dates before. I came out as a trans woman two years ago and made the conscious decision at that point to stop myself from passively and accidentally falling into relationships like I had been doing on and off since high school and through college. With the new and exciting feelings of all this gender business, I’ve been thinking that I might try to start dating again in the next few months, and I want to be intentional about it, but I’m really not sure where to start. Outside of work, I barely know anyone in the city I moved to just before the Panorama started. Do I just fire up one of the old dating apps? Do people just go to bars or whatever by themselves to try to meet people? I flirt with people on Twitter sometimes. Is that anything? Please send me your wisdom! From a lovelorned lesbian in Columbus.”

Drew: And then we got a follow up email:

Christina:

“Hi again, dearest Christina and Drew! I guess there are additional details to my question. Apparently Twitter is a dating app because a trans mutual on Twitter and I figured out we coincidentally live in the same town and she randomly asked me out after I sent this email???” Three question marks. “So I guess I’m officially dating again???” Three question marks. “We had a real Wait, Is This a Date? night where we watched punk lesbian anime and made out, but now she invited me over for dinner for a real date, TM, and I am 99% sure we’re going to fuck. My question now is when do I jump into the protection and sexual history question? We’ve been sexting, so do I toss it in there? Or do I wait until the moment where I’m at her place, and we’re about to fuck to ask if she sleeps around and if so regularly STI tests? Please help!”

Christina: Iconic.

Drew: I would like you to say that this one is signed off as—

Christina: “Love, an apparently T-for-T lesbian now. Incredible work.

Drew: Amazing. I’m so happy to hear this. Yes. Twitter is obviously a dating app. As far as the protection and STI testing stuff. That’s a personal thing for you, right? Like you can fully, ahead of time, ask for them to get tested before you have sex, or if you’re making out again, be like, “I want to get tested first.” And you can obviously ask for slash use whatever protection that you want during, and, you know, have that conversation with this person. I mean, for me personally, I take sort of a personal responsibility approach in the sense that I protect myself the way that I feel good about. And then there are things that I will do and not do with certain partners who I trust or don’t trust. To me, I’m not someone who would ever ask for an STI test, or ask someone’s sexual history in that way. That just, for me, doesn’t feel right. And I just would rather, if you know, I’m having an ongoing relationship with someone and want to do certain things, I just, it’s going to depend on a level of trust with that person.And then if they had something that they would tell me, they would tell me, or sometimes it’s something that they don’t need to tell me because they’re dealing with it and whatever. So I don’t know. I think my relationship to STIs in general is sort of one of letting it be on my partners to disclose. And I just go into every sexual encounter I have knowing the risks and then making choices about what acts to do and what not to do. But that’s a personal thing. That’s a personal thing for me.

Christina: Yeah, I think I’m pretty similar. If I’m having sex with a person, I will use the protection that I feel in that moment is the protection that works for me in that situation. But I’ve never had like a sit-down conversation about your sexual history and your other partners, that doesn’t necessarily seem like my business and not something that I would expect a partner to tell me all of their sexual partners. If we were having sex that was maybe less safe than I would incur, I would want to have that conversation, but I would be like, I’m going to protect myself very similar to Drew, I will be using the protection that I feel like we need in this moment. And then whatever you feel like disclosing past that is kind of your business. But I do think if this is a conversation that you like having with your sexual partners, you are in the space to do so. You’ve made out, you’re sexting. You’re going over for dinner. Now is the time I probably would do that conversation in person, perhaps at said dinner. But yeah, I think this is the space. This is the space to have that conversation.

Drew: Yeah, and it that means you don’t do certain things sexually the next time — like when you go to this real date, like, it sounds like this is going to be an ongoing thing. And it sounds really exciting. So the second real date to do certain sexual things that you both want to do together, that seems fine. But you can’t ask ahead of time if you want to, but yeah, it’s, I think this is sort of a personal thing, but you’re definitely in the space now, where you totally could.

Christina: You’re in a fun zone. You’re in the, we made out, we’re sexting. I’m going for dinner. This is the fun part. How fun!

Drew: I know, I’m so excited. I love it.

Christina: Have a damn ball.

Drew: I love the dates, like the first one was sent on November 8th and the second on November 17th. Incredible.

Christina: I think that’s beautiful.

Drew: An inspiring story for everyone else at home. Wow. Well, thank you all so much for these questions. We’re going to finish up with a little crush corner. Christina, do you have someone or should I go first?

Christina: You should go first.

Drew: Well, I have three crushes this week.

Christina: Wow!

Drew: That all worked on the same movie because it comes out this week. The movie is called The Novice. It is written and directed by Lauren Hadaway, and stars Isabelle Fuhrman and as her love interest, Dilone. And all three of them are hot and the movie is incredible and you should really, really go see this movie because all three of them are hot. And also because it’s an incredible movie and I don’t know why you would need more reasons than that.

Christina: That’s incredible. That’s beautiful stuff. I have realized, of course we are in the tail end of everyone’s favorite Sunday night HBO program, except for Drew, famously, Succession. And my crush, of course, is J. Smith-Cameron. She’s the lock screen of my iPad. I think Gerri’s really inspirational. I think, much like everybody else on Succession, she is the living worst, but she’s good at what she does. And I think that’s really beautiful, because I think if you’re going to be a terrible person, do it well. I don’t want to watch you be a terrible person badly. Commit to the bit or don’t. And I think that Gerri’s very good at being like, “yeah, no, I’m not going to get played because I’m fucking general counsel.” And I think it’s really inspirational and I hope she’s having a great time. I hope she’s having a great life being married to Kenneth Lonergan. I think they’re in Rome right now. They seem to be having a nice time. Go off, J.

Drew: I would like to clarify that I’ve never seen Succession, and that’s why it’s not my obsession. It could be great. I just haven’t seen it. I do love J. Smith-Cameron though, because I am a stand of Margaret and that is a great movie and she’s great in it.

Christina: She’s great.

Drew: So I support you in this crush.

Christina: Thank you so much. Well, that wraps up our mailbag, I guess. Thank you all for sending us such incredible voice memos and emails, and again, the ones that we didn’t talk about are mostly because we want to really dedicate a full episode with people who know more than we do. We know a lot, but we don’t know everything. So we’re making space for expertise in this moment. And I think that’s really important.

Drew: Slash, the ones that were just really nice and really nice to listen to. And you know, I love, I love a little bit of praise and a little bit of connecting with other queers across this internet space. It’s good times. And you know, we’re starting to have some conversations about the future, so this is not the last that you’ve heard, that you’ll hear from us — are those the words I’m trying to say here?

Christina: There it is.

Drew: And we’re really excited. So, have a great rest of your year, happy holidays, whatever that means to you and happy new year, whatever that means to you.

Christina: What else could “happy new year” mean, really?

Drew: I mean, sometimes New Year’s Eve is a rough night, you know?

Christina: It’s never been one of my favorite holidays. It does just always mean there’s gonna be a new year. There’s kind of no getting around it.

Drew: By this calendar, sure, but sometimes you maybe want to pretend like it’s not going to be a new, you know, or you want to just immediately be like, we’re already in 2022. I don’t want to reflect at all. And that’s your right.

Christina: That is. That’s very true.

Drew: So, see you in 2022!

Christina: Peace!

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme is written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar. And this podcast was edited, produced and mixed by Lauren Klein. You can find me online @C_GraceT on twitter.com, the website. And you can find me on Instagram @christina_gracet.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew, in a voice memo: Being in love is so embarrassing. I’m, like, excited for my girlfriend to meet my parents. Like actually excited. Gross

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 110: It’s In the Stars (and Cards)

How could we talk about queer dating without talking about astrology and tarot? Whether you’re swapping charts with your crush or showing off your latest deck, astrology and tarot are often go-to spiritual practices for your average queer.

To talk about all things astrology and tarot, we have Autostraddle writer and professional tarot reader Meg Jones Wall of 3am.tarot. We get into their role in queer community and queer dating and then Meg reads Drew (that’s me) and Christina’s cards!

This very special episode of Wait, Is This a Date? is our season one finale! If you liked our first season leave us a review and we hope to be back with even more queer dating soon.

SHOW NOTES

+ This is our finale but we’ll be doing a special mail bag episode! So if you have any questions for Christina and I send us a voice memo under 30 seconds to waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

+ My best friend’s mom who does tarotpy is Lauren Schneider and here’s a link to her book.

+ Check out the site for Meg’s 3am.tarot!

+ My essay about Co-Star and sex and Fleabag).

+ The This Might Hurt tarot deck is currently out of stock but the next print is expected to be back this month! Also fun fact: in addition to being an incredible artist Isabella Rotman was also my roommate at A-Camp! They’re the best and I can’t wait to buy this deck when it’s back in stock!

+ Meg took a beautiful photo of the cards she pulled for Christina and I:

Six tarot cards from the This Might Hurt deck on a grey wood background: The World, Four of Cups, Page of Swords, Three of Swords, Two of Wands

+ If you’re not familiar with Hadestown, how about starting with the 2019 Tony’s performance?

+ And continuing the theatre love, here’s Shoshana Bean singing “Defying Gravity”?

+ All of Marlon Riggs’ films are available in the Criterion Collection!!

Meg: So the four of cups is kind of a card of emotional boundaries. And sometimes that can be a really good empowering thing. And sometimes it can be a sign that you might be holding back a little bit from being vulnerable, or… I know. I told you this is where it starts to get weird.

Christina: Come on! Wow. That is accurate and scathing. And I love it. I feel so alive.

Meg: That’s what I’m here for. It’s what I’m here for.

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And this is, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to answering the age old question: wait, is this a date?

Drew: Can you believe that this is our season one finale? That this used to just be an idea that we had, and now it’s a podcast.

Christina: Not even a year ago was this an idea we had.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: We’ve really kind of nailed it. I thought I was going to come up with some sort of fanfare like a musical interlude. It might be for the best that I didn’t, but I just want the listeners and you, I guess, to know that I have thought that at one moment.

Drew: Well, I would say that that’s a great reason to have a season two, would be for you to have time to come up with some musical interludes.

Christina: Yeah, I think moving forward, moving into a season two place, I’d like to also move into a more musical place.

Drew: I love that, which by the way, if you want a second season, you could like give us a review or not, but—

Christina: No, you have to review us.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: And it needs to be said that anything less than five stars is absolutely homophobic and you shouldn’t be doing that, so.

Drew: If you gave us four stars and had something that was really detailed and interesting to say in your review, I would take that and find that interesting.

Christina: I would not, I would take it as homophobia, so.

Drew: So there you go. That’s the difference between us.

Christina: There’s two types of people in this world.

Drew: Another thing is that, even though this is our last episode of the season, we are going to have a little special Q&A sort of episode. So send us your questions is what I’m saying and we would love to be sent, because we love voice memos here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Love them.

Drew: We would love to have it in the form of voice memos, but the shorter your voice memo, the more likely it is to be included in this episode. So Christina, what timeframe do you think?

Christina: I want you to give me a tight 30 seconds. I think you can do it. And I think it’s actually really good practice for a voice memo, as a person, to just learn how to get that information in-out 30 seconds, I believe in you all. And I trust that you can do it.

Drew: And send them to waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Yep. Gmail. Don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s a cool website, email, domain place. Pretty tight. Have we introduced ourselves, question?

Drew: No. Oh, great point. Great point. Great point, no.

Christina: Just wanted to touch base with regard to that.

Drew: I mean, we’re pretty late in this. I just am like, people, I mean, I guess you could be starting. If you are starting on episode 10, my name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer and now, I’m mixing up the different episodes. I’m a writer, I’m a trans woman, I’m a filmmaker. I’m a lesbian and queer person. And I guess I’m a podcaster.

Christina: You are babe, kind of definitively. Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I’m Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle, loud homosexual on the internet. I don’t know, probably begging for some woman over 50 to run me over with a lawnmower, who can say what I’m up to on any given day. It’s usually that, it’s mostly that. We all know.

Drew: Yeah, it’s pretty much that.

Christina: Love to have a brand.

Drew: So today is a special episode and we are not playing a game because we have a special activity at the end of the episode. So instead we’re going to just get into our main topic, which is tarot and astrology and their places in queer community. Special guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Meg: Sure. Hi, my name is Meg Jones Wall. I am also a writer at Autostraddle. Can you believe? And I run the @3am.tarot Instagram account, and I have a book on tarot coming out next year, which is amazing, so.

Christina: We came right to the professional, we said—

Meg: I figured I’d start professional because who knows where this is going to go. It might get really off the rail. So, we’re going to come in, we’re going to come in hot and we’re going to see what happens.

Drew: We love it.

Christina: Yeah. I think the listeners should know there’s some energy in this Zoom tonight.

Meg: Yeah, there’s some energy. There’s some things happening here.

Christina: There’s a vibe. It’s fun. I think it’s going to continue to be fun.

Drew: I think so. So what I want to know first is, Meg, what was your introduction to both tarot and astrology? When did they come into your life?

Meg: So astrology took a little bit longer. I think I was raised in this wildly homophobic, deeply conservative fundamentalist Christian situation. My parents are church planners. I got ministers on both sides of the family. There’s just a lot of Jesus happening over there. And I’m a Scorpio sun, so when I was starting reading astrology, it was death, sex, power, intensity, control, obsession. And I was, “I’m not allowed to think about those things. I’m just going to tuck that away in a little corner and never look at it again with my queerness and all this other shit.” And so I found tarot in 2016 after having left the church and come out and being in kind of a bad mental health place, I was like, “I don’t have a spiritual community. I don’t have a queer community. I’ve moved a bunch of times and left my physical community.” And so tarot was kind of the thing that I was, “Maybe this could be just mine. Maybe this could be a thing that is mine, that doesn’t belong to anyone else, that I didn’t learn from anyone else. It’s just a self-taught sprung-from-within-me sort of thing.” And so my interest in astrology kind of rekindled alongside that because when you read about one, especially tarot, because astrology’s just a million years old, but especially when you read about tarot, there’s a lot of intersection with other practices, and astrology is often the one that most often gets squished together with it. So it was hard to read about tarot and not find astrology things. And so I was kind of learning the practices side by side, but tarot very much felt something that was really intuitively… I don’t know, I was just really drawn to it. Astrology’s hard, y’all! Tarot, I was, “I can fuck with this. I think I can handle this. I’m not good at geometry, but I think I can handle tarot,” so.

Drew: Christina, what about you?

Christina: I was just trying to think about tarot, weirdly, if you can believe it, my mother introduced me to tarot. She had a light witch phase when she was in college, she was very much seeing Black Sabbath and Stevie Nicks and having a weird all-girl time. Go off, Mom.

Meg: Love it. Love to see it, honestly.

Christina: We love to see it. And I grew up in a very neoliberal hippie zone in upstate New York. So that vibe is very present in the one street that makes up downtown New Paltz, where I’m from. And so it was kind of just always something that you… The alt kids were always, little different. You’re not one of the popular kids? You’re into some sort of terror astrology moment? But I didn’t really seriously get into astrology, I feel like until… I don’t know a couple… Now it feels like, hasn’t it always been with me? Haven’t I always watched movie and been like, what is this actor’s birth chart though? Isn’t that how because that is genuinely what my housemates and I do every time we watch a film or a program. I don’t know, a couple years into the astrology game? I think at first I was, I get it. Similar to Meg, I get it. I’m a tourist. I’m lazy. And I like food.

Meg: Yeah.

Christina: True. I’m not saying it’s not true, but it’s not the energy I want to hear all the time.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: So I do kind of love that this kind of astrology boom that I feel we’re in via social media has allowed us to have some fluency in other parts of the chart, I think is really important.

Meg: Yes, great.

Christina: I think that’s when I saw my full chart, I was like, “Oh, that makes so much more sense. I’m not just this one thing. I’m all these things.”

Meg: Contain multitudes.

Drew: Yeah, for sure.

Christina: What about you, Drew?

Drew: Yeah. Similar in the sense that, I think I’m a Capricorn, I know I’m a Capricorn, but I think my response to being a Capricorn was, “Oh, I’m boring and work hard.” And I was, “I’m not want to be boring. I do work hard though.” And then when I learned my whole chart, it was like, “Oh wow, this actually all makes total sense. And I am very much Capricorn, but I’m also these other things.” And then tarot, my best, best friend, met them when I was in elementary school, became close in high school, lived together in college, and when I lived in New York, and their mom is a therapist who does therapy through tarot. Her license plate is tarotpy.

Christina: Is she accepting clients?

Meg: That’s what I was going to say, that’s awesome.

Christina: What’s the deal? That’s so cool.

Drew: She just wrote a book. I’ll include her new book in the show notes. She just wrote a book. It’s Lauren Schneider.

Meg: Okay, okay, okay.

Drew: Shout out to Lauren. But yeah, but I think I also had this feeling before where I was, “This is your job.” I don’t want to be… I don’t want to ask, I don’t know. But then eventually I got over myself, and had a lot of talks with Lauren and at one point, some point in college, Lauren read my cards and that was the first time that, and actually she’s the only person who’s ever read my cards. And she’s only done it a couple times because again, I feel always like, that’s your job, I’m visiting your child, I don’t want to, or I’m visiting you, but I don’t know. Yeah. So that was my familiarity with tarot. And then all also with astrology though, I think, for me, it came out of dating. It was a thing where I was like, “Oh, this is how we flirt in queer women community.” This is… When I became single, I also became obsessed with astrology. And at first it started as a bit and then it became a thing where I was like, “Well, so many people I’ve dated have been Aquariuses, that can’t be a coincidence.” And then I just went deeper and deeper and it just kept making sense. And I think I still sort of fall somewhere in the, yeah, I don’t know. I’m not going to argue with you to tell you that it has to be quote unquote real, but I really enjoy it. I enjoy framing my life and yes, my viewing of different actors or whatever, and being like, “yeah, of course, Will Smith’s a Libra.” It’s great. I enjoy that.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: But yeah, that’s sort of my journey.

Christina: Yeah. I think I wouldn’t be surprised if I thought about it harder but it would probably dovetail with my coming out and I was fluent in so many queer things already when I was a quote “heterosexual” unquote, but I do think astrology. I was, oh, I got to get up to snuff on this, right quick.

Drew: Meg, it’s really interesting that you’re talking about sort of leaving organized religion and then finding community in tarot and astrology because I do think that’s… If I was going to have a hypothesis and I’m certainly not the first person to ever say this, but that a lot of queer people do feel ostracized from organized religion, not everybody, but a lot do. But if you’re raised with that in your life and there is still a part of you that’s spiritual, it is a nice substitute. And it does feel — the same way that technically the United States of America doesn’t have a religion, in our… whatever, Constitution? Bill of Rights? Which one is it? I don’t know. But then obviously the United States of America is very Christian.

Meg: Yes.

Drew: That’s how I feel about queer women where it’s, we don’t… Astrology is our religion, you don’t have to like astrology, it’s fine. You’re allowed to still live in the country of queerness. But I do think it’s our official religion, if we were going to be unofficial about it.

Meg: Yeah. Even if you don’t believe in it, you’re still probably at an advantage if you’re fluent in it, because it’s such a language and it’s such a community thing that we all were just like, well, when in doubt, okay, well, what are your L Word signs? What are your Babysitter’s Club sign? We can just fuck around with that all day. It’s something to talk about, but it’s also a way of seeing the world and a really cool way of digging into archetypes and talking about signs and energies and the ways that we connect and the ways that we move through the world and process information. There’s so much in it, and yeah, it really does feel the unofficial religion of queer people.

Drew: I also feel I learn so much about someone by how they present their chart, right? You probably learn as much about me by me being like, I’m a Capricorn, but I’m also Leo rising in Sag Venus. You just learned a lot about me just then.

Meg: The fire jumps right out.

Drew: Right, yeah. Where I’m, no, no, I want you to know this. Even if you don’t believe in astrology. If you know enough to know what I was communicating there, I’m describing how I want you to see me.

Meg: Yes. Hundred percent.

Christina: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, whenever I’m doing my, yeah, Taurus moon… Virgo, that whole performance of what your big three are, is so a part of the fluency in how you describe yourself. It’s very fascinating stuff.

Meg: It is.

Christina: A question I had for Meg was, as a person who’s come to this kind of hoping to use it in a way that replaces kind of that spirituality and that spiritual practice. Do you have a daily practice with tarot? Are you a person who draws a card every day? I have always wanted to be that kind of person, but much like being a journaler. I’m like, “oh, I forgot,” or “where are they?”

Meg: That’s such a mood. I’ve never been good at journaling. Before I start talking about my tarot practice, you should just know this about me. Across my life, I have bought so many beautiful journals and written approximately three entries in them. And then they’re just these lovely blank books with sad scribbles in the first few pages and nothing ever happens. Tarot is one of the most consistent practices I’ve ever been able to establish. And it was during my Saturn return that I picked them up. So go figure. But, yeah, I am a card a day person. It’s actually what my whole Instagram account really started as, because I’m also a photographer. And so I was, I’d really like a visual representation of the cards, but journaling didn’t feel like a thing that I should do. And now they have cute little stickers and there’s stuff you can do to make it a little bit easier. But it made sense to me to just start an Instagram account and snap photos of my daily cards and write a little bit about them and it turned into this giant thing. But yeah, I don’t do it every single day.

Christina: Sure.

Meg: Because now I have this Instagram account with 21,000 followers. It’s a thing. I try to not beat myself up if I don’t pull a card a day because it’s content versus my personal practice. I do try to still find ways of keeping lines between those things, which feels almost impossible, but I still try to do it.

Christina: Yeah. It’s actually the bravest thing you’ve said here in this podcast, trying to keep a line between what is personal, what’s content.

Meg: Honestly, who do I think I am? What is that?

Christina: The limit does not exist.

Meg: It does not, but we’re out here trying anyway. It’s 2021, everything’s on fire. What are we going to do? But yeah, I do really like the practice of drawing a card a day, because I feel even if I don’t have a particular question or concern or thing that I’m stressing about or wanting insight about, it’s still just a nice little moment for myself and in a world where most of what I’m doing get sent to other people or given to other people or is creating for other people, this is the moment for me to just be, okay, cool, what do I need to hear today? What do I need to think about today? What’s one thing that I should be paying more attention to? And it’s usually something really obvious, but that still feels nice. I’m like, okay, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. It feels external confirmation even though it’s coming from yourself in a way.

Meg: Yeah, exactly.

Christina: I don’t know.

Meg: It’s a weird thing.

Christina: Yeah. My friends and I are always, the thing about astrology is that it’s absolutely fake except that it’s incredibly real.

Meg: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Christina: That’s where we live and we love to live through that kind of tension. I think that’s what queerness is, kind of living in the moments of tension.

Meg: And making meaning out of it and then obsessing over it for five years. Yeah.

Christina: Yes. Exactly. Making meaning and/or content. Who’s to say which.

Meg: Monetize the tension. Let’s do it.

Christina: How do you guys think about using both Tarot and/or astrology — I feel like astrology and dating is more of the common thing, but I do feel like there is kind of that stereotype that you’re like, oh, this is a queer woman who’s like, “Oh, I won’t be dating this person because of like X sign.” And I feel like that is fun to joke about, but I feel like I’ve never actually seen that happen in life despite what the internet would have you believe. Drew has got a, quite a face on.

Meg: Yeah, you have a face. There’s something happening right now?

Drew: No, no, no. I think for myself, I would never, I work in the opposite direction. I’ll be like, oh, it’s funny. I’ve never dated this sign, now I know why. But if I met that Sun sign, I would never be like, “Oh, I can’t date you because you’re a redacted.” I just, I wouldn’t do that. That’s wild to me. I think it is funny to joke about, I think that I’ve, even though it hasn’t been that long that I’ve been astrology obsessed, I think I’ve been on my own journey of like, realizing that even some of the jokes were a little bit, that’s not — one it’s just, not that it’s disrespectful to those sun signs it’s more that it’s, I realized it was disrespectful to astrology. Where I just was like, this is like not really… as I got a deeper grasp of astrology, it was like, it’s a lot deeper than someone being a redacted. You know what I mean?

Christina: I love that you’re using redacted instead of even picking a sign.

Meg: I know. I’m like, we’re going to talk about this later.

Drew: I mean, people know, I will be more excited about people. I like to be positive. I’ll do it in the positive direction, even if it’s still a reduction or whatever, but I love an air sign, especially a Gemini or a Libra. I love a Sag, like I’ll be extra excited about those signs, but I would never cut someone off for being anything, any one sun sign.

Christina: Can you imagine? Can you imagine the marginalized identities of the zodiac?

Drew: Or even having a chart.

Meg: Poor Pisces, just there are certain signs that get so malaligned. And like, we’re all just out here doing our best, but yeah. I mean, I think that’s a good point. I mean, I’m not a professional astrologer, just cannot stress enough. I’m not a professional astrologer and I’m dating a professional astrologer. So I’m even more aware now that I’m super not a professional astrologer, but sun signs are just like the tip of the iceberg, especially when you’re talking about compatibility, it’s like, there’s Venus and Mars and moons, and Mercurys, and like laying needle charts across each other. And there’s just so much to look at. And so just being like, well, Pisces sun, fuck that. Sorry I’m using Pisces, but I just, it’s just the one that I hear about the most.

Drew: I don’t know how you knew what redacted was. That was really incredible mind reading.

Christina: I didn’t, but I have a number of friends that are Pisces suns that are always complaining about how they always get the short end of stick when it comes to things. And my big three are Scorpio, Leo, and Gemini. So like, I’m familiar with the…

Drew: Yeah. That also actually wasn’t what my redacted was, but just…. I’ll tell you later.

Christina: This is so exciting.

Meg: I know I can’t wait. You’re building tension for the end. I love it.

Drew: Yeah. I think it’s always interesting to me when I first was on Co-Star. And that was how a lot of the flirting was happening was like friending each other on Co-Star, which, I still have Co-Star in order to have access to my friends’ charts easy. But I hate it. I hate the — its descriptions of compatibility make no sense. And I took a little bit of pride in being like, oh, everyone who I’m into is exactly who they say I’m not supposed to be into. And like, fuck you stars. And it’s actually like, no, fuck you tech company that created Co-Star.

Meg: For sure. And just trying to make people mad because it makes clicks.

Drew: Yeah, I’m sure if I talked to a professional astrologer, they could explain why I’m more compatible with Libras and Geminis, even though I’m a Capricorn, but I no longer feel like I’m doing something against the stars. I’m like, no, I just have a whole chart. And that person has a whole chart and it’s complicated.

Meg: And also people are people.

Christina: Yeah. I also just love the energy of Drew being like, “I’m doing something against the stars today.”

Drew: A little rebels, sort of…

Christina: She’s just like not like other girls? I don’t know if you knew. Yeah. It’s just a little different.

Drew: I’m not like other Capricorns, for sure.

Meg: Not at all.

Christina: That. I do have a lot of Capricorns in my life, I feel, fellow earth signs, who I do dearly love, but I would say, Drew, you are not like the rest of them.

Drew: Oh well, that’s — I mean, I’d like to just be, I like that. Thank you. I love a lot of other Capricorns.

Meg: Capricorns are great.

Drew: I’ve never dated a Capricorn, though. I’ve never dated a Capricorn and I’ve never dated a Virgo and I’ve never even hooked up with either of those, and it’s interesting to me.

Christina: Keeping away from your earth signs.

Meg: It feels too close to home.

Christina: I mean, what are, but like we do have those, obviously Drew has redacted. So like we’re not going to focus on Drew, but like I do still have a gut reaction when, say, I meet someone who’s like, “I’m a Libra.” I’m like, “Oof, really? Okay, a choice.” And some people are Libras. That’s fine. That’s beautiful. But like, it is funny that as though I don’t necessarily and would not necessarily subscribe to it, it is still just like one of those moments where I’m like, “Oh right, which a Librass.”

Drew: It’s interesting because the two signs that I think I’m least likely to date — which I’m joking, redacted is Cancer, which I’m not. But it’s so many of my closest, like if I were to make a list of my closest friends, so many are Pisces and Cancers, and I’ve never dated Pisces or Cancers. And I think, in those friends, I see some of those energies, especially the people who have more than just their sun in those signs. I definitely can see the ways in which dating-wise we’re not compatible, but I don’t think that someone not being compatible with me also is like a judgment on them, which I think is interesting in the way people talk about astrology and compatibility. And astrology sometimes where I’m like, wait, the definition of compatibility. I mean, I don’t have the actual definition in front of me, but…

Christina: Oh, I was ready.

Meg: I was like, all right.

Drew: It’s all like, oh, you’re great. And this other person sucks. It is literally you are two individuals and or three or four or however many people are in your relationship that you’re testing compatibility with. And you’re not compatible. I’m defining the word with the word, but it’s not a value judgment. And all of my friends who are Pisces and Cancers are great partners to somebody, even if they haven’t been to me. And honestly, putting this officially on a podcast means that I’m absolutely going to have some long, meaningful relationship with the Pisces I deserve within the next five years.

Christina: 100 percent.

Meg: You’ve manifested it now. That’s how it works.

Christina: 100 percent.

Meg: 100 percent.

Drew: And I love that. I’m not, again, I’m not against that at all. Maybe they’ll teach me how to feel like…

Meg: Very nurturing. There’s a lot of good energy out there.

Christina: Sorry. I’m just not going to let Drew slide with someone teaching you how to have feelings. Come on now.

Meg: I know that’s a lot. There’s a lot to unpack there.

Christina: You’ve got so many feelings.

Drew: Well, no, wait, I have a lot of feelings intellectually. I don’t have a lot of feelings that I… I don’t remember the last time I cried. I don’t…

Christina: No, as we have, I think decided on this podcast, if you intellectualize a feeling, you don’t have to deal with it. It’s what science is. Hello.

Meg: Yes, that’s totally how it works. Absolutely.

Christina: Every therapist I’ve ever said has been like yeah, absolutely. Christina. You’re right.

Meg: It’s how to get around it. Yeah, for sure. Really good coping mechanism.

Christina: Nailed it.

Meg: But no, I mean, I think even just the way this conversation is flowing, like the fact that we’re talking about astrology rather than Tarot, I think just goes to show that like, I think that astrology is easier to talk about in terms of as a language. I think it’s more universally known amongst queers, but also people in general. I think Tarot feels more like, this is me looking at a particular moment or the way that you might look at the sky in a particular moment versus your natal charts. People don’t walk around being like, oh yeah, I’m a Death sign and a Strength, Moon, and a Lovers rising. I mean, maybe we should, because that would be really interesting. But — cause that sounds badass, that makes me sound really fucking cool. But in general we don’t talk about Tarot. I do think that it’s a language for connection that can be used for those kinds of things. But I don’t think as queer people in general, we talk about Tarot in the way that we talk about astrology, especially when it comes to compatibility. It’s just, it’s kind of its own little weird thing. I love it. But it’s a weird little thing.

Christina: Yeah, my silence, there was me trying to think of a smart segue to like, let’s move into like a Tarot space, that was not me just being like, Meg, what is Tarot though?

Meg: But, but explain this to me, but no. Because I mean, I do think that like you’re sitting in a bar, you’re not going to be like, “Hey, what card did you pull this morning?” Like, nobody’s going to say that as a, that is not a thing. Even people I know that read Tarot every day, I’m not going to ask them that like, versus what’s your sun sign or what’s your moon sign or whatever.

Drew: I would just like to put it out there that I was ever at a bar, and someone was like, I have Tarot cards with me and I’m going to pull a card for you. I’d be thrilled about that.

Meg: Oh yeah. It’s great.

Drew: I think part of it for me is that, okay, I’m going to admit something that’s very silly and maybe it’s not silly. You can tell me, this is a great moment to ask this question. And I know that I revealed that I have someone close to me who, Tarot is her life. And I haven’t brought this up, but a podcast is when is that this idea that like you are supposed to have your first Tarot deck purchased for you, or like gifted to you? I think whenever there were times where I was like, oh, I’d really love to like get into Tarot. And I was like, well, got to keep waiting, waiting until someone picks me. Someone ask me to the Prom. And so I think oftentimes I’ll go down a rabbit hole of an interest, like pretty randomly, something will be sort of hovering as something I want to get interested in. And then like, there’ll just be a moment where I’m minister and I’m like, I’m going to buy a book on this thing. And I learn about that thing. And I think with Tarot, I’ve always had this thing of being like, well, I can’t. Anytime I have that draw, I’m like, oh, I got to wait. I got to wait. Is that not a real thing? Or is it a real thing? And I have to keep waiting.

Meg: It’s a real myth that is perpetuated by people. It’s sort of a gatekeepy shitty thing that people do when they’re like, “yeah, you have to have somebody buy a deck for you. Sorry sweetie, can’t do it yourself.” Like no, fucking buy yourself a Tarot deck. If you want to identify that, it’s fine. Some of my decks now have been given to me because now I’ve reached the point in my career where a publicist sends me decks, which is really fancy and also means I have a lot of decks that I give away a lot. So then I give decks to people. But most of the decks I have, I bought. I bought my first like 10 decks. It’s fine. It’s not going to do anything. And like, I’ll just take the opportunity to say you don’t have to buy your first deck. You don’t have to store it in silk. You don’t have to, like, you don’t have to buy the Rider-Waite Smith deck first, if you don’t want to. You can do what the fuck you want, frankly.

Drew: I love that.

Meg: My one hard and fast rule is don’t use Tarot to manipulate people or scare people or tell them they’re cursed or whatever. Like don’t use it, don’t fuck with people. But other than that, you cannot use the deck wrong. I know. I’m so sorry. That might be really ruining someone’s day. But that’s the only hard and fast rule, like anything else, it’s a tool, like do what you want with it. It’s yours, it’s just paper and do what you want to do with it. And so, yeah.

Christina: Wow. That’s really beautiful. How do you think about Tarot in a dating sense? Like how does it factor into your romantic life? I know that you are famously in a relationship so we can move this from a dating space to being in a partner space also.

Meg: I mean, I think, I don’t tend to read for myself about romantic relationships because it’s too hard. I can’t be objective, and most professional readers that I know, but also just people that read consistently, often are similar. They’re just certain topics that are, it’s too hard to read with clarity. And so if I have a really sensitive situation or if I’m really stressed about something, I will ask either a friend or pay a professional to do a reading for me. I have not historically done many readings at all, either for myself or had someone else do them for me, around love. It’s not really something that I turned to the cards for, which is probably something I should unpack for myself. Because I really haven’t thought about that much. But in my partnership, my partner and I read cards for each other all the time. Sometimes we read cards together, like for different aspects of our relationship, which is really nice. But yeah, I read for clients about love sometimes, but I have a lot of rules about it, and I don’t read for myself about love. Because I can’t, I don’t think I have the capacity to read very clearly about it.

Christina: That makes sense. I think that is part of what the having a daily Tarot practice was a struggle for me. It was like, ooh, this is so much looking internally at myself. I would simply rather not do that at this moment in time.

Meg: It’s a whole lot. Yeah. And it’s why I don’t do it every day. That’s why I try not to get in my head about it, if I haven’t done it every day. It’s not like drinking water. I’m like, okay, I don’t actually need this to survive, if I take a day off, I’m going to make it. We’re going to be okay. But it is something that like, when I’m in a space for it or have a few minutes where I’m just like, I can’t something about this thing. Let’s pull a couple of cards about it. Like it can be a nice way to kind of be like, okay, I’m trying to do other things. And I’m in my head about this thing. And I’d rather just like, let’s just say, I’m going to take 10 minutes and think about it and pull some cards and actually do the thing. And then sometimes that helps me then compartmentalize and be like, cool. Okay. We have something, we’re just going to put that little box and I’m going to go do my shit. It can be helpful for that no matter what the topic is. I find it useful for things like that.

Drew: Are you able to share what your rules are when you’re reading cards for people about love and relationships?

Christina: That was also my question.

Meg: Yeah. I think they’re on my website. I should double check, but yeah, like most of the rules that I have about reading for other people are because of love questions specifically. And I think for most people in general, but especially for queer people, like I think we’re a little sensitive to rejection and we’re also like very, very, a lot of feelings. So I think it’s something that has to be done with a lot of care. Because I think there’s a lot of vulnerability to asking a stranger to look at your cards and talk to you about a situation that they’re not personally invested in. There’s a lot of power that comes with that. So a lot of my rules are around not overstepping or not inadvertently doing harm or giving someone false hope. It’s trying really hard to be like, okay, like here’s information. I would like this to be useful and empowering and not a thing that makes you spiral for the next two years. So my rules are usually tied in… Yeah. I think both of my rules are really tied to my beliefs about Tarot, which is mostly the, again, it’s a tool that you can use, generally for empowerment. I see the Tarot as being the most useful as the tool for self-reflection and self-exploration rather than predictions. I’m not a fortune teller and I’m not a psychic, I’m not a medium, I’m a girl that slowly and painfully taught herself to read these things. It’s not a gift. I didn’t pick them up and get struck by lightning. I spent years learning how to do it, not very well, it’s taken awhile. So I’m very much someone, I won’t read for questions like, when am I going to fall in love? Or when am I going to get married? Or when is my ex going to come back? If you’re asking, you probably already know, let’s be real. But whatever.

Christina: Ah, the big three.

Meg: The big three, you don’t leave. Actually probably would. But yeah. Yeah. So I don’t read predictive. I don’t read timings and there are ways of reading predicatively and there are absolutely ethical professionals that read timings. I’m just not one of them. It’s not something that I find super useful for me because I get all into freewill. And I was raised Calvinist, there’s a lot in there. We don’t have to go there, but it’s too much. So I don’t want the cards telling me that this is definitely going to happen or not happen, because that’ll affect my actions, that might affect my choices. I might not get myself to the place where that happens. And so I don’t want to do that to anybody else either. And yeah, the other thing, I don’t read for anyone that’s not present and consenting to the reading. So if you’re coming to me and you’re like, how does this person feel about me? I’m like, you should ask them because I’m not going to tell you. I don’t know, they’re not here. They’re not consenting.

Drew: We love direct communication.

Meg: Yeah. I’m like, I’m not going to read cards about someone else’s feelings and then tell you what they are. That feels wildly unethical to me. So that cuts out like 50%, probably more, of the people who want readings.

Drew: Yeah, I bet.

Meg: Because most people want to know, when am I going to fall in love or get married? Or how does this person feel about me? And I’m like, I don’t think the cards can — personally, in my practice, I don’t think the cards can answer those questions. So I’m not going to take your money.

Christina: I would feel more stressed out if I went to a Tarot reading and someone was like, in three years, that’s what’s going to happen. I’d be like, well, so what, I would just be on high alert for the next three years of my life.

Meg: Exactly. And you don’t know how that’s going to impact the things that you might do. If you’re like, oh, well, if I didn’t know that where I would be in three years might be really different than if I spend the next three years being like, well, if I’m going to get married in three years, then I got to do all this shit that I wanted to do before I get married. Like that’s just…

Drew: It’s basic time travel rules. You cannot change the…

Meg: Don’t fuck with the future. Don’t fuck with the past, don’t try to meet yourself. Like don’t, yeah, just leave it alone.

Drew: I mean that’s what bothered me about those first astrology apps I was on, like Co-Star, like the pattern where I just was like, this is hurting me. But I can feel, and I think people talked about it in the context of the daily Co-Star, the little thing.

Meg: The daily trolling that you sign up for.

Drew: That didn’t bother me, that I found funny and I actually still get them because I just find them hilarious. But it was more the thing where it would be like, I mean, I wrote an essay about this, about my relationship to Co-Star initially. And it being like, oh, “today is going to be a good day for you lovewise, this is a bad day for you workwise.” And it was influencing me in these really toxic ways. And I had to grow out of that. And I mean, part of going out of that was actually learning about astrology and actually dedicating a little bit of time to, and I’m certainly no expert, but just like actually spending time, understanding astrology itself and not just Co-Star. Because those are very different things.

Meg: They sure are.

Drew: And yeah, I don’t have an interest in any of these tools when used in that way.

Meg: Yeah. I just don’t find it empowering or constructive or motivating, you know? If you know for sure that something is, might fall into your lap, then you might not work towards it and then you might not actually get it. I don’t know. It’s weird. And I don’t want to fuck with that.

Christina: Yeah. Every time people do a screenshot tweet of their push notification from Co-Star, like “damn Co-Star keeps hurting my feelings.” I’m like, well you are a human being who could simply turn off a push notification. It’s actually so easy.

Meg: You fully opted into that lifestyle. You made that choice.

Christina: You have chosen to hurt your feelings for content, which absolutely respect it. But know that’s the game that you’re playing here.

Meg: Yeah. Yeah. This is a choice you continue to make and you don’t actually have to keep making that choice.

Drew: Okay. I did just think that if we get another season, I really love the Co-Star notification or text from my family member.

Meg: Oh, wow.

Drew: Just speaking of push notifications, you can get fun stuff.

Meg: Well I’m sweating a little bit now. Okay.

Drew: Maybe the same way queer people replace the religion their families taught them with astrology. They also replaced the criticisms they got from their family with criticisms from Co-Star.

Christina: And you got to get it from somewhere. You have to have it.

Meg: Yeah, truly, can’t live without it.

Christina: You simply can’t. Maybe that’s why my push notifications for Co-Star are off because I speak to my mother once a week. So there it is.

Drew: Do we want to pivot into…

Christina: Pivot? Our big pivot?

Drew: You’re going to give us each a little reading.

Meg: Yeah. I mean, I do want to ask you both, if you’ve ever had a Tarot reading about a love situation or relationship, or what your experiences are with readings around love?

Drew: My answer to that question is no, I’ve never had a specific, I’m trying to think of what I’ve had. I’ve only had two readings and I’m trying to think what they were about specifically. I think they were more general. And maybe a little bit more career focused.

Meg: Those are the two big ones. Love and money are usually what people want readings from.

Drew: Oh. And I had like a transition, like when one of the readings was like when I was pretty early in my transition.

Christina: Yeah. I was trying to think, I don’t know that I’ve had a professional Tarot card… just kidding, this memory just came rushing back to me. Me, freshly post being out, Salem, Massachusetts, an old man named Doug really dragged me to hell. I don’t honestly remember what he said in that Tarot reading, but I do remember leaving and being like, why did that man know so much about my life? Like what the hell? He had a gigantic walrus-esque mustache. He was actually an icon now, that I think back on it. God, I hope he’s well.

Meg: Yeah, he sounds fucking amazing.

Christina: Yeah. I hope he’s well.

Drew: How did you meet? Did he just walk out from an alley and be like…

Meg: I know. Did you go and pay him or did he just emerge?

Christina: I did. I went to Salem, Massachusetts. A place where you kind of are like, you have to do something vaguely witchy. And my friend and I were like, let’s go get Tarot readings. And I remember exiting Doug’s booth and being like, what? Now I need a drink. So yeah, that was the one time. I don’t remember what I asked. I think I was like, what am I vibing? And what are my vibes? Like in whatever colloquial language, 2015 Christina used. I have no idea what I asked him, but that is the one time I have professionally had a Tarot experience.

Meg: I mean, I’m glad it was in Salem. I lived on the north shore of Massachusetts for 10 years and I didn’t start reading Tarot until I’d left Massachusetts. But I worked in Salem on witchy things before I ever read Tarot. So it’s a little shocking that I’ve never done super witchy things. I’ve just gone to witchy shops, but.

Christina: It’s part of the journey.

Meg: Sounds great. Just don’t go in October. Yeah.

Christina: No, don’t.

Meg: Not in October.

Christina: Don’t go in October, too crowded, very small.

Meg: Terrible.

Christina: Now that we’ve got the relatives of geography of Salem, Massachusetts, out of the way, the thing that I know people come here for.

Meg: Oh yeah, for sure. Stop regionality. So who wants to go first? And how would we like to do this?

Christina: Well, I was going to ask you, actually, how you would like to do this, given that it’s famously your profession.

Meg: Famously professional. Yes. Well, cool. I think we keep them pretty tight, but I’ll do three card readings for each of you. And we can, generally, I love to do readings that don’t actually have spreads, but if you have a super specific reading, we can make up a spread together on the fly and then read about it. So it just kind of depends what your particular situation is, what you’re looking for, what you want insights on or what your questions are around. So if one of you wants to go first, we can start there. Otherwise we’ll go alphabetically.

Drew: I was like, oh, thinking about it in the love and relationship context because of this podcast. But also you’re the professional, whatever sort of reading that you want to give us, I’m on board.

Meg: Okay, cool. Yeah. I mean, for me it doesn’t have to be love and relationships. It can just be like, whatever’s on your mind. And if there’s something that you’ve been stressing about, if there’s a problem or decision you’ve been turning over in your mind or if there’s just something you’re like, I can’t figure this out. I can’t figure out what I’m feeling about this. Those are all pretty good. Those are things that Tarot was well equipped to navigate.

Christina: I’m seeing now I should have kind of come to this space maybe with some thoughts around those very, very good questions that I…

Meg: I can also just pull some cards for you and we can talk about them. If you don’t have a question, that’s completely fine. But I wanted to give you this space to have a question.

Christina: I love that, I love to be given space.

Drew: Is there anything, Christina, that we’ve discussed in these first 10 episodes that we feel like we should, not that we should come up with each other’s question, but just in thinking back to our own, I’m trying. That’s what I’m doing right now. It’s just thinking back to, and also thinking about what I want publicly.

Meg: Yeah. That’s the other piece.

Christina: Sure. That is the other piece, I suppose.

Meg: I will try not to drag you publicly on a podcast.

Drew: No, you can.

Christina: Yeah, I kind of signed up for it. We said let’s have a dating podcast.

Meg: I mean, respect.

Christina: Yeah. I don’t think I have any questions. So I’m happy to just go with a vibe moment. I’m just happy to vibe.

Meg: We’ll just go with the vibe.

Christina: Where are we at?

Meg: Have fun. Just have fun. All right. Well then I’ll start with you and then Drew, if you come up with something along the way. Cool. All right. Well, I am using the This Might Hurt deck by Isabella Rotman. She’s a genius and I love this deck. It’s based on the Rider-Waite Smith, but it’s queer and modern and delightful.

Christina: Hot. Same.

Meg: I know. Right? Queer and modern. We love to see it.

Christina: Yeah. I was going to ask, I think we should have a space for you to recommend some decks that you love for our listeners. Because I’m sure that people are going to be dying to hear more about Tarot, get into it, after this episode. Love the drama of a shuffling moment.

Meg: I know, shuffling on a podcast is really intense. Okay. So I want to talk first about the card that jumped out because to me cards don’t jump out for me very often. So when they do, I usually pay attention.

Christina: You telling me I’m special? Loving this already.

Meg: Yeah, you’re so special. And the card that jumped out is the World, which is awesome. The World is the final card in the Fool’s journey of the major Arcana. It is a card of completed evolution. There’s ways to see it, that are perfection and completeness, but that feels like way too much pressure. So I don’t usually read it that way. I instead read as a state of contentment, a state of feeling whole within yourself, at least in this particular moment, the World is the end of a journey, but it’s with a consciousness that a new journey will be beginning at some point. So it’s usually a call to celebrate where you are in this particular moment, to be really joyful and content and grateful for everything that you have. And also to be aware of when that sensation starts to shift and what that may be pushing you to evaluate or move towards or seek out next. But in general, this is a really beautiful card. It’s not a card that, at least for me, comes out very often because it is this completion, end of the journey, deep satisfaction, rich contentment, fullest version of the self kind of card. So it mostly just means you’re like a fucking super badass and you’re in a really good spot right now, which seems lovely.

Christina: I love compliments!

Meg: Love to see it. So the other two cards that then I drew for you, which then I would put less emphasis on because I drew them just in this context, since one did jump out is the Four of Cups and also the Page of Swords. So the Four of Cups is kind of a card of emotional boundaries. And sometimes that can be a really good empowering thing. And sometimes it can be a sign that you might be holding back a little bit from being vulnerable. Or…

Christina:Me?!

Meg: I told you, this is where it starts to get weird, but this can speak to being like, trying to distance yourself a little bit from community, not quite willing to share your full heart with someone or with a number of people. Sometimes that can be a really deliberate choice around healing. “Hey, I don’t want you to see me. I just need some time to heal and recover.” But other times it can be like this hand here, that’s extending out this cup to this girl is just fully not having it. It can mean that there might be people that are reaching out to you looking for a deeper connection, that you’re not as aware of, or you’re not giving as much energy towards. So that could just be something to watch out for, especially you’re in this world of place of completion and feeling whole within yourself. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t people that would be interested in having a deeper relationship with you.

Christina: Wow. That is accurate and scathing. And I love it. I feel so alive.

Meg: That’s what I’m here for. That’s what I’m here for. And then the Page of Swords finally, Pages are the youngest card in their suits. And so they’re kind of students, they’re explorers. They are people that are kind of starting on a journey and the suit of swords is connected to the intellectual self. It’s the mind, it’s the element of air. And so the Page of Swords might mean that you are getting ready to explore a new course of study or a new intellectual topic. You’re wanting to learn about something or you’re interested in learning how to communicate, share, process, absorb information in a new way. So sometimes it means you have a lot of ideas and you’re trying to figure out what to do with them. And other times it means that you have received a new bit of information and you’re trying to figure out what you want to do with it. You’ve been handed a new sharp, shiny sword, and you’re like, what do I do with this? I want to do something with it. And you’re exploring possibilities. So this can be a part of intellectual curiosity, asking questions, learning something, and perhaps expanding your mind in a new and exciting way that leads you down some new cool pathways

Christina: That’s tight. So that feels very like, I mean the World part feels accurate, based on where I am with career stuff. Obviously I think anybody listening to this podcast is probably aware that I super don’t love being vulnerable. So that really tracks and yeah, like ideas, new information, this, yeah. I feel really held and seen by these cards today.

Meg: Love that. I love that. Good. That’s so good. I’m so glad.

Christina: Yay. That was really fun. That’s so good. Drew’s turn. Drew’s turn.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. So I don’t know if this is like a question per se, but it is just sort of a general topic, which is that, so I recently moved and I feel like my new living situation is sort of the most adult living situation in a way that I feel really good about. I also am in a new relationship. I also feel like I’m on the precipice of some things career wise. So there’s a lot of new stuff that’s theoretically all very good. And it, again, actually very good, but I do, because I’m an anxious person, I think with the changes and things, there is just a little bit of unsettledness of like, oh wow, all these things are happening that I’ve wanted for a long time. And ah!

Meg: Now it’s all happening.

Christina: Wait, your question is what’s going to go wrong. Is that your question?

Meg: Oh boy.

Drew: Well that I wouldn’t ask, because I’m not trying to hurt myself.

Meg: Yeah. Don’t do that to yourself. Let’s not do that.

Drew: The question isn’t what’s going to go wrong. The question is more like, how should I enter into these new spaces of my life? What should my energy be? What should my sense of self be?

Meg: Yeah. I like that. I think that’s a great question for the Tarot actually just in moving through all of these transitions and stepping into this kind of new phase, in so many different ways, like what are some things to know and to pay attention to, and to be aware of as you care for yourself and move through this in a place of self compassion and self love. That sound, that feel pretty good? I’m just going to shuffle for a minute.

Christina: Self love, feels good.

Meg: Self love. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I pulled three cards for you. As per usual, nothing came out. So I’m just going to read all of these cards, kind of with different weights and we’ll kind of see what feels generally like one card might resonate more than another, but I’m not going to try to figure that out along the way. I’m just going to read each of the cards in the order that they came out. So the first card is the Nine of Pentacles, which is a really beautiful moment of — Pentacles is tied to earth. So it’s career and finances, but it’s also like physical health. It’s also your sense of stability. And nine is a number of independence, it’s tied to the Hermit. So it’s very much like being self-contained in a really beautiful and holistic way. So the Nine of Pentacles is this period of deep satisfaction in everything that you’ve done individually yourself. Yes, there’s strong community behind you. Yes. You’ve been working really hard. You’ve had help along the way, but this is like you standing alone being like, “Fuck yeah, look at everything I’ve worked for. All the seeds that I’ve planted are growing and thriving. I have built this life for myself that is deeply satisfying, that cares for me, I’m in a position to be able to give back to people that I care about and I can care for myself in a way that’s really satisfying,” is the word I keep using, but it’s this really content, stable card. I don’t know if you can see her, but she’s just rocking out with this falcon in the field. It’s gorgeous. So that is the first card that came out. The second card that came out is really interesting, given what you were talking about. This is the Three of Swords. And again, swords, as we talked about before, tied to intellectual self, mental stuff, the mind and air. And with the Three of Swords, I know you can see this poor bird being stabbed through the heart with all of these. I love this card. I have this card tattooed on me. So I’m a big fan of the Three of Swords. But this card usually is about a truth that comes out in an unexpected way, and hurts us in a way that perhaps we weren’t expecting. And so to me, again, I don’t really read predictively. So what I’m actually reading from this card, what this card is telling me, is that you were preparing for this to happen. You were worried about this happening. You were bracing yourself against it happening, and it might be impacting the ways that you’re moving through the world, through your relationship, through where you are at now. You’re anticipating that this is going to happen, and it’s contributing to some of this anxiety that you’re feeling because you’re waiting for the other shoe to drop. You’re waiting for someone. This card sometimes is tied to betrayal or new information that harms you, like a fact coming out after the fact, that you’re like, “What the fuck? I didn’t know that. Everybody else knew that?” So to me, this speaks more of what you’re worried about rather than something that’s necessarily actually happening. Just because you were speaking of anxiety, and this is the card of anxiety.

Drew: Yeah. That’s really interesting.

Meg: Yeah. And then the last card is the Two of Wands, which wands are fire. Wands are the soul. They’re passion, enthusiasm. It’s heart desire and the things that really drive you forward and motivate your choices. And the Two of Wands is the card that comes after the big idea, but before you’re fully finished executing it. It’s a moment of you standing there with your, with your roadmap and being like, “Okay, I have all this energy. I have all these ideas. I have all these intentions. What am I actually going to be able to execute properly in a way that is satisfying to me and gets me where I want to go?” It’s the moment of making a plan. You’re like, “I have all this creative fire and energy and ideas. How am I going to make them actually happen instead of just running headlong with no plan and then running out of steam halfway through?” And so, given all of the changes that you’ve just made, to me, this speaks of a suggestion to maybe take stock of where you are. Take some time to be grateful. Don’t give into anxiety. And instead, think about what you really, long term, want to create. And how the moves that you’ve recently made, and also the things that you’re planning to do, are going to get you to the place that you want to be long term.

Drew: I love that. That’s so beautiful.

Meg: That’s what I see in these guys.

Christina: Oh, I love that.

Drew: Yeah, I really like the idea of looking at a “negative” card as not negative, but as an expression of anxieties and what the negativity that we are projecting onto the future, regardless of whether… Obviously, all futures hold negativity because life holds negativity. It happens sometimes. But I find it really interesting to think about it in that context.

Meg: Yeah. Part of the reason I like tarot, as opposed to Angel cards or Oracle cards or some of these other tools that only have positivity, is that I think there’s something, especially if you’re like in a shitty really place, something bad is happening or you’re really anxious or depressed or just dealing with something hard, having the cards be like, “Hey, you feel like shit. I see that. You feel like shit. I’m so sorry. Yeah. I see that. I recognize that. Here it is.” I don’t know. To me, there’s something really soothing about that. This is real.

Drew: Yeah.

Meg: This is a real thing that you were holding that is happening to you. And I recognize that. That’s what it feels like to me, is the tarot holding space for that in a really specific way that feels really deeply personal. And so when cards like that come forward, it depends on the context. And because this is a general spread, I get to do what I want because I’m the reader. But I think when cards like that come forward, it can be really healing. It’s like, “Hey, I’m acknowledging your anxiety. I acknowledge this sense of you perhaps bracing for something that you’re worried about.” But it’s not necessarily actually going to happen. It’s still present because the anxiety is present. But these other two cards are cards with stability and planning and dreaming of a really magical future.

Drew: Yeah.

Meg: Yeah.

Drew: And even when you’ve worked hard to get to a place of stability and a magical future, the past still is sometimes ringing in that ear of yours—

Meg: Sure does, yeah.

Drew: … with other things that have happened.

Meg: Trauma. Can you believe?

Christina: Can you believe?

Drew: What a concept! Well, thank you so much for doing those readings.

Meg: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for letting me do it.

Christina: Yeah. That was really fun. It feels like a really good send off for this year.

Meg: I know.

Christina: First season.

Meg: I hope y’all are very proud of this show. It’s been really, really amazing to listen to. And you’ve had some really incredible episodes, and this has just been a really lovely thing. So I hope you’re both very happy.

Drew: Thanks so much.

Meg: And obviously you’re going to have another season, obviously.

Drew: I hope so. Let’s move on to Crush Corner.

Meg: Right, right, right.

Christina: Crush Corner.

Drew: Does everyone have a crush? Meg, do you want to start us off?

Meg: Sure. I hope it doesn’t feel like a cop out. It’s just all I can think about. I live in Brooklyn, so I was lucky enough to get to see live theater for the first time in two years. A couple weeks ago I saw Hadestown on Broadway. So my current crush is on the score of Hadestown and everyone involved in it. I can’t get the music out of my head. I’m obsessed. So that’s my crush, honestly, is music right now.

Christina: Yeah, that actually is… Yep. That’s perfect. And that actually really tracks with mine because I have been in what I’m going to call a Wicked K Hole on TikTok. I cannot get away from Wicked content on TikTok. I got Defying Gravity in German last night.

Meg: Oh!

Christina: We are in a space.

Meg: I feel like I should congratulate you. That really just seems like a really special place to be in on TikTok.

Christina: I said I’m a log off for the night right then. But in honor of that, my crush of the week is the Elphaba I saw when I saw Wicked in 2005, one Shoshana Bean. I think she should marry me. I think that would be cool. I think she’d have a good time. She has Jewish chaos, bi girl energy, which I really appreciate. And I would love her to marry me, and then sing me some songs at a time that she decides is appropriate.

Meg: I want this for you.

Drew: I think that’s what you deserve.

Christina: Thank you.

Meg: Absolutely.

Christina: Thank you so much. So that’s it from the theater report over here, I suppose. Over to you.

Meg: Go team.

Drew: Yeah, no theater crush for me. I wanted to end with a really, your crush, like horny crush. And I can’t because I’ve had such a profound artistic crush this week, and I have to talk about that because I just… And so the Criterion Channel, by the time this episode will be out, these films will not be on there, so I’m sorry. But all of Marlon Riggs’ films were on the Criterion Channel, and expired at the end of September. And I had only seen Tongues Untied. I saw it years and years ago and really loved it. And obviously, he’s this hugely important figure. But I hadn’t seen his other seven movies. And I watched all of them and re-watched Tongues Untied, and watched the intro, and watched the documentary on there about him, and watched the little group of shorts that were different filmmakers who were inspired by him. And it just was like a really meaningful four days. And all of that content, content, God, awful, all of that beautiful art is available in the Criterion Collection. If you’re a person who buys discs, you can still do that. And even though I watched them all before they expired off of the streaming channel, I am still going to now buy them so I can revisit them. And there’s more special features on the disc. So that’s also special. But yeah, it was a really powerful experience. And if you don’t know his work, you should see it.

Christina: And honestly, there’s nothing more Drew than being like, “I wanted to go horny, but I came in with meaningful, emotional connections to art.”

Drew: Yes.

Christina: That—

Meg: Here we all are.

Christina: Chef’s kiss, babe. Yeah.

Drew: Yep.

Christina: Yeah. Truly look at us.

Meg: Love it.

Christina: Well, Meg, this was literally so exciting and delightful. I’m so glad we got to have you. And we just have like one—

Meg: Thank you so much for having me.

Drew: Wait. Well, can you tell people where they can find your work?

Meg: Oh, sure. Yes. Yes, I can. So the easiest place to find me is at 3amtarot.com. I’m at @3am.tarot on Instagram. I’m @megjoneswall on the other thing, Twitter. And you can also find me on Autostraddle. I write all the tarotscopes and taro shit and sometimes TV shit.

Drew: Amazing.

Christina: We all contain multitudes.

Meg: I know. So many multitudes.

Drew: Okay. Now, Christina, you can shoot your shot.

Christina: Now I can shoot my shot and ask the question that’s been, I think, on everybody’s lips. And it was like, “Was this a date? Were we just on a date just now? Who can say. Can you answer this for us perhaps?”

Meg: We talked a lot of astrology.

Christina: Right.

Meg: And we talked a lot of compatibility, and I read your cards. So I think it might have been a date.

Christina: Think it might have been a date. Wow.

Drew: Wow. Amazing.

Christina: Huge! I love to end the season with a date. Go us!

Meg: Go team.

Drew: It’s really powerful. Thank you.

Meg: Thank you.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Drew: Except you know what? I also think it’s important to clarify to the listener that if you ask someone if something’s a date or not, you probably should take that as sort of a moving forward… I don’t think every time you see someone you should, that’s not really direct communication as much as it is, not really respecting someone’s boundaries. And we do like boundaries here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: Look, I know we’re not supposed to give value judgements based on certain signs and sign combinations and stuff. And everyone’s an individual, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think air, sun, earth rising, that is the best. That is the best person. Those are the best people. So that’s just how I feel.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 109: Fucking Your Friends

Is it a date or are we just friends? Why not both! This week we’re talking about fucking your friends with Autostraddle community editor and fucking your friends expert Vanessa Friedman. We get into the difference between friends with benefits and one time encounters and the range from drug fueled nights to thoughtful discussions over tea. Is platonic sex a thing? Listen and find out!

And to start us off we have a good ol’ fashioned game of Would You Rather? — with a personalized twist.

SHOW NOTES

+ In case anyone was wondering, my middle name is Burnett. But I think I’m going to stick with just Drew Gregory for now.

+ Despite that hetero moment, this season of The Circle was pretty gay so we did a roundtable about it.

+ Vanessa’s “6 Easy Steps to Having Sex With Your Friends”

+ Here is Bernadette’s titty dress:

Bernadette Peters at the 2021 Tonys in a black Bob Mackie dress that's off the shoulder and covered in stars.

Photo by Arturo Holmes/Getty Images

Vanessa: I have a very, very dear friend who’s definitely chosen family who once said, “The arc of the universe bends towards you fucking your friends.” And so I do feel confident that at some point in time, over the course of our lives, we will probably fuck.

Christina: Wow.

Vanessa: And I thought that was so beautiful, because who knows when? And who knows if? And maybe not. And we’re both bottoms, so honestly what would happen? I don’t know.

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the age old question: wait, is this a date?

Drew: I’m very excited about the fact that I think as I’ve gotten older, I have also asked that question less.

Christina: I’m very excited about the fact that whenever you start a sentence, I’m like, “No idea where this is going to go. Could go anywhere. It could be anything.” It’s incredible and it makes me feel so alive with the spirit of podcasting and friendship.

Drew: I’m so glad. I’m Drew Gregory. I am a writer and a filmmaker and a trans woman and a queer person. I also am currently trying to figure out if I want to go by my first middle and last name or just my first and last name or drop my last name altogether. So, that’s today’s fun fact about myself is that I have been spiraling about that. Who are you?

Christina: I’m Christina Tucker, and when I first became a person who was like, “Oh, I’m doing stuff on the internet,” I always thought I was going to go by Christina Grace. That was always my plan because like, “Oh my God, she’s famous. Her name’s Christina Grace.”

Drew: Right.

Christina: And then I never did and forgot to do so.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: So, that’s another option that could happen for you.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: I’m also a lesbian writer at Autostraddle. It’s fun. We do gay stuff there and here on this very podcast where we are going to be doing gay conversation. Wow. That was so natural and cool.

Drew: That’s really exciting that we’re going to be doing gay conversation.

Christina: Yeah. It’s actually a huge change from our usual conversation, which is just deeply straight.

Drew: What had happened recently where I was like, “That was too heterosexual?” Oh, it was these two people flirting on the television program, The Circle, and I was like, “This is too straight for me. I can’t watch this anymore. I don’t like this.”

Christina: Fair enough. I can’t grok The Circle as a…

Drew: That’s not your thing. That’s fine.

Christina: Something doesn’t quite click with me. But what I can grok is a fun game for you because it’s my turn to game you, and I went for a classic. This is a Drew edition Would You Rather because these are the kinds of questions that tend to send you into a light spiral which I think is very fun for me, and also the listeners. I’m not sure about your brain, but you’re doing your best and that’s all we could ask.

Drew: I like spiraling.

Christina: Yeah. So, let’s start with an easy one.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Well, maybe it’s easy. Would you rather have an orgasm every time you hear “All Star” by Smash Mouth, or every time you have an orgasm, “All Star” by Smash Mouth plays?

Drew: Do the other people around me hear it?

Christina: Yes. People hear it.

Drew: Where is it coming from?

Christina: This is not the point of Would You Rather.

Drew: Okay, okay.

Christina: Unfortunately you can’t have that much context.

Drew: Am I singing it?

Christina: I kind of wish.

Drew: I would say that every time it plays, I have an orgasm.

Christina: That’s bold. I feel like that song plays a lot for me.

Drew: I can do the sort of classic sex rom com thing of keep being, “Ah, I’m having an orgasm and I’m trying to keep it a secret as like…” Whatever. I can pull that off, I think.

Christina: Sure, sure, sure, sure. I love that energy. All right. Would you rather identify as sapphic or tender queer?

Drew: Sapphic, for sure.

Christina: Smart.

Drew: I mean, because even if it’s not a word that I use it is accurate, whereas I don’t think tender queer is accurate at all.

Christina: I think that’s very fair. Would you rather be trapped in a car with Ilene Chaiken or Quentin Tarantino?

Drew: Okay. So, if I was trapped in a car with Quentin Tarantino, I think he might kill me. If I was trapped in a car with Ilene Chaiken, I think I might kill her.

Christina: Right.

Drew: So, it’s a real tricky situation, but I do trust my own self control more than Quentin Tarantino’s, so I think I’m going to go with Ilene Chaiken. Also, I could ask her some questions. There’s no mystery with Quentin Tarantino. I know his deal.

Christina: You’re going to go from pissed off to exhausted to probably dead. That’s it.

Drew: But with Ilene Chaiken, I would love to just be like, “Why?”

Christina: Yeah, that’s always the question that we’re all asking, kind of specifically, to her.

Drew: Also, I want to clarify for the record that if I was ever in a space with Ilene Chaiken, I would not kill her. That was just a pithy joke thing.

Christina: Trapped in a car is a different context than in a general space.

Drew: Sure. But even if I was trapped in a car, I’m not going to murder anyone. I just want that to be known for anyone listening.

Christina: We love you, NSA. Would you rather be able to only consume media about straight people, but be in the perfect relationship or only consume gay media and be in a string of terrible relationships for the rest of your life?

Drew: What do you mean by terrible relationships?

Christina: Drew, I’m letting you define terrible however terrible is to you.

Drew: Can I still create queer media? I just can’t watch it.

Christina: Sure. Yeah. You just can’t watch it.

Drew: I feel like I can’t say the terrible relationships. That is where I’m leaning, but I can’t.

Christina: That’s what I thought you would say.

Drew: I can’t do it, though. Right? I can’t. Well, so what is media? Is it film and television or also music and books?

Christina: I mean, I was just kind of thinking about film and television. I mean, I used media to include a wide breadth, but…

Drew: Great. I’m going to have good relationships and pivot towards being a literary gay.

Christina: Incredible. I think that’s really healthy and really beautiful. I really was like, “The way she’s going to pick bad relationships and gay media.”

Drew: I really thought about it. I really, really thought about it.

Christina: I really thought about it mostly because I was like, “Well, then she’d also have stuff to write about. She would have content.”

Drew: Right, yeah. I don’t know.

Christina: I think you can make content kind of no matter what. That’s one of my favorite things about you.

Drew: I actually think that oftentimes my best experiences lead to my best work.

Christina: Not the worst ones.

Drew: Sometimes my most chaotic experiences, but they’re usually good chaos.

Christina: You like good chaos.

Drew: The bad chaos doesn’t usually lead to good stuff because I don’t usually write about it because I don’t really like to write about people negatively.

Christina: Yeah. I hear that.

Drew: So, I tend to avoid writing about my more negative experiences

Christina: And that’s really beautiful. Would you rather only use Lex as a dating app or only use Twitter as a dating app?

Drew: Oh, Twitter.

Christina: Yeah, I thought I’d toss you a light one.

Drew: That’s no question.

Christina: Yeah. That one’s easy. Would you rather have a mullet or an undercut? I know, this is tough. You have a very specific hair type that neither of these styles really lend themselves to being easy to deal with.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I think probably with my hair type, a mullet would be the more go-to thing, but I think I’m going to go with undercut.

Christina: I think it would look hot.

Drew: Oh, thank you.

Christina: And I do think the growing out process would probably be a struggle bus, but I think that’s kind of—

Drew: But if I’m forced by this game to have an undercut, then maybe I have to have it forever. I mean, I don’t know the rules.

Christina: Yeah. No one really knows the rules of Would You Rather. That’s kind of the fun of it. Would you feel worse if no one showed up to your funeral or your wedding?

Drew: Wait, is the person I’m marrying showing up to my wedding or is it literally no one?

Christina: I think it’s the person you’re marrying, but nobody else. That’s how I’m interpreting it, anyway.

Drew: I see. I see.

Christina: Because then you’re not having a wedding if the person you’re marrying doesn’t show up. You’re just kind of standing somewhere.

Drew: I’ve done that already. I do that all the time. I stand places. I’m just trying to think of the context where no one would show up to either of those things. I sort of can’t fathom.

Christina: Oh, I’m with you. I’m absolutely with you.

Drew: I think I would rather no one show up for my wedding because the scenario that I’ve created in my head is that maybe I’m eloping. Maybe it’s a destination wedding and something happens or maybe it’s like… I don’t know. If my significant other is still there, then that’s all I really—

Christina: That’s really all that matters, yeah.

Drew: I don’t really want a big wedding anyways, and if no one shows up to my funeral, then it’s like, “What did I do? Who did I hurt?”

Christina: When I was a barista I used to ask my regulars if I died tragically if they would come to my funeral. And they were always like, “Christina, I just want a coffee. Why are you like this?” And I was like, “Well, you can’t have it until you answer the question. Ha ha ha.” Most of them said yes, but I was holding caffeine against them, so who can say?

Drew: If they said no, would you have given them the coffee?

Christina: Yeah, because I was at work.

Drew: Right, right, right. Sure.

Christina: Whatever.

Drew: Sure, sure, sure.

Christina: All right. We’ve got two more.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Would you rather go without TV or would you rather go without musicals for the rest of your life?

Drew: I got to give up musicals, because it’s just more of a narrow thing, but that’s sad.

Christina: Isn’t it?

Drew: Can I still go to Marie’s Crisis or is it like—

Christina: Yeah, that’s definitionally not a musical. That’s just theater kids.

Drew: It’s just people singing. Yeah, I can still be around. Okay. I’m going to give up musicals.

Christina: Yeah. I think you have to. It’s sad, but…

Drew: What about TV musicals? Those also have to go?

Christina: I mean, if you want to watch Rent live for the rest of your life, absolutely go off. If you want to watch The Grinch live, go off.

Drew: I was thinking more like Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

Christina: Sure. I mean that falls in the category of TV. That’s like definitionally TV. So, you would still have it and that’s something. All right. The last one.

Drew: Oh boy.

Christina: Would you rather accidentally send a nude to your mom or your sister?

Drew: I mean, I guess my sister. The obvious answer is my sister, right? But when I actually think about what this would look like, I got to go with send it to my sister.

Christina: That’s what I thought you would say, but I was also like, “This is a tough one,” because I feel like in both scenarios, the other one is going to know about it almost instantly. So it’s like—

Drew: Right. It’s a good point.

Christina: Just knowing how your family is.

Drew: If I send it to my mom, my sister won’t see it. If I send it to my sister, my mom might see it.

Christina: Right.

Drew: So…

Christina: That’s part of the journey. Well, I feel like I am very satisfied in how well I know you as a person.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: And I think I would happily show up to your funeral.

Drew: Thank you so much. That is all I was waiting to hear, but would you show up to my wedding is the question?

Christina: Yeah. I’m going to be absolutely the best person at your wedding. I crush weddings. Are you kidding me?

Drew: I believe that. That’s really exciting. I’m not planning on getting married, but now I want to just so you can come to it and have a great time.

Christina: I can bring that energy if you need it at any other event. I’m happy to do that.

Drew: I want more people that I know to get married, though, because I want to go to some more gay weddings.

Christina: Same.

Drew: I mean, I guess it’s more likely that I would get married before you got married.

Christina: The way things are going, yeah.

Drew: But also life’s interesting. Twists happen. And so I’m just saying that if you got married, I would be so excited to attend that wedding.

Christina: Yes. If I get married, you’re coming to my wedding. Spoiler.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Thrilling.

Christina: Great.

Drew: We’re just going to move on to our main topic of the week, which is fucking your friends and for that topic, of course our guest is…

Vanessa: Hi, I’m Vanessa Friedman. I love fucking my friends. I was honored to be asked to come talk about that. I’m the community editor at Autostraddle. I am also a freelance writer elsewhere and a teacher and I am working on my first novel, which is due to my agent on Friday. So, that’s fun. Yeah. That’s me. My Instagram bio says I’m hot and sad, which is true.

Christina: Incredible.

Drew: Those are both great things to be. So, in another sense, you’re queer.

Christina: Yes.

Vanessa: Yeah. So, I’m a dyke, I guess.

Christina: Yep, that’s what I heard when you said hot and sad. That’s exactly what I heard. When Drew and I were brainstorming topics for this here pod and I think genuinely one of the first things we were like, “Well, fucking your friends and we’ll have Vanessa on, of course.” That was just—

Vanessa: Thank you so much.

Christina: The brand is strong. You’re aligned with this topic. We’re calling in an expert here because I think this is a really fruitful convo. I feel like it’s a thing that happens a lot. I feel like it’s a thing that people want to happen, but don’t know how to make happen, and I think you’re the perfect person to join us for this discussion.

Drew: So, the first thing that I want to ask is when was the first time that you fucked a friend in the context not of “I fucked a friend and then we started dating,” but when was the first time that you fucked a friend and it was a friends with benefits situation or a one night thing or whatever, and you stayed friends? Or maybe you didn’t stay friends, but we’ll take that part out of the equation.

Vanessa: Okay. I feel like the question has multiple parts because I definitely think in high school, when I thought I was straight, L-O-L, I definitely… And even in early college, when I thought I was straight, I had friends with benefit situations, but basically what was happening was I was allowing myself to be taken advantage of by people who I had huge deep feelings for who were kind of like, “Yeah, you’ll do.” And I was like, “Great. Great. We are friends. I am deeply friends with this man and we are both benefiting, because feminism. Duh.” And I was very much trying to convince myself and I don’t even have negative feelings towards those men because I definitely was playing along. I don’t think at any point were they like, “I’m harming this girl and her self-esteem,” because I was just like, “No, no, no, no. It’s cool. I love this.” But I did not love it at all. I mean, for a lot of reasons, which later became clear when I was like, “Oh, I’m gay.” But emotionally it did not work for me, and I do think that a lot of queer people are still playing that game, just with other people and it will not work to fuck your friend—

Christina: Spoiler.

Vanessa: …if you secretly want to be dating that person, or if you secretly want anything that isn’t a like friend who you sometimes fuck, which I think is a very key point that people often get in the weeds about. And, I had no idea it was such a controversial topic until I wrote the article, “Six Easy Steps to Fuck Your Friends Without Fucking Up the Friendship.” And people on Instagram were like, mad. They were like, “Don’t do this! This is irresponsible.” And I was like, “Oh, okay. All right. Well, Instagram is a place for nuance and good, good deep discussions.” But to answer the second part of your question, Drew, I actually, because of my straight girl college and high school experiences, I was very against fucking my friends. When I came out as queer, I was like, “No, that’s not my jam.” And, I was in a lot of circles where people did kind of casually fuck their friends. And I was like, “That’s not for me. I like to fuck the people I’m dating, and I like to be friends with the people I’m friends with.” And then, I had a pretty serious breakup in 2018, and suddenly everything shifted. It was just kind of like, “Well, I am a slut. My friends are really hot. Most of us are pretty good at communicating. Oh…”

Christina: A little door opened.

Vanessa: And things sort of changed from there. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: We’re just both nodding.

Christina: We’re just nodding. Yeah. I’m just taking it in.

Drew: It is interesting to think about the difference, because my longest friends with benefits situation was when I was a straight, and it actually was with the only person from my straight years who is still straight, she’s fully married to a man, that level of straight. Not that that inherently makes you straight, but she identifies as straight. He identifies as straight. They’re married together and they have a straight marriage and I love that for them.

Christina: Sometimes people are straight.

Drew: Sometimes people are straight. And, we both weren’t super sexually experienced, and I think because of her heterosexuality and my lack of, I don’t think we ever would’ve dated dated, but we just had a very long friends with benefits situation and it was really good, and it ended pretty okay. There was definitely a little bit, because I got into a relationship and then she texted me to be like, “Let’s have sex.” And I was like, “No, things are getting serious with this person and I’m more monogamous.” And then there was a little bit of hurt feelings, but they quickly, I would say a month later we were friends again. So, I would describe that as a pretty successful experience. And then, since being queer, I talk a lot about blurring the boundaries between friends and people who I have sex with, but I actually have really only had sex with two of, is this true, sex with two of my friends.

Christina: Real time fact track.

Drew: In the context of, we are friends, we have sex. Afterwards, we are still friends, and there is no drama, no one has more feelings. I mean feelings happen, but whatever, and with really only two people. So, it’s something that I’m very open to, but it’s also something I don’t do that often.

Christina: Yeah. I feel similarly in that my more successful friends with benefits was when I was dating cis men, and that’s obviously because I was like, “Well, I don’t like dating you, but I do like having sex.” So it’s very easy for me to be like, “No, I don’t want to spend more time with you, for the love of God, no.” But it has never, not has it never occurred to me to be like, “Oh, my friends are hot. All of my friends are hot. Hot people attract hot people.” It’s a beautiful… it’s what symbiosis is really all about. But the idea of having sex with any of my friends, I’m just like, “No. No thank you. No, I don’t want to do that.” It’s weird. And I think most of us feel the same way. One of my very good friends, Camille, when I was freshly post a breakup, was like, “Look, if you need to have an orgasm, I will close my eyes and I will give you a great orgasm,” but like, “Ew, we shouldn’t do that.” And I feel it is a lot of my close friendships do have kind of like, not necessarily a familial vibe, but it does kind of have that same sister-y feeling. It’s just like, “No, I don’t want, that’s like, no, I can’t fuck that person. That’s my sister friend. Like, no, absolutely not.” So I find it fascinating, this world wherein you can just sleep with a friend and not be like, “Hmm, no pass, pass away. Gross.”

Drew: That’s interesting, because I feel I have some friends who I feel that, where I feel they’re sort of familial to me. And then I have friends who I don’t feel that and would, but it’s not a matter of closeness. Vanessa, do you have, obviously you don’t want, well maybe I shouldn’t assume this, but do you have, I was going to be like, obviously you have some friends you want to fuck and some friends you don’t want to fuck. Maybe that’s not true. Maybe you want to fuck all of them. But do you have that delineation between certain friends where you’re like, and I’m not talking about friends who you don’t want to fuck because you’ve made the conscious choice for the health of your relationship or whatever. I’m talking more like, are there friends you have who you feel that sort of familial like, oh, we’re really close, but it’s not the sexually charged type?

Vanessa: No.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Iconic.

Vanessa: And I got to say one of my favorite things about Christina on this podcast is that you’re often kind of in this anthropological seat where you’re like, Drew and the guest are saying this thing and I am just—

Christina: I love to learn.

Vanessa: Huh.

Christina: Yeah.

Vanessa: Okay.

Christina: Yeah. I come from a higher ed background, so it’s really important to me to do scholarly research, and that’s what I’ve signed up for on this here pod, to be the Jane Goodall. That’s me.

Vanessa: This is famously my favorite podcast, which is a huge deal because, as Drew knows, I hate podcasts. So, the fact that I love this one is big, but I really love listening because sometimes I feel I’m in Drew’s seat where I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would participate in this convo.” And sometimes I feel I’m in Christina’s seat where I’m like, “This is fascinating. You don’t say? Whoa.”

Christina: Yeah. I love being a “you don’t say” guy.

Vanessa: I guess I haven’t thought about it from an anthropological way before. But a lot of my very, very close friends who are clearly familial, they are chosen family, forever people, are people who I would totally fuck. And, I guess I think of them as my chosen family, but that doesn’t make me feel like they’re my sister friend in that way.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Drew: I have a very, very dear friend who’s definitely chosen family who once said, “The arc of the universe bends towards you fucking your friends.” And so, I do feel confident that at some point in time over the course of our lives, we will probably fuck. And I thought that was so beautiful, because who knows when? And who knows if? And maybe not. And we’re both bottoms. So honestly, what would happen? I don’t know. Maybe it’d be a group scenario. But just the idea that our friendship exists. I don’t think this person is going anywhere in my life. I see myself growing old with this person, and maybe sometime before we all die, we’ll fuck. And that’s how I feel about most of my friends.

Christina: I think that’s so beautiful.

Vanessa: Over the arc of our life. I guess to me, over the course of growing up, sex has become an activity as opposed to something that has to be deeply emotionally charged. And that doesn’t mean that I’m always capable of having it in a casual way, and there are people in my life who I couldn’t have casual sex with. And those people, I would probably not try to engage in casual sex with, or if I did, it would be a failure. It wouldn’t work. But most of my friends, when I think about fucking my friends and I think about the way that I specifically, as a control freak Capricorn, like to structure the art of fucking my friends, it just feels something that could happen with any friend.

Drew: Yeah. It’s interesting because when I think about life, it’s real long, theoretically.

Christina: Okay, huge take.

Drew: And so, I really only have one friend, because when you’re talking about chosen family and not thinking about them as family in that way, I am the same way. That isn’t the line for me. There are people who I’m like, “Oh, this person’s my chosen family. And also, I have or I would have sex with them.” So, I don’t know. I guess I’m not closed off there. I guess there are people who actively, not actively, there are people who I’m more like, oh yes, that is a friend who, if they said right now, “Let’s fuck,” I would be like, “Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it.” And then there are people who I’m like, I don’t know if I would say yes right now, but yeah. Even my one friend, my really close friend Hirosch, who’s my friend from, we met in elementary school. That’s the only person who I’m a little bit like, “I don’t know.” But if you said you never will, will you never? I’m like, “I don’t know. Life’s really long.” And the two friends of mine who I have had sex with recently, they’re my chosen family, and I think for me though, like what you’re saying about it being an activity in that way, I don’t know if I have that capacity. What I have is the emotions attached to it can range so vastly. And so, having sex with the two of them wasn’t like, “Oh, I want to join their relationship.” But it was an extension of my feelings, it was still emotionally charged, if that makes sense.

Christina: I think anybody certainly who knows you and anybody who listened to the podcast will think it makes sense for you to find some emotional charge.

Drew: Yeah. Christina did get a voice memo at, what was it, 8:00 AM, that was like, “I am still on cocaine and I cannot sleep, and I had sex with Gaby and Mal and I don’t know what to do.” Oh, it was on Christmas morning, as well.

Christina: It was Christmas morning. Merry Christmas to me. Yes. It was one of the more beautiful gifts.

Drew: Yeah. But, I think also, communication is such an important thing, and being able to be comfortable enough with people to be like, “Well, let’s actually talk this out instead of, once I was sober, quietly spiraling. Let’s actually talk out how we feel. Let’s work through, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.” So, I think most sexual things, communication is a real important part of it.

Christina: Yeah.

Vanessa: I think, as you’re speaking, I’m understanding something that I didn’t understand before—

Christina: Yes!

Vanessa: Which is that I think a lot of people, when they hear the idea of fucking your friends, they are assuming that I mean as an ongoing friends with benefit situation. I actually rarely mean that and I often mean making the very intentional choice to have a fun time with a friend, and then kind of immediately re solidify the friendship boundary. I also had a threesome with two friends who are together at one point, and beforehand, I went over. We were all clothed. It was the afternoon. We were not on cocaine. We had some tea. No shame of being on cocaine. I’m just trying to set the scene. We were deeply not on drugs. We were drinking tea on a sofa and kind of discussed what all three of us would want to get out of the scenario. And then we fucked. It was great. It was several hours. We had a very nice time. And then afterwards, we all put our clothes on again, and they were very much still a couple, and I was very much still not part of their couple. We all went for dinner. We had a very nice meal. And then they dropped me at home and I hugged both of them goodbye, pretty intentionally because I was like, we are not leaving this window open. It’s not like, “Oh my God. Are you all looking for a third?” No, these were two of my extreMaly close friends. We had so much fun. A lot of our kinks overlap, a lot of stuff was really fun and good. Would I do it again? For sure. But would I do it again frequently? No. Because I am self aware enough to know that I can’t fuck the same person too many times with too much frequency who lives in the same city as me without getting feelings. And that’s not what I want from these people who are deeply my chosen family. So, I’m very much making that choice. Do I now understand that some people who are hearing me say fuck your friends think I just mean then keep fucking that couple every weekend for the next six months, and then be like, “Damn it! Why do I have these deeply hurt feelings that they’re still a couple and I’m still…” But, I would never do that because I just don’t trust myself to not get confused.

Drew: That makes a lot of sense, and also what you just described is way healthier than what I described. No shame, I guess, towards myself.

Vanessa: No shame to anyone.

Drew: But, I do think after that happened, one of the things in us talking about it was that I felt complicated about the fact that that line had been crossed when we were all really fucked up. And when we talked about doing it again, I was like, “I want to be sober.” And so, that did happen, and we had another threesome sober and, well, I was sober. I don’t remember exactly how, but no one was on cocaine. If there was a little bit of pot or alcohol, I don’t know. But I was very pointedly like, “This is going to be sober for me.” And it was nice. And it was sort of a month long thing of the bookends, and after it was over, I was like, “I live here. These are two of my best friends.” This month was a little bit messy as it was just always up in the air of, “We’ve said we want this to happen again. When’s it going to happen?” And I was just like, “Oh, this can’t stay an open thing.” Now, do I think in my entire life, will I never not have sex with either of them again? No, I think probably it will happen at some point, but it is what you’re saying, like it is closed. I hang out with the two, I continued to live with them for another whatever, long period of time, and it was funny how quickly it went back to, isn’t it weird how a month ago, there was tension in the house because we all were waiting to have sex again? And it’s like now we are so back to being platonic. But also, sometimes I’m like, can you fuck people platonically? I know that is the opposite of the word, but sometimes it does feel, I would be open to it with most of my friends because even if it would mean something emotionally to me, it wouldn’t mean something emotionally in the sense that, it doesn’t mean something romantic.

Christina: It would be romance, yeah.

Drew: Yeah. And I think the reason it usually doesn’t happen is because I don’t always know if people have that same relationship to sex. I mean, and that was something about Gaby and Mal where I talked to them about polyamory all the time and I’m very much aware of how both of them feel about polyamory and about sex and about… But I don’t know. So, I mean, I talk enough about sort of the blurred lines of friendship and whatever that I guess I also sort of just assume that any of my friends know that that’s a topic they could broach with me if they ever wanted to have sex. And I’m just sort of like, yeah, I mean, it’s casual and it’s there and it’s like… I’m not, I don’t know… It’s like, again, life is long. Who knows when certain things can happen.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like, well, two points. I do have “Blurred Lines” stuck in my head, so that’s something I just want to contend with.

Drew: Sorry about that.

Christina: You know what? It’s fine. It’s frankly a bop. I think we should all stop pretending it’s not. And two, I think it’s interesting that people would assume… As a person who does not fuck my friends, when I read that piece, I was like, obviously what Vanessa is talking about is a very specific, kind of one and done scenario. Because even to me, I was like, well, obviously if you continue this, just open this kind of place, this borderless place, where people are just fucking whenever, because it’s, I don’t know, Tuesday night and we thought a show was on and now it’s not and now we’re having sex again, obviously that is going to bamboozle some minds, and some hearts even, minds and hearts.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Could you even imagine? So that is very interesting to me that people would assume that what you mean is a long-term friends with benefits thing. Because I find that is such a different negotiation with your relationship with somebody than fucking a friend as like a one-off or a once every couple of years off is, to me anyway. Again, famously a person who does not do this, has not done this.

Vanessa: Yeah. And I think there are people I’m friends with who live in Portland who I occasionally sleep with and it’s kind of a thing that’s on the table. But again, as an activity. We do not do that every time we hang out. I find that often if a person is poly and partnered, that’s useful. I mean, depending on how you practice polyamory. But a lot of people who are polyamorous and have one or two partners aren’t necessarily able to fit more partner time into their lives. I also do think it’s the group of people you’re hanging out with. If you are friends with a bunch of dykes who all want to get married and maybe live in singular houses with their spouse and maybe have a kid or two, and they’re all monogamous and they’re not talking about blurring any boundaries, that’s the kind of life that they want, which is just a choice, that’s fine, then you’re probably not so much going to be looking to fuck your friends after a certain point in time. Unless you’re living that kind of life and suddenly a couple of different people are like, “Hey, we actually love being married and we love being mostly monogamous and we love our kids. But hey, our pals are so hot, do you want to maybe have a foursome together? Do you want to maybe do some kind of swap situation?” Do know what I mean?

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vanessa: It’s kind of like the boundaries of where you live. Like I live in Portland, Oregon. Most people here are either actually polyamorous or they think they’re polyamorous. I’m friends with a lot of people who say things like relationship anarchy, unironically and just kind of like as part of their lives.

Christina: So brave.

Vanessa: And I’m friends with a lot of people who don’t want to get married. I’m friends with a lot of people who don’t have kids yet. And so there’s kind of like this space to almost play, I think, which has been fun for me. I maybe want to have a kid. I don’t know if I have a kid if I’m going to have that much time to be thinking about fucking my friends, but I hope I still do because I hope I’m still myself, even if I’m a mom.

Christina: Moms can fuck too is a really large part of my political platform, so.

Vanessa: I love that for you, and I love that for those moms. You know? And I love that for me one day if I decide to have a kid. So I don’t know, I think I’m a little bit getting in the weeds, but I’m kind of saying I don’t care if people don’t want to fuck their friends. That was what was so funny to me. People were deeply angry that I was like, “Hey, you can fuck your friends.” And here’s my bossy, Capricorn, control freak way of kind of trying to give you a framework to do that without confusing yourself, without confusing your friends. And hopefully to have just like a fun, sexy experience that doesn’t blur the lines or blurs them in a positive way and then you can go back to unblurring them or whatever. And people were really like, “You are telling me that I have to do this thing that I know doesn’t work. And it is an unhealthy choice.” And I was like, sounds like you’re making some unhealthy choices. I’m just trying to help you.

Christina: I just — that never even crossed my mind that that would be a reaction of yours. I did not think we were going to hop into this little recording and you were going to be like, “Well, Christina, you boring yawn of a bitch.” I did not think at all. Very interesting, the emotional baggage people bring to the things you write online for the internet.

Drew: Yeah. Wild, isn’t it?

Christina: Isn’t it wild?

Drew: Something I think about sometimes is that there are friends who I actively would want to have sex with, but who I am like it is not a smart choice based on these handful of things. And theoretically, I’m very open to having sex with most of my friends, but I, with sex in general, I think can usually come up with reasons why it shouldn’t happen, which some of those are valid and some of them I think are a little bit shame-based or something. But yeah, and what you’re saying, Vanessa, about it really working when it’s with a couple, I do think that I’m like, okay, well, if I had had sex with Gaby or Mal separate, as individuals, if they weren’t in that relationship, and we continued to have sex, what if I developed feelings in a way? I don’t know, I think — or would it have gotten messier or whatever? I’m not sure and I think sometimes that’s why I make the choices I make. The other thing is that it did happen in this very chaotic way. And I do sort of think that oftentimes… I don’t know, I’m trying to figure out, I guess this sort of goes into some of the stuff we talked about on our Best Sex Ever episode, but about the difference between like a chaotic sexual encounter versus a what you’re describing of, like, we sat down and we had tea and we talked about the pros and cons of us doing this. And “it’s my birthday and we’re all dressed up and doing cocaine and then have sex” is a more appealing narrative to me than “we drank tea and talked about our boundaries,” but obviously drinking tea and talking about your boundaries is so much better. And so I’m like, I mean, again, no judgment, but it is. It is better. And I think it’s interesting because as I sort of start to explore having romantic sex that is very discussed and boundaried and it’s incredible, I would love to bring that into my casual sex as well. Right? And to be like, oh, okay, so I used to be like, well, I don’t know if I can have these in-depth discussions about what I’m into, what my partner is into and it still feel exciting and have that energy. And I, since recording the Best Sex Ever episode, have learned that in fact it is possible and it’s even better and it’s great and everything people said about communication was real. So similarly, I do wonder about being like, oh, well maybe I would be able to get to a place of having tea with a friend and then having sex and it being really great.

Vanessa: I think the thing for me with sex with friends is it honestly feels really safe and good to me. Kind of what you were talking about with sitting down and talking about boundaries. When you say it that way, it sounds so dorky, but no shame to anyone for doing how they do anything. That’s how I like to do things. If I’m having sex with a friend, it’s usually, like we’ve talked a lot about like where our kinks overlap. And a lot of times there’s really fun specific stuff that I actually might not feel comfortable asking a stranger, a one night stand who I bring back from the bar, but I’m deeply close with this person and it doesn’t feel weird to be like, oh, you know I’m into this thing because you tease me about it all the time because we’re friends.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And so actually is that a place where you would like to try that? I slept with friends who are kind of getting their feet with topping and I’m a very encouraging bottom and have had great feedback from that. So it’s kind of like there’s space to play. I do feel like a lot of what I’ve been laughing about in this episode is people being mad about the concept of it. But something that I actually do want to highlight is if you’re shy about sex, if you want to try something that does feel really scary to do with a stranger, but is something that maybe could feel safer to do with a friend. If you have a new toy you want to try out. I don’t know, to me, one of the… And I’m always interested in figuring out what is friendship and what is the expansive definition of it? And where are all the places it can go and what can it do? And to me, something I’ve learned is if a friend is open to it, and not all my friends want to fuck. I famously have two deeply close friends who have been dating for eight years. And literally since the night I met them, I was like, “I’m down to fuck if you are.” And they were very sweet about it at first when we barely knew each other and they were like, “Oh, well, maybe.” And then as we got closer, they were like, “No.” And like, it’s just a thing. It’s not like I’m sexually harassing them by being like, “Do you want to sleep together?” But occasionally, like on my birthday, I was like, “Still available if you ever are.” And they were just like, “Babe, no, it’s never going to happen.” And then kind of sweetly kissed me on the lips and were like okay. And this was a birthday pre-COVID. But you know, so would I sleep with those friends? Yeah. A hundred percent. But do I understand that they’re not down and that’s not something they want to do? Yeah. And is that fine? Does it affect our friendship? No.

Christina: No, right.

Drew: Not even a little bit. Like not a once. It’s something they tease me about sometimes. Like if I’m in a particularly hot outfit, they’re like, “Oh, I see what you’re trying to do there.” And I’m like, “Well?” And they’re like, “Nope. Still, no. You’re very hot. Still no.” But I don’t know. So that to me is kind of beautiful, that even in a friendship… If someone rejects you on a dating app or rejects you at a bar, you’re kind of like, okay, that person is off to the wind. But you’re not losing your friendship because someone’s like, “Oh no, I’m not interested in that.” It’s just, I don’t know, to me, friendship is a very safe, sacred space and it’s nice to be able to fuck sometimes in that space, if both people are or all people want to.

Drew: Yeah. That makes total sense to me.

Christina: Yeah, that’s really lovely.

Vanessa: That’s my sentimental pitch for fucking your friends.

Drew: No. I think it really is true though that it can be a really safe space to explore. I think that is a real good pitch for the concept itself.

Vanessa: Thank you.

Drew: And I think sometimes you just also are so close with someone and it feels like you want to… It’s just like another way of expressing closeness and intimacy. And not that it has to manifest in every connection, obviously, but I think there is something that’s nice about, I don’t know… I do wish that even if I don’t necessarily want to have sex with all of my friends, I am like, oh, I wish I could make out with all of them. And I think a lot of people feel that more. Or like, well I make out with my friends. But yeah, it’s just interesting to think about where our lines are when it comes to physical intimacy with people who we have intense, emotional intimacy with. And it’s definitely something I think about. I don’t have anything wise to say. It’s just something that I think I’m always navigating of what are my actual desires in those relationships, et cetera, et cetera.

Christina: Yeah. I think for me, it’s also a part of thinking about, when I say friends, what do I mean? Do I mean an acquaintance? Do I mean like all of my super close best friends? How do I delineate along the line of friendship? And how does that change how I feel about sleeping with a super close friend v. a casual friend that I’ve known for a few months? That feels less gross to me than sleeping with, I don’t know, Shoshana. That would be horrid. We made out one time when we were 19 and it was disgusting. But yeah, a casual pal who I’ve known for a couple of months, there’s more space, I think, probably because that relationship is less defined for me. And also as a Taurus, I’m like, you have been put into a place in my brain and that’s where you go. So there’ll be no changing of that.

Drew: I think I’m with Vanessa in the sense that that feels more vulnerable to me. I think part of it with Gaby is that we’re so close that it did feel safe and it did feel fine. And I never had any… There was no world where, regardless of what happened, regardless of anything, that Gaby and I wouldn’t have been friends after that. And so I think with someone who I’ve known for a few months, or even people who I’ve known for longer who I’m close with, but I’m not that close with, I think I have more of a like, I don’t know how you’d react. I don’t know how I’d react. I don’t know what would happen there. And so if I’m potentially wanting something more then I’m like, yeah, sure. Why not? Let’s see what this relationship could be. And I know that I have the capacity very much where if it didn’t work out that I could like be like, okay, let’s get back to building that friendship of ours. But I wouldn’t have the same trust that they would have that. And so it’s so interesting because I have… So many of my close friends started as people who I wanted to hook up with. And a lot of them I didn’t hook up with though, but it did just turn into a friendship. And it’s like, I don’t think the attraction ever really went away, but I think it gets to a place where it’s like, well, this is either they’re just not interested at all or I’m no longer interested because that’s not what we’re doing. But then I think it can get to that next level where it’s like… I mean, even like with my friend Hirosch. We could have sex and I don’t think it would change our relationship at all. I think it would be fine. It’s just I don’t think of them that way, in the way that I think I always feel a little bit of they’re the only person who I think of a little bit differently. But I wouldn’t have any fears with that. So, there’s this little margin of intense closeness, but not the person I’ve known since elementary school, that is like, oh, I feel like that could really work out.

Christina: That’s the sweet spot for you.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: That makes sense. Vanessa, you look like you have a closing thought, which is your right.

Vanessa: I think my closing thought is that humans are fascinating because—

Christina: That could be the subtitle of this podcast.

Vanessa: Yeah. Christina, everything you said about slotting people into places in your brain, that is so true for me too. And I think my nightmare in life is being wrong about where I’m slotted in someone’s brain. And to me that’s why fucking my friends feels so nice and easy because I’m like, great, you are my friend.

Christina: Fascinating.

Vanessa: What Drew was saying.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: Ooh, interesting.

Vanessa: There’s no world in which you as a person are not going to be my depart friend until we die. We will probably be knitting sparkly sweaters together at the old age home when we’re 90. So if we fuck or if we don’t fuck, that’s still who we are.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vanessa: Versus if I’m dating someone, if I’m having a confusing situationship, et cetera, et cetera, that’s really hard for my brain. But if you’re my friend and we happen to fuck, amazing. I also just think I’m a deeply horny person and maybe that can be my closing statement.

Drew: Okay, I have one last thing, which is just that’s so impressive to me because… Not you being horny. I mean, yes it is, but I also feel like I’m also very horny. But it’s the—

Christina: Horny pod.

Drew: If I fuck a friend, I have faith that we will still be friends, but I do not have faith that we won’t be something else in addition to friends. Fully in the middle of the Gaby and Mal stuff, I was like, “I’m bisexual, and I’m in love with both of you.” I did get to that headspace. It passed, and we went back to being friends. And I always had faith that it would pass and we would go back to being friends. But I am very anxious about not slotting people in the right place, so I like to have a little test. And I think that is part of what it is for me, being like, well I’d love to date all my friends for a few months sometime in our lives just to see if maybe that’s what it’s supposed to be. So I think what we’ve learned from this episode is that Vanessa is more clear-headed than I am.

Christina: All I keep hearing every time Drew talks is just Venus in Sag, Venus in Sag, Venus in Sag.

Vanessa: My Venus is in Sag too!

Christina: Fascinating!

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: That is fascinating.

Drew: We’re both Capricorns with Venus’s in Sag. Vanessa’s just more evolved than me, and you have a few years on me though. And I’m getting more evolved, even just throughout this podcast.

Vanessa: Yeah. Wait, Drew, how old are you? Not to be a bitch, but how old are you?

Drew: I am 27.

Vanessa: Totally. So I’m 32.

Christina: Same.

Vanessa: And I do feel like what we’re seeing is a Caps on Venus in Sag at 27.

Drew: Great.

Vanessa: And a Caps on Venus in Sag at 32. And I think that’s beautiful.

Drew: That is really beautiful.

Christina: That really is beautiful. Speaking of things that are beautiful, crushes. You know what are beautiful? Having a crush on, sometimes, people in pop culture that is platonic or maybe is just a vibe that you’re digging. And I think we’re going to celebrate that right now. Vanessa, who are you digging on?

Vanessa: I’m so glad you asked. I texted Drew in advance of this telling her I was very nervous about the crush aspect and I put a lot of thought into it and I thought about the theme and I realized, duh, I have a crush on my friends, Christina and Drew.

Christina: Wow.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: This is actually brilliant because it’s also kind of getting ahead of our actual final question, which I’m loving.

Drew: Wow. That’s great.

Christina: That’s really beautiful.

Drew: That is really exciting.

Christina: I feel a little giggly. I feel a little toasty suddenly. I don’t know.

Vanessa: Oh my God.

Christina: Should I crack a window? What’s happening? I’m loving that. Okay, Drew. While I collect myself, who is your crush on?

Drew: Okay. So I’m doing a classic crush.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: I’m doing an all-time crush. Someone who I think about all the time. Wait, did I do this crush already?

Christina: Maybe.

Drew: I don’t think I did.

Christina: You haven’t said it.

Drew: I don’t think I did. Did I?

Christina: Really no way to know.

Drew: If I did, you have to correct me.

Christina: You got to say it first.

Drew: My crush of the week is Katharine Hepburn.

Christina: Nope. You haven’t done that.

Drew: Okay. I guess I just was like, I must have already, we’re so many episodes in. Katharine Hepburn is just definitely one of my, “I don’t know if I want be you or be with you” people.

Christina: For sure.

Drew: It’s funny to say this because I’m always in a movie place, but I’ve been really in a movie place lately where I just feel like I’m getting into movies again, which again is a very silly thing for me to say. But, I don’t know. Last month I re-watched Bringing Up Baby with the person I’m dating. And Bringing Up Baby is just like one of my all-time favorites. And I just love Katharine Hepburn, she’s like chaotic energy, and her confidence, and the way she wears pants. And I love Katharine Hepburn, and she’s my crush of the week and my crush of my life.

Christina: That’s incredible. She wears pants really well. I’m going to give you that one. In honor of the Tony’s last night, one, Bernadette Peters showed up with her titties just sitting so high in a vintage ’80s dress. When I first saw the ethnic Cinderella, AKA the Brandy Cinderella, AKA the only Cinderella I recognize, I was struck by a lot of things in that film. But Bernadette Peters as the mean stepmother, I said, something’s happening within me at that. And it was something that I didn’t necessarily understand until much later.

Drew: Sure, sure.

Christina: But it was a very early evil mommy root for me.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: And I’m just so glad that she is still doing all that she does. I’m so glad that she can barely move any part of her face except for her mouth. I find that actually inspirational.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: And I just hope she’s well, every day going forward until the end of time.

Drew: Wow. That’s beautiful.

Christina: Thanks. So is Bernadette.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Vanessa, you want to tell our listeners where they can find you and all of your incredible work?

Vanessa: Thank you. Yeah, you can find my work on autostraddle.com. You can also find me on Twitter @vanessapamela. You can find me on Instagram @vanessatakesphotos. And you can find me at my really needs a renovation website, vanessapamela.com

Christina: We love it.

Drew: Okay. So the last thing, which, because this is your favorite podcast you know this is coming, and also now I feel a little bit flushed because we were your crushes, but was this a date?

Christina: Were we on a date?

Vanessa: I mean, how do you guys feel? Do you want it to be a date?

Drew: Oh wow. That’s such a good response.

Christina: No one ever throws it back on us, which is funny because we do throw this question at people whether they’re prepared or not for it. I think if we are going by the history of this podcast, I would be like, “No, this is not a date.” And Drew would be like, “Maybe this is a date.”

Drew: Yeah. Boom.

Christina: I’m going to be classic. But—

Drew: You got to stay on brand.

Christina: But maybe it was a date. I don’t know. You really threw me off with that crush moment.

Drew: My policy is that if something is a maybe date, then it is a date because a date isn’t a promise, it’s just an opportunity. So it’s like, if you are trying to figure it out… I’m going to say yes. I’m going to say that if the two of you went on a date it’d be very silly because you’re the two most bottomiest people I know.

Christina: Thank you.

Vanessa: I feel like if we were all in the same room and we were sitting on a couch and drinking some tea, I would be like, “If you agree that this is a date, I feel comfortable calling this a date.”

Drew: Oh.

Vanessa: But if you don’t want it to be, and you just want it to be a friend hang, that’s cool with me too. And we could go from there.

Drew: That’s really beautiful.

Vanessa: That’s because that’s how I like to communicate.

Christina: So beautiful.

Drew: Oh, you’re so good at communicating.

Christina: I think that’s really beautiful.

Vanessa: Thank you.

Christina: I just like to reflexively say no to things. So I think I’m trying to learn something from both of your energies today.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Maybe getting a little bit more comfortable in the in-between spaces. Trying.

Drew: I’m so glad. I really enjoyed this date that we went on.

Christina: Me too.

Vanessa: Me too.

Christina: I had a really lovely time. What a way to start the week.

Drew: I love it. Well, thanks so much for joining us.

Christina: Truly an honor.

Vanessa: Thank you for having me. Bye.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: Before I came out, I dated so many straight girls who had fucked all of their friends and were like, “No, I’m straight. It’s just sometimes you get really close with people and there’s nowhere else to go, closeness-wise, except to have sex. But it was just a casual thing.” None of those people identify straight anymore. And you know what? Good for them.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 108: First Dates

This week we’re joined by writer, To L and Back co-host, future TV exec, and my roommate Analyssa Lopez! We’re talking about first dates — the who, the what, the where, the why, AND the how.

But before we get into our real dating lives, Christina fanfics some of our favorite queer celebs in a game of Love Triangles!

SHOW NOTES

+ One gay kiss wasn’t enough to get Nine Perfect Strangers higher than #42 in my Nicole Kidman ranking.

+ Love Triangle celebs pulled from Christina’s ever-delightful No Filter column.

+ Christina and I talked more about first dates when we were on Bad with Money.

+ Analyssa’s crush of the week glowing on TikTok.

+ Also a fun anecdote about Jessica Chastain: I saw her do a Q&A after a screening for Molly’s Game and she was so poised and comfortable and fake but in an impressive good way. I had the thought, I bet Jessica Chastain never struggles to send an email. And since then whenever I’m writing a business-y email I just say to myself, You’re Jessica Chastain. You’re Jessica Chastain. Works pretty well.

+ Here’s my interview with Isabel Sandoval and here are her films on the Criterion Channel.

+ Did you hear the news? The morning news? Christina is recapping The Morning Show.

Christina: One of my first date moves is guaranteeing not asking any questions. I will come back from a date and my friends would be like, “How was it? What do they do? Where do they live?” And I’ll be like, “No idea. I got nothing.” I don’t know what I converse about on dates, but it’s never any relevant information that anybody would want to hear on a follow up, because I’m always like, oh yeah, I’m sure they have a job. I don’t know what it is.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to answering the age old question: wait, is this a date?

Drew: Every day we get more and more clarity and learn more and more how to communicate with one another and our community.

Christina: Wow. That was so beautiful and touching.

Drew: Thanks.

Christina: And also so lightly robotic in a way that I really appreciated.

Drew: Great. Going for like queer cult. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Okay. Because you’ve watched, how much? You finished Nine Perfect Strangers yesterday?

Drew: I did. I watched it all in one day. Well, plus the last episode was the morning after, while I built my new bookshelf. It was a real successful… that’s exactly how much focus should be given to that television program.

Christina: So you’re just not coming at us from a well space, because you were in a cult.

Drew: Yeah, that was a few days ago. It’s not good enough to really have messed with me too much. But you know what? Sometimes bad television is necessary, especially when it stars a lot of stars. Oh, we should talk about who we are.

Christina: Oh yeah. Right.

Drew: We usually do that.

Christina: Here we are talking about Nine Perfect Strangers, a TV show no one cares about.

Drew: Okay, well my name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle. I’m a filmmaker, I’m a trans person, I’m a lesbian person. Yeah. And I do love Nicole Kidman.

Christina: Incredible work. I’m Christina Tucker. Also a writer for Autostraddle, I am a lesbian person and also thankful that The Morning Show is back in my life because it’s really been, well, ruining it, but in a good way. We love bad television!

Drew: Yeah. That’s some good bad television. That’s excellent. Yeah.

Christina: Chef’s kiss. Chef’s kiss.

Drew: Well, should we get into our game?

Christina: I am so excited to figure out, what’s coming from your little brain today?

Drew: Okay.

Christina: What horrors have you created?

Drew: So this game is called Love Triangles.

Christina: Oh boy.

Drew: And you’ll see that I have a hat here. Okay?

Christina: Okay.

Drew: And inside the hat are pieces of paper that have 10 reoccurring people who show up on Christina’s No Filter column, which is dedicated to celebrity gossip and Instagram posts. And then there’s your name and my name. And I’m going to pick three names out of this hat, and you’re going to put on your brilliant Christina fanfic cap, and just tell me what the love triangle would be between those three individuals.

Christina: Wow. Okay. I’m going to take a sip of Diet Coke and I’m going to be ready for this.

Drew: Yeah. What the dynamic would be. Okay. So you see—

Christina: I love that you put things in a hat. It’s so physical.

Drew: Yeah. I love it. I mean, it’s a podcast, so no one can really trust, but I promise that, one, I’m not looking. Two, it’s all random. Okay. Ready?

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Okay. So the first name is Tessa Thompson.

Christina: Iconic.

Drew: Hayley Kiyoko.

Christina: Mm.

Drew: And Rosie O’Donnell.

Christina: Now this is interesting, because what the fuck are those three people doing together? My gut is saying that Tessa and Rosie are probably going to be our main primary triangle moments here, because I feel like that’s really the only plausible way to approach this fucking trolley ass problem of a love triangle that you’ve given me. So I feel like they, I don’t know, met at a party, Tessa was feeling wild. She was like, “It’s Rosie O’Donnell. I’m going to hook up with Rosie O’Donnell because why the hell not?” That seems like her energy.

Drew: Absolutely.

Christina: I do think Hayley was entered into this triangle because maybe she’s had a crush on Tessa for a while and they met at some function. And I don’t think Tessa is in any way, like, “oh, I can’t date her.” She’s just like, “yeah, we can vibe, we can hang.” But I think Hayley’s a little hung up on like, “wait, but you hooked up with Rosie O’Donnell, the Rosie O’Donnell? How did that happen?”

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: I don’t think there’s any actual tension in this triangle. I think there is just a little insecurity and some concern.

Drew: I see.

Christina: I don’t know how we’re solving it because again, I just feel like Tessa just absolutely vibes out. She’s going to be like, I got to go hang out with Rita Ora and Tayo Otiti at some point, so catch you lates. But I do think, I don’t know, maybe at the end it ends with Hayley and Rosie bonding at some sort of brunch.

Drew: Oh, I love that.

Christina: Like, yeah, man. This is generational lesbians. This is like, we’re passing the torch. I think that could be really beautiful, honestly.

Drew: That is beautiful.

Christina: That is also so chaotic.

Drew: Yeah. Let’s move on to the next random trio.

Christina: Oh boy.

Drew: Okay. So it is Niecy Nash.

Christina: Waiting for that one.

Drew: Hunter Schafer.

Christina: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Drew: And Holland Taylor.

Christina: Well, now.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Huh. Yet again you have placed me in a challenging scenario. Now, I mean, I guess it’s like, we have to start with Holland and Niecy. I don’t know what’s happening here. Both are in very happy relationships.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t know if anybody knows that Niecy Nash is absolutely obsessed with her wife, but she is, and I’m sure she’s posted at least six times today about that fact.

Drew: Look, sometimes love triangles are unrequited.

Christina: I think it’s going to have to be, but I feel like it’s unrequited in every fucking direction. What is Hunter Schafer doing here? Hunter Schafer is like a dang teenager just vibing.

Drew: Early twenties. Just want to clarify.

Christina: I said what I said. That’s the same age. Jenna from The Office, it’s the same picture. Come on. This one, I might have to throw the towel in on. I genuinely don’t understand.

Drew: Okay. We can also put the names back in. Wait, let me put Hunter Schafer back in.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And we going to do—

Christina: Pull me something else. I can make something happen with Niecy and Holland. I don’t know what, it’s very dramatic.

Drew: Oh. Okay. This is a very interesting trio. Gillian Anderson.

Christina: Oh. Now, Gillian, famously semi freshly single, has a dog, also true. She’s no longer dating the man from The Crown that made her be Margaret Thatcher, which I think is probably for the best. Now, hmm. See, I feel like someone’s just going to have to have feelings for Niecy in the corner because she’s just doing her thing.

Drew: That’s a really good point. That’s a great point.

Christina: She’s just doing her thing. I think Holland and Sarah, I don’t know, they can get freaky. There could be maybe, maybe they invite Gillian over for drinks. Maybe things get a little spicy. Who could say? Maybe Niecy comes with Jessica. Maybe Jessica leaves early. Maybe there’s feelings on all sides. Again, I don’t know really what’s happening because I can’t imagine most of these people in the same space together. It’s thrilling to think about, for me personally. I’ll spend a lot of time thinking about it later. Now, though?

Drew: Yeah. It can definitely be an orgy moment with the partners involved, like celebrate Gillian Anderson being single.

Christina: I think that might be it. I think they might have gotten together and been like, let’s get this noted bisexual into some puss. I think that could be incredible.

Drew: Wow. What a remarkable fivesome that would be. Okay. Moving on.

Christina: Also, can I just ask one question about the hat? Is it like a news boy cap?

Drew: It is. I don’t have like a… It’s a pretty shallow hat, but I don’t have a lot of hats. So it is—

Christina: I’m glad the one that you have is a newsboy cap.

Drew: It’s a little newsboy cap. Yeah. I think I pull it off sometimes.

Christina: You have the hair for it. I believe it.

Drew: Thanks.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Okay. Demi Lovato.

Christina: Incredible.

Drew: Christina Tucker. And Cara Delevingne.

Christina: Interesting. Now this is interesting. Because working myself into here is not something I usually do. I don’t usually write reader fic because that’s—

Drew: I know.

Christina: Embarrassing.

Drew: Well let’s embarrass you.

Christina: Let’s embarrass me. So Cara’s had some sort of gathering, right, at her bonkers house with the vagina tunnel and all of the Leo statues in the backyard, that’s what’s happening. I think Demi has decided that they will attend, but is maybe still a little nervous about going to a party at this lunatic lesbian’s house because famously, substance issues are tough. A party at Cara’s house is going to get weird quickly. There’s a whole room that’s just a ball pit. I don’t understand what’s going on there. And I famously don’t love parties or people. So I feel like maybe Demi and I have connected in some sort of quiet people zone. My gut feels like Cara just wants to start some shit and just tries to get in between that in some way, just for the drama sake of it all. Brings her sex bench energy to this because, why not cause chaos, if you can? Also a Leo, she’s going to be like, hello, why is the attention not on me?

Drew: So the question that I have is Cara breaking up your and Demi’s beautiful by going for you or going for Demi? Which one of you strays?

Christina: And that’s what I can’t… Hmm. Hmm. My gut feels like I have to say Demi, but that’s only because I don’t feel like I would do that. And I feel kind of bad saying that Demi would do that, again, a person I do not know and will probably never know. But maybe because I’m not doing that.

Drew: Yeah. But I feel like you’re loyal out of laziness. So I don’t know if you have to feel bad about it.

Christina: Absolutely. That’s a notorious motto, be lazy because it’s easy.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Hello.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Yeah. And I also think Cara would exhaust me.

Drew: Yeah. That’s probably true. I’d love to see it though.

Christina: Oh sure. I could be tired for like a weekend. I could be tired for like a weekend or two.

Drew: Okay. This is the last one. It is Kiki Palmer.

Christina: Fun.

Drew: Hunter Schafer, who was put back in the hat because of age differences. And me. Wow. I love that I’m a part of this. What? Happy birthday to me.

Christina: Okay. So Drew is in love with both Kiki Palmer and Hunter Schafer. That’s where we’re starting.

Drew: Of course.

Christina: I don’t really know where we’re ending from there because that just seems like what’s going to happen. See, Kiki has this, what I love about Kiki Palmer, one of the many things I love about Kiki Palmer, is the fact that she is 27 years old and has the energy of a 45 year old Black woman at all moments of the day. I think it’s incredible to have such huge auntie energy at her young age. And I just feel like in a love triangle scenario, she’d be like, “Oh no, I’m a child of God. I got to go. This is not for me. Y’all do what you need to do, but I am all set with this.” So perhaps you and Kiki have hooked up in the past and now Hunter has entered the scene and Hunter’s like, Ooh, I got a crush on this person. And perhaps Kiki is just like, yeah, I’m letting it go.

Drew: Wait, Hunter has a crush on me? Not Kiki?

Christina: Of course.

Drew: Oh, thank you. Wow.

Christina: Come on.

Drew: Wow. What a world, where I’m hooking up with Kiki Palmer. And then that has to end because I start dating Hunter Schafer.

Christina: I mean what a world in which I’m too lazy to cheat on Demi Lovato. There’s a lot of worlds that we’re going through.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Yeah. But I think you guys definitely vibe, but I think it ends because Hunter is like, mm, I want to do more with my life. I want to get out there and experience some shit. She’s young.

Drew: I mean, I know. That’s fine.

Christina: I know. And Kiki’s like, if anybody wants to come over on Sunday for brunch, you’re welcome.

Drew: Oh, so Kiki and I stay friends?

Christina: I think everybody stays friends in this scenario.

Drew: Oh, that’s nice. That’s nice. Ok, I like that

Christina: I don’t think there’s actual hurt feelings. I think everyone’s like, yeah, growth. It needs to happen.

Drew: Yeah. That’s great. I love this. Well, this was a pleasure. Thank you for playing with me.

Christina: Thank you for, I’m calling this The Newsboy Cap game.

Drew: Great. Move over Love Triangles. It’s now a Newsboy Cap.

Christina: Yeah. No, that was really fun.

Drew: I’m so glad. Well, I think it’s time that we get into our main topic of the week with our very special guest. So our topic this week is first dates, and, very special guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Analyssa: I do. Thank you for asking. I’m Analyssa and I am the co-host of Autostraddle’s To L and Back podcast with Drew and with Riese. So when Drew and Christina did their intro, I had to bite my tongue to not say, “I’m Analyssa!” Which is usually my intro.

Christina: You did a great job, and I thank you’re honored to hear it, truly.

Analyssa: Yeah. I help co-host the To L and Back podcast, I’ve written a few things for Autostraddle. I work at a TV studio, so the Love Triangles game felt very specially made for my presence also. Long time listener, first time caller.

Christina: Incredible.

Analyssa: Et cetera, et cetera. Hello everyone.

Drew: And also, my roommate. So actually, we are recording this separately for sound purposes, but we are in rooms with a wall between us.

Christina: It’s really beautiful stuff. And I love this synergy, this Autostraddle cross promotional jargon.

Analyssa: It’s a little bit like, did I get on the pod because of nepotism? Like kind of.

Christina: Yes. But in fairness to you, all of our guests have gotten on the pod so far because of nepotism. So?

Drew: Ana, can I ask you something publicly on this podcast? As I reference the wall in between our rooms. I can’t use my vibrator while people are home, right? Our walls are too thin. Or have you not heard? Have you not heard it?

Analyssa: I’ve heard one sex noise from your room.

Drew: Okay. Once isn’t bad.

Christina: Well, now I have some follow up questions. Just one lone sex noise? Or was it a continued rumble of a vibrator?

Analyssa: No, I just mean one instance.

Christina: Gotcha.

Drew: Okay. I can live with that.

Analyssa: And we can talk about that offline because I think I know when it was, so if you have more questions we can chat.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: I would love to be involved.

Drew: Yeah. Christina, you can come.

Christina: Also happy to mail anybody some sort of white noise machine, I think could also do wonders.

Drew: I was going to, because I have a quieter vibrator. Anyways, this can all be worked out later, but it did seem like a fun thing to ask publicly since I have been mildly mortified, not mortified. We all masturbate, not all of us, but maybe all, I don’t know. A lot of us, it’s fine. It’s normal. But it also like, I want to be a respectful roommate.

Analyssa: Sure. You seem super fine and normal about this.

Drew: Cool. Let’s talk about first dates.

Christina: Absolutely, let’s talk about first dates. As we were thinking of things to talk about for this. I was like, first dates, of my lack of liking to date. The thing I do the most is go on first dates and then not do anything else. So I felt like this was a good combo. Also, it seems a little bonkers that we haven’t had a first date convo yet on the pod. So I want to know what everybody’s ideal first date is.

Analyssa: That’s a great question. I was just going to say in your defense, there was a, and still continues to be, I personally call it a pandemonium. I know from listening to the pod that Christina calls it a Paul Blart, Mall Cop. Sometimes I call it a pon de replay.

Christina: I love a pon de replay. I’ve called it a Pottery Barn a couple of times

Analyssa: A Panda Express sometimes.

Christina: I love a Panda Express.

Analyssa: So there hasn’t been a lot of first dating.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: There really hasn’t. There really hasn’t. Who would like to answer my question first?

Drew: I can. So my ideal first date is a date that starts off… It’s less of a specific, “Oh, I want to be here and do this thing.” But it is a first date that starts off as a casual day date that then morphs into a classic lesbian 12-hour date, 24-hour date, long weekend. I love the idea that you go in with these very mild expectations. And then somehow you end up before sunrise, all over the city.

Christina: I’m glad that you got the ‘before sunrise’ portion in before I did because that’s exactly where I was going.

Drew: I know myself.

Christina: It is not surprising to me that that is your ideal first-date energy. Just absolutely bonding, vibing all over the place, having feelings, having chemistry. I imagine there’s some cute make-outs tucked around on that first afternoon wandering the cities.

Drew: Oh no, I think it’d be more in keeping with before sunrise. Let’s say the date’s 12 hours, I think it’s taking eight to get to a kiss.

Christina: See? Now, I just don’t have that kind of time. I mean, in the words of the great Ursula, I’m a very busy woman and I haven’t got all day. I just feel like, what are we doing here? I think it’s amazing though, that you would want to spend that long with a person, ever.

Drew: Yeah. Ana, what’s your ideal first date?

Analyssa: I really wanted to quote Miss Congeniality when she said—

Christina: And who didn’t?

Analyssa: “My idea… ” Also iconic Demi Lovato, “My favorite dish is mugs,” whatever, it’s fine. I personally try to build in an option for a second activity if it’s going well. So it’s sort of what Drew’s saying, but less slow burn, beautiful romance and more garbage rat, let’s go be idiots somewhere. I would love to do a drinks-ish in the six to 8:00 PM range. And then I’d try to pick a location that has a fun, easy food thing near it. So we could go to a diner for pancakes at nine if we’re vibing and having fun. We could go walk down the street and get shawarma. It’s good because there’s an out if you are hungry and you don’t want to keep hanging out with the person. You can be like, “I really have to go. I’ve got to get some food,” and then you’re near a place that’s fun. But if you’re liking the person, then you’re near a place that has food and you can go together.

Christina: I like that. I love a built-in stop time more so than a… I just love having an absolute… I love having a hard out, much like a meeting. “We’re going to have to have this wrapped in an hour and a half because I’ve got to go.” Granted, it can be a flexible hard-out, depending on again, the vibe. Rarely am I going to be like, “Ooh, I want to vibe all the way to a second location with someone.” But I will if the vibe is right. Be happy to be like, “Oh, we got drinks, let’s get food.” I’m also famously lazy, so we’re going to a place that has good drinks and food. I’m not traveling to do something else. No, no. But if it’s good, we could hang out for maybe longer than an hour and a half. Who can say?

Drew: Wow.

Christina: But I do like having a built-in emergency parachute in case the vibes are, “Ooh.” Sometimes the vibes are bleh.

Analyssa: Sometimes the vibes are bleh.

Christina: Even if the lead-up is good, you get in person and you’re like, “Something went left. I don’t know what, but we’ve gone left somehow.”

Drew: Yeah. I think for me, I’m just always like, well, if it’s not going well, I can always be like, oh, well I have to go. This was fun. Once the first activity, be it, you have a drink or you finish your meal or you finish walking around the museum or whatever it is, you can just leave.

Christina: Yeah. Why does my gut feel like Drew is more activity-based in a date? I feel like you want to do a thing more so than have a drink or just go get a drink. I feel like Drew is like, “I want to go experience an art or do a thing.”

Analyssa: You’ve hit the nail on the head.

Drew: That used to really be my thing. That used to really be like… I was actually talking to Analyssa about this yesterday, that when I was in college, museum dates were my thing. And the reasoning behind it was, if the date doesn’t go well, at least I’ve gotten to go to a museum. And two, I was a student in college, obviously. And so museums were mostly free or heavily discounted. Also, when you walk around a museum, there’s so much stimulus that there’s always something to joke about, talk about. So if it’s going well, the art around enhances it and if it’s not going well, it’s not that awkward because you can just look at art quietly. Or one time I did wander pretty far off into the exhibit solo, and then we met back up. There was a lot of flexibility, but I think as I’ve gotten older, it does just become a thing where that can be a lot of investment. I think my dating has become a lot more “normal.” And since I do tend to just get a drink or I don’t know. I really love a walk-around though. We talked about this on Bad With Money of meet in a park and just have a park hang or just… I don’t know. I went on a date in Cincinnati. We just met at a coffee shop, but then it was like, oh, she was from Cincinnati and I wasn’t. And so then we just walked around and I got to see the city through this person’s… I don’t know. I do think what I describe as my dream date, I tend to manufacture it and make it happen. I mean, it doesn’t usually go before sunrise level because usually I’m not in love with someone.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: Analyssa just gave a skeptical look that I’m usually not in love with someone.

Christina: I briefly held mine back. I thought that was good friendship was.

Drew: No. Yeah, I can be roasted whenever. But yeah, so I do like an activity and I do think I’d like to do that more than I maybe was doing pre-pandemic dating-wise. I’ve really gotten to a boring zone of getting drinks.

Christina: This is huge Venus and Sag energy, really, leaping from the page and by page, I mean the Zoom. But hello, we all understand. Yeah, I do understand that, the desire to at least have some fail safe built in for the awkward feeling if a date isn’t going well, and you’re just sitting at a bar, morosely looking at someone who is boring you. That is kind of tough. What I was going to say about the museum ideas, it’s very easy to lose somebody in a museum. It’s a big spot. “Oh, I don’t know where you went. Whoops.” I don’t think I would actually do that, it seems like, even for me, a little too mean, but a possibility.

Analyssa: I think what I’ve learned from Drew telling me about the museum dates is that Drew and I have different anxieties because if I were walking quietly with someone in a museum, the whole time my brain would be going, “Do they not like me? Are we not having fun? Are we having fun? Are they just interested in this art or are they not interested in me?” There’s just a lot more going on.

Christina: I think I have similar brain space. I’d be like, “This isn’t actually clear to me.”

Analyssa: Yeah, to be confused about, whereas if I’m at a bar or a coffee shop or a park or a restaurant, I can tell if we’re vibing. And if someone is boring, look, above all, I’m my own best friend. And I can vibe with me endlessly. If we’re not clicking, I’m going to try to make it short. But I still am going to finish my coffee that I’ve ordered. And while we’re doing that, I’m going to get some jokes off. I’m going to practice my tight five for a little bit. It’s been a while since I’ve met a new person. I’m going through my thing. And sometimes that works on people and sometimes it doesn’t.

Christina: Wow. I can’t imagine. I had a friend who had a very similar energy who was like, “Even if I go on a bad date, I’m still on a date with myself. I absolutely rock. I’m having the time of my life,” which I think is a really admirable energy to bring into a space.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I’ve definitely been on dates where I leave the date and I go, “Well, that wasn’t good, but they’re going to be obsessed with me because I was killing it. I was so funny. I was so charming, and they gave me nothing.” And then those people reach out and are like, “Oh my God, I had the best time.” And I’m like, “Yeah, no shit. You had a good time, but I don’t want to see you again.”

Christina: Yes, that has happened.

Analyssa: Where’s everyone meeting their date prospects? I know we’ve again been in an aforementioned pon de replay, but when you’re on the dating scene, where are you guys getting your… Split a pie chart for me. Where are your dates mostly coming from?

Christina: I would say in the olden days, probably mostly various dating apps. When I would meet people that I would date who were acquaintances or friends of friends, we would always have some meeting-at-a-party moment, which was fine and fun. But for the most part, I think that classic first date experience to me is very much tied in with, also we’ve been messaging on whatever platform and I’m like, “Okay, let’s pick it up. Let’s meet in a space, in real space.”

Analyssa: Okay. Drew, you answered my question. I’m the host.

Christina: I love being interviewed.

Analyssa: I’m the podcast host now.

Christina: Yeah, I feel like we’ve just been Captain Phillips-d, it’s incredible.

Analyssa: Literally, I’m the captain now. Okay Drew, you go. And then I have a question for Christina.

Drew: Okay. So I would say that if you looked at the pie chart, the majority of my first dates have come from dating apps. But if quality was taken into account, I would say that the majority of my best dates were from people who I met either through mutual friends, at a house party, love a house party, love meeting someone at a house party, and then going on a date a week later, that is the best. Or Instagram flirting, leading to dates. But numbers-wise, dating apps. And I’ve had some good dates from dating apps, but that’s also where I have most of my boring dates.

Christina: Yeah. That’s where most of the flops are located also.

Analyssa: Okay. So then for both of you, what’s the length of time you talk to someone before you pitch an in-person date?

Christina: I used to be like, “Oh, we could just message and that’s it.” No, I am 32 years old. I’m not doing that anymore. If we’re vibing, if your text style is not exhausting me via the messaging app, here’s my number, let’s plan a date. Let’s go. Can we move it forward, which has been helpful because who just has the time? Who has the time to be constantly messaging? And once you fall into that constantly messaging space, I feel like some of that urgency is lost. And that’s the fun part of a first date. Like, ooh, I can’t wait to meet this person. But now it’s like, oh, I don’t know. I’m just texting somebody on a different platform. We’ll get to it. So now I’m like, let’s go. Try to make this happen.

Drew: Yeah. I’ve been on a similar journey, especially with dating apps where I think with dating apps now, it’s more like one conversation, I’m ready. I mean, during the pandemic, it’s been a little bit different. But even then it’s been one conversation, phone call. One conversation, FaceTime, ideally, if that’s the vibe. I don’t know. But also during the pandemic, when it’s not been on dating apps, I’ve been really slow burn just because it was like, well, why? You know? And it’s just fun to have. I mean, as I’ve talked about on this podcast, it’s fun to have people on Instagram who you’re flirting with and whatever. So it was a year before I asked for a FaceTime date from the person who I’m dating now. And we were just Instagram flirting. But then in contrast to one of the people who I went on a date with in Cincinnati from a dating app, it was like, “What are you doing?” They’re like, “This is fun. What are you doing tomorrow?” And then, so… What about you?

Christina: I would like you to answer your own questions, madam. Turning the tables back.

Analyssa: I’m not taking questions at this time, sorry. No, I think we all have… I’m surprised actually. I didn’t think we would all have such similar answers.

Christina: Great minds.

Analyssa: But I think I am similar. I think I am less discerning about the vibe over text or I’m trying to be, because Drew has heard a lot of this just as my friend and roommate.

Christina: I can’t wait to hear it.

Analyssa: But if I look back at the past things that have worked both off dating apps and on dating apps, dates and relationships and whatever, it falls into this bantery, constant texts all the time thing, which is really fun and something I enjoy having. But also I’m a Sagittarius, so I will get obsessed with doing that because it’s fun. And then three weeks later, I will hate it with every fiber of my being. I will be so annoyed that I have to continue texting someone.

Christina: Sagittarius and their inability to text, that’s really something.

Analyssa: Yeah. And I also have ADHD. So we’re really in a perfect storm for me to be like, “Yes, I will text you every two minutes, three texts in a row, but only for a couple of weeks. Get it while it lasts.”

Christina: Get it while the gettin’s good.

Analyssa: Exactly. And so I’m trying to be less attached to that style of texting must be happening in the dating app for me to go meet someone because I don’t know, I have friends who don’t text in the same manner that I do, and we’re friends. You know what I mean?

Christina: Yeah.

Analyssa: It takes all kinds. I think I’m, from what the two of you have said, trying to be a little more like, “If we exchange four messages on an app and I don’t think you’re the most boring person alive, I don’t know, let’s go hang out for an hour. Let’s just see if it works.”

Christina: So what you’re saying is, you’re trying to be open and receptive to meeting new people and having new experiences?

Analyssa: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: What some might call the point of dating? That’s huge.

Analyssa: That is sort of what I’m saying.

Christina: Huge.

Drew: I want to talk about day dates versus night dates, and how we feel because I know some people can be very anti day-date.

Christina: I think I was for a while, but in my elderly ages now, I feel like I am less. I’m better in the day, frankly. I’m not great at night. I’m really good in the day. So a day date is very fine with me. But definitely when I was younger, I was like, “A date during the day? Harrowing, who could do such a thing?”

Analyssa: Yeah. I think there’s this conception that only night dates can be romantic. There’s something about the image of a dark bar or under street lights or dark and broody, and smoochy is the vibe. And day dates don’t really feel like that. There’s a lot of overhead light normally, but I don’t know. I think it’s also, I’m also trying to come around on those. I mean, one thing about me personally is that I stopped drinking about a year ago, so that has changed too, what I think of what a date must be. Because it used to be like we’d go to a bar and I’d have two beers and that’s it. But then sometimes you have two beers and again, I’m my own best friend. You’re really just vibing with yourself, it’s hard to stop that from happening. And on day dates, I actually find it much easier to be a person who is engaging and listening to the other person. And we’re having actual conversations instead of thinking about what will happen next. I’ve sort of moved up the hours of my dates is what I’m trying to say. I’m more open to a window — you know how on Hinge you can change your date age range? My date range has shifted a little bit, I think.

Christina: Has shifted?

Analyssa: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. How about you, Drew?

Drew: Yeah. So I find that day dates are a lot more challenging and a lot more anxiety-provoking, and I mean some of that’s probably sobriety of I don’t generally drink during the day and if I ask someone to have a day date, alcohol is probably not going to be involved, whereas if it’s at night, it’s a lot more likely that I will be drinking. And so I think why I like day dates is that anxiety mixed with being sober.

Analyssa: You just pitched this as, “So this is really tough and actually that’s why I love it.”

Drew: Well, I think it can be hard if I’m going on a lot of dates, it can be challenging, but what I’ve learned is that dates can be awkward and that is not bad. And so when I accepted that, I honestly don’t get that nervous anymore and I don’t really have that big of a problem. If I’m sitting across from someone at a coffee shop, or in a park, or wherever and there’s silence.

Analyssa: Oh, Drew has a really good move on this, actually.

Drew: Yeah, I just will sit, and I’ll just make eye contact, and smile a little bit, and it’s genuine. I genuinely just have gotten to a place where I’m like, it is fine that we have stopped talking because we just met each other, so we’re still learning how we communicate. And so the fact that there is this silence while one of us thinks of what we want to talk about next isn’t a sign of failure or lack of connection, it’s just part of it being a first date. And usually what happens is the other person gets a little bit giggly because I’m just sitting there confidently smiling and okay being quiet. It didn’t start as a flirt move but I realized that it actually really works. It’s a flirty move.

Christina: Yeah, this totally tracks.

Drew: It’s just genuinely being like, I’m comfortable even though this is awkward, those aren’t antithetical to each other. So you can be comfortable.

Christina: That’s really beautiful, honestly.

Analyssa: I think the first time Drew told me about this move, again, not a planned one, but about this turning into a opportunity for a flirty moment, you were saying there’s some responses too that if you want to increase the flirtiness, you can be like, “You look so cute,” or whatever you want to toss in there. It’s fun. I have a few — not moves, but things tucked in my back pocket that I like to do if a date is going well, or I’d like to amp it up, or whatever, and that’s a good one to add to a—

Christina: That was actually going to be a followup I asked, does everybody have a first date move? I don’t know that I do. One of my first date moves is guaranteeing not asking any questions. I will come back from a date and my friends will be like, “How was it? What do they do? Where do they live?” And I’ll be like, “No idea. I got nothing.” I don’t know what I converse about on dates, but it’s never any relevant information that anybody would want to hear on a followup because I’m always like oh man, I’m sure they have a job. I don’t know what it is.

Drew: Oh, wow.

Analyssa: But that’s kind of nice though, because I think I tend toward trying to ask people questions so that I can seem engaged, but I then think sometimes it ends up feeling like, did I just interview this person? Did we just do an informational meeting instead of a flirty thing?

Christina: I always worry that I just did a 45 minute bit and left, and I was like I don’t know what just happened. Did they say anything? It’s highly possible they didn’t.

Analyssa: You guys were just improv partners for 45 minutes. Yeah, I have a couple of moves, et cetera. I have some standard outfits. I think that’s important to just have a shirt, or a pair of pants, or a pair of shoes, or an earring that you just love and know looks good on you, and if you put them on, you’re going to feel like hot shit. That’s not really a move on the date, but just generally. This is so crazy. This is so crazy that I’m admitting this, not the tip is crazy. I try to sit at the bar or somewhere, depending on where we go, arrange myself so that we will be sitting close enough to touch. This is why I don’t usually do meals on dates because you sit across the table, there’s not a lot of opportunity for playful, like oh my God — you can’t see what I’m doing with my hand — oh my God, leaning into someone.

Christina: I knew in my heart exactly what you were doing with your hand. I was like I know that.

Analyssa: Like a hand on someone’s knee or arm, or “oh my God, no!” That kind of stuff. You know what I mean.

Christina: I know exactly what you mean.

Analyssa: And I’ve found that really helps me because one of my love languages is physical touch, so I like to be connected in that way. And I like to just think about a couple of things I have going on in my life that are fun and interesting when I get to a date, just to remember that I’m a cool person who has topics to talk about. You don’t need a note card, but just the last movie you watched that you thought was really fun or I don’t know, anything that you can pivot if you’re stuck and be like, “Oh, that reminds me.” That’s not really a “is the date going well, let’s ramp it up,” it’s just how to remain normal for me on a date.

Christina: I love how to remain normal. It’s just a concept, a vibe. I was thinking that, especially in that sitting at a bar scenario, if the date is going well, there absolutely will be a moment where I’m like oh, it’s time to reorganize myself, and now I am facing this person in a more direct way. I’m probably doing some sort of slutty leg cross. That’s definitely a move.

Analyssa: Yeah, if we’re sitting at a bar and the date is going well, I will turn my whole body towards you and put my leg on the rung of your bar stool. Do you know what I mean? My leg is now near or under you, which is like I’ve leaned in, here I am. That’s ideal.

Christina: Yeah, that’s the good move.

Analyssa: I can remember a couple of times that I’ve pulled this and I’ve been like yeah, that works. That was good.

Christina: Just hook, line, and sinker, baby. Drew, what are your moves? Tell us your moves.

Drew: Well okay, so other than the one I said, I don’t know if I have any, because the other thing about me is that, as I’ve talked about on this podcast, I was in a relationship when I transitioned and then broke up with that person in early 2019, and then I basically had a year of dating before the pandemic happened. So so much of my dating experience was skewed through pre-transition, and I was in college, and so both of those things together, I have to split my brain, because I was about to say that I don’t go into first dates with really any expectation of anything physical, which I think is still true, but I think statistically, it has changed a bit more. But I think if I’m going on a date, not like “oh, this is very clearly a hookup,” which I think, even if it’s your first time meeting, it is a slightly different dynamic, but a proper date, I would say I still, even since 2019, it mostly does not get sexual, meaning even we don’t kiss. And I think I like to have the date, and unless it goes really well, unless it is a magical all day and night, et cetera, thing, but even I’ve had those and we still haven’t kissed. I think, this is so weird, but if I’m choosing to be slutty, then I can be slutty. I can go over to someone’s place before I’ve met them and we can have sex. But if I’m on a date, I think there’s just a different energy for me, and I’m cautious for things to get physical.

Christina: This actually coincides with you’re “I don’t sext with people that I haven’t already had sex with.” This is a similar energy. I mean I will say that I mean if I can swing a make-out, I’m going to swing a make-out. I definitely have a go-to lip stain that is non-transferable. If we can have one, we’re going to have one, but I have often had many a date where I’m like yeah, everything was good. We did not make out though, or there was not any kissing, but we are going to go on another date. I have definitely done that. So yeah, I don’t know that it’s as delineated for me as it is for you, but I understand that energy.

Analyssa: I always kiss on a first date, unless it is so clear that it — with the caveats of as long as the other person wants to kiss me.

Drew: Sure, of course.

Analyssa: But unless it’s going so clearly in the direction of we are not going to see each other again, I physically need to know, my body is like okay, so what are we going to do with this information if we don’t know how the kiss goes? And this is another move that I have in a date is I will mention that casually. I can’t really think of an example of how I’ve done that.

Christina: That was going to be my followup.

Analyssa: I simply don’t know, but I know that I have many times been like, “Yeah, because I always kiss on a first date, ha ha ha.” And then at the end, it’s like, “So are we doing that or what’s going on?” If I make it about me, then there’s a really easy, not pressuring someone to kiss me at the end of the date because I don’t make it like a wrestling championship belt that I wear into dates, to be clear, but it does sometimes, just over the course of things, come up.

Drew: Yeah. Okay, so another move of mine, which this is something I also really recommend people do if they’re getting trapped in this Tinder, “Hey, what’s up? How you doing?” stuff is be sexual. Not in a creepy way, but bring up sex. That’s something that I think works for me a lot because I think I am always very uptight about seeming creepy or being too forward is that I won’t talk about the other person sexually, I will just talk generally about sex, which because I write about sex often, there is a easy pivot from what do I do as a career to talking about sex. Also, I don’t recommend talking about your ex if there’s still feelings or complicated whatever, or if it’s sad, or abusive, or traumatic, or whatever, but I do think that the stereotype that lesbians go on dates and talk about their trauma, and also their six exes, that can be pivoted in a way that I think actually really works, which is if you talk about relationship history, it can very easily get into sex, very easily get into what you’re into. I don’t know, I think that is my way of first broaching those things as opposed to it being me speaking sexually about us.

Christina: Yeah. I do think for me, the transition to being a person who went for the first kiss more was that I would leave dates and be like I think that was good, but I don’t really know. And a good or bad kiss is a very clear way of being like, I do not want to see this person again, or I do want to see this person again, or at least helping me decide what context in which I want to see that person again.

Analyssa: Yeah, or even sometimes I’ve had an awkward kiss after a date that I thought was really good, and I’ve gone home and been like okay, I want to try that again though. I want to figure it out. A bad kiss can end something that was on the fence of maybe I’ll go on another date, but it can also cement oh, maybe I do want to do more of that just to see if we can figure it out, because I like them.

Christina: Right, we’re in the information gathering stage. Here we are, and for me, a person who likes to have sex, allegedly, I think, I used to anyway.

Analyssa: Reportedly.

Christina: Rumor has it. That is a part of the fact finding mission that we’re on on this date. Maybe I should just call dates fact finding missions.

Drew: I like that. I think the big shift for me that made my relationship to dating be a lot healthier and just more fun was when I stopped going into dates thinking about whether I wanted a second date, I tried to save that for later, thinking about dating as, I’m going to meet this person, and I get to meet a new person, and taking pleasure in that, and not going in thinking oh my God, are they going to like me? Or oh my God, am I going to like them? And obviously, it’s hard, especially if it’s a date with someone who you are really into theoretically or whatever, but we really never know what people are meant to be for us. And I think that’s why so many of my closest friends, I’ve met because we went on a date or whatever, and then nothing happened but then just stayed friends, because I went into it being not oh my God, is this person going to be who I start dating? But oh, I get to meet a person.

Christina: Yeah, I think that is definitely a part of thinking about… I also get that oh, what’s next? I get that my brain starts running with, okay, so then what does it mean in three weeks? Just wild, not even doom fantasies, but just all of these things that are probably not going to happen based on this one single interaction we’ve had. I don’t need to go down this road of okay, six months from now, I’ve got these plans. Well, what is this person going to mean? How am I going to work them in? We don’t need to do all that. That’s just stressing me out and that’s not fun for anybody.

Analyssa: Yeah, I think I have had a pretty good time of separating those out on the first date, being in the date when I’m there, but it is all that post… okay, we had a pretty good time, now what? Should I do another date? And then I start getting into what I just described, which is okay, well I could do next week, but then we’re just on a weekly dating schedule. Is that how it goes? That build up between we just met and we don’t know each other at all, and the next stage, which is now we are actually more comfortable in dating, I can just come over to your house for dinner type vibe. Those in-between however many weeks, months, whatever, I don’t know, whatever you guys do, that’s where I get a little lost sometimes.

Christina: A little lost in the weeds.

Analyssa: Yeah, a little spun around in there.

Drew: The last thing that I want to talk about is that unfortunately the pandemic isn’t ending, and so I know my relationship to dating has shifted since early pandemic, when I wouldn’t meet anyone, but I guess I wanted to just bring us specifically to pandemic first dates, be it virtual, be it in-person, what are we thinking? Have either of you been dating during the pandemic at all? Has things changed in the most recent months versus the first year of the pandemic?

Christina: Let’s be clear, haven’t gone on dates in forever, but I do think my mindset around it has shifted. Definitely first year of pandemic, I was like well, she doesn’t date and she simply can’t. Incredible work, me. But I do think there is now a level of comfort, and also just with understanding of more science of we can go meet out, we can grab a drink outside, we could, again, famously sit in a park. There are more outdoor activities. I also live in a city that stays pretty warm for a while, so that will be helpful were I to go on a date. And then navigating how comfortable are we being indoors and unmasked? That conversation has definitely been one that has been interesting to navigate just with friends and various circles of friend groups, and I’m not sure what that’s going to look like going forward but I do think now, it does feel less stressful in the way that even thinking about meeting a new person in the last year was like no, a new human with their breathing? No, absolutely can’t have that. So I do think it’s probably for the best that it’s like a little chiller, but it’s still scary, like it’s a scary world out there.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah. I did two virtual dates last year during the time of like, people can’t breathe near me or I will simply perish. And then I had this flirtation with a friend of a friend and we kind of… It was like clear that it was sort of reaching and it was like reaching a time where we had to do something or not. And so we went on a date in the park last summer and that was like, sort of Christina, I think the thing that you’re getting into here like, I didn’t have a ton of fun with that because it… I had fun on the date, but I mean, the planning of it, there’s so many more variables to be asking about. I wish we had like a shorthand, like ASL, like age sex location, question mark, but for like “vax, masked, outdoors?” Like, what are we doing here? Because I found that it just took up a lot more logistics. So it was like, okay, are you an outside person? Do you want us to be in masks? Are you… Obviously vaccines weren’t a thing then, but where should we go? That was a lot harder than just like, what neighborhood are you coming from and where should we pick to meet? I’ve gone on dates with two different people since July, August, two or three and it feels a little more comfortable now because there are places outside. I just kind of go in being like, I will do an outside drinks, now what? That’s where we’re at. So I think everyone’s comfort level is still shifting and there’s no…. God knows our government isn’t going to tell us what we’re allowed to do.

Christina: Yeah. I do think it has just helped, like having a year of learning how to have these kinds of conversations. I do think it was definitely harder the last year and now it doesn’t feel as bonkers to be like, “You’re vaxxed, we’re all wearing masks inside and you’re good to hang out outside?” I think those conversations feel less stressful than they did last year because it was like, “Ooh, what can of worms might I be opening with this conversation now?” But I do think a year of learning how to have those has helped. I’m simply not going on a virtual date, I will say that. I’m not opening another ding, dang, Zoom window as long as I live, except for this one that I’m on.

Analyssa: I will not do a virtual date unless it’s like someone far away whom I’m in love with. Although I have sort of sworn that off after doing that in 2019 also. So I don’t see that happening from Ana, but who knows?

Drew: So pre-vaccinated, like pre-vaccine, I went on two in-person dates, one was outside wearing masks and far apart.

Analyssa: Very Portrait of a Lady on Fire.

Drew: Yeah. The masks never came off to lead to a passionate kiss unfortunately. And then the other one was like, my roommates were gone, the person came over and watched movies inside. It was like, we decided to take that risk, whatever. And then since, I mean, I also went on so many virtual dates during that, so many. And then this past summer, I think my relationship to it is just like, I would rather have a one-on-one date with someone if I know they’re vaccinated than go to a restaurant with that person even if we stay outside, stay… I think for me I’m less concerned about the risk of meeting one person, even if I don’t know them super well. And I’m also not going to ask someone to show me their vaccine card. I’m just going to take someone at their word and that’s just a choice that I’m making. And so I think even still as I date other people, I still would see them regularly, but also then it’s the really loaded thing, right? Of like probably the most comfortable I’d be is like going to one of our places, but then that feels like very hookup energy, not very date energy. So then that’s a different thing. And so then it… I don’t know, I haven’t… Since I got back from traveling around, I haven’t been on a date in LA and the person who I’m dating is coming out to LA in a couple of weeks and so like, I’ll see her, but I’m not doing a lot of dating right now. One because I’m falling in redacted, and like, so I’m just like—

Analyssa: The faces is on this Zoom just—

Drew: … but I think if there was—

Analyssa: Christina and my eyebrows were in our hairlines just now.

Drew: … but I think if there wasn’t a pandemic, I would feel more at ease to go on dates with other people. But I think it’s just the risk for me when I’m like, well, I’m going to see someone in a couple… I think I’m having what a lot of people had early pandemic where they’re like, “ah, this pandemic has made me monogamous,” where I’m like, it has… I’m still on one dating app and I’m still like, would meet up with people. But it’s just all risk assessment now in a way that is even more so than regular life, so I don’t know. If I’m going to go on a date with someone, I don’t really… If I’m going to go on the date, I don’t want it to be like, we’re wearing masks and we’re six feet apart. I’m sort of like either I’ve decided that you’re worth the risk or I’ve decided that you’re not, so that’s sort of where I’m at.

Christina: Yeah. I think I would agree with that statement. I think I feel that way about people most of the time, like either you’re worth the risk or you’re not, like. I just usually decide not.

Analyssa: That’s kind of like the policy for all dating.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Does anyone else have any last takes on dating on first dates before we wrap this bad boy up and talk about crushes of our weeks?

Analyssa: I just want to put on record one last date move that I have, which is not about first dates, but I do really like if I think the first date went pretty well and we might like “Date” with a capital D, I like for a second date to be me offering to cook dinner at my home. I’m not a great cook, but I think it implies some commitment to the activity. I think then you can control the environment if things are going well and you want to hook up, you can do that but if not… Anyway, I always live with roommates so it doesn’t really happen very often, but sometimes the stars align.

Christina: I was going to say wish that I lived in a place that I could control the environment, my God.

Drew: Ana, if you want to cook dinner for someone who you had a good first date with, I will leave for the night, I will go stay at Gaby’s or stay somewhere and I’ll take Alex with me. You will be alone, you’ll have to house yourself.

Analyssa: That’s very kind of you. Not to brag, but we do have two stories in our home, so you guys would just be relegated to the upstairs.

Drew: That’s cool. That’s also fine.

Christina: Yeah. I guess I could try to pull… That’s just never going to happen at my chaos house, like there’s no way. I would be like, “Ooh, I’m bringing somebody over for dinner,” my housemates would be like “Cool, actually we’re having a bonfire and there’s another 10 people that are coming and also could you make a punch?” I’d be like, “What the fuck are you, oh goddammit.”

Analyssa: That could be kind of fun for a date too.

Christina: Chaos house is chaos house. People love it here.

Drew: Okay. So now is the part of the show where we say who our crushes of the week are. Analyssa, do you want to start us off?

Analyssa: Yes. I know that it’s part of the show and I came prepared. My crush of the week is Jessica Chastain specifically in the film by Guillermo del Toro that I watched this week, Crimson Peak.

Christina: She’s got a great energy in Crimson Peak.

Analyssa: She’s got an insane, like scary, incestuous energy that I was surprised that it did it for me because that sickly sort of thing is not usually for me, but it was giving very much mommy, sorry, mommy, sorry over and over. So that’s me. I watched that on Wednesday and I was like, “Oh, this is what I’m going to talk about.” She really got in there.

Christina: Yeah. For me, the song Ring of Keys is about her keys from Crimson Peak, so that’s me, all CT. Drew, who you crush on?

Drew: My crush of the week is Isabel Sandoval who directed Lingua Franca that’s on Netflix, you can watch it. I interviewed her for Autostraddle.com. So her first two movies, Señorita and Apparition are on the Criterion Channel, but when this episode comes out, they’re only going to be on the Criterion Channel for two more days. So I hope… I should have done this last week, but I wasn’t on top of it and so hopefully you have the time, but if you don’t and you haven’t seen Lingua Franca yet, that is going to still be on Netflix. And she’s just like… It’s just so rare because of the way that the industry works, that we have a trans woman who is an auteur and she really is, she’s just very engaged in film culture. She has a hilarious Letterboxd and just like, I love her online presence and her place in film culture. And she’s an incredible filmmaker and her movies are very hot, I mean, she’s very much committed to being like, oh yeah, sometimes being trans is hard and also we still are horny. And I’m just like, that is my religion, so I adore her and if you haven’t seen Lingua Franca, it’s on Netflix and if you haven’t seen Señorita and Apparition, you got two days, watch them.

Christina: Why don’t you give the people an actual date of when they are leaving the Criterion in case they are not listening.

Drew: They’re leaving at the end of September.

Christina: All right, good. I love that Letterboxd is just like where auteurs and critics who are really smart go to be absolute lunatics. I just love the energy of like Letterboxd reviews from people I really respect and love reading their writing. And then I read their Letterboxd reviews and I’m like, okay, absolutely, sure, go off, kings.

Analyssa: It has the vibe of Tumblr because it feels like there’s only about 12 people using Letterboxd, even though that’s patently not true and so people are just like, I can say anything here.

Christina: Yes. That’s really incredible. My crush of the week, to be brand consistent, as you are hearing this in two short days, we will be introduced to Julianna Margulies on The Morning Show, who, as she said in her own words in a promo “happens to be a lesbian.” It does feel at this point like I should sue them because clearly this is coming from my timeline, like whomst else is banging such a consistent drum about older women, specifically dark haired, older women who should be gay. She’s really incredible, her vibe totally, totally different from the rest of The Morning Show, but guess what? So is everything on The Morning Show from everything else in The Morning Show. So it’s fine that she’s kind of well adjusted in this space of lunatics, it’s incredible. I love to see her. She wears a turtleneck underneath a collar shirt with a blazer and I just feel like that is like, wow, representation does matter to me in this space. So yeah, that’s my crush. Julianna, I’ve loved you since ER, you have a face like the sun.

Drew: Incredible. Well Analyssa, thanks so much for joining us.

Analyssa: Thank you for having me.

Drew: Can you tell people where to find you?

Analyssa: Oh sure. I’m on Twitter at @analoca_ with an underscore and I’m on Instagram at @analocaa with two A’s, a true branding nightmare. Well for the next three weeks on theTo L and Back podcast, until we say goodbye to the second season of Gen Q. And sometimes I write for Autostraddle, you can find my like eight articles there if that interests you.

Christina: Until we say goodbye to another perfect season of Gen Q is I think what you meant to say.

Analyssa: So true.

Christina: No notes, because it’s perfect?

Analyssa: And speaking of Letterboxd please do follow me, I’m just Analyssa on Letterboxd and I’m having a great time there.

Drew: Yeah. I feel like if you follow Analyssa on anything, Letterboxd should be the one that would make her happiest.

Analyssa: That’s true.

Christina: I’m going there right now for you.

Drew: Great. Well then that’s it, bye, that’s the end of this podcast. So then the last thing that we want to ask you is, was this a date?

Christina: Like, were we just on a date?

Analyssa: Is there any… I’m going to ask you guys a question back since I host this podcast now also, is there any opportunity for me to kiss either of you?

Christina: I heard you and Drew are separated by one wall.

Drew: Ooh, I think if we probably shouldn’t do that this early and I like to live with someone for, let’s see, what did I do last time? Like a good six months before we hooked up? So I want to give it a little bit of time.

Analyssa: Let’s keep it open-ended. Drew and I will kiss through this wall and then it will be confirmed a date.

Christina: Great. I’m famously on the other side of the country, so.

Drew: I want to blow you a kiss.

Analyssa: Boy on the plastic bubble, kind of kissing through the wall, now it’s a date.

Drew: Beautiful. Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: You know in Fleabag, when she’s like, “I’m not obsessed with sex, I just can’t stop thinking about it, the performance of it, the awkwardness of it, the drama of it”? That’s how I feel about first dates. Like, whenever I haven’t been on a first date in a while, I just miss the rush. That’s also how I feel about sex. That’s a really good quote.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 107: Love Is Not a Lie

Wipe away those break up tears because we’re going to show you that love is not a lie! This week we have Autostraddle editor and all around icon Heather Hogan talking about her 11 year(!!) relationship with her wife and all things long term relationships.

But first! We celebrate being reunited — after an eventful summer! — and play a game of guess the show from the fanfic.

SHOW NOTES

+ If you’re an A+ member, you can read this massive crossover fanfic that the Autostraddle TV Team collectively wrote, including the Buffy/Faith/Nia Nal threesome I concocted.

+ One of the first pieces I wrote for Autostraddle was this essay about season one of Fleabag.

+ Another reason to be an A+ member: this exclusive look at Heather and Stacy’s wedding!

+ I love communication but as Vanessa detailed here there is such a thing as too much processing.

+ If you want a further look into my attitude that just because a relationship ends doesn’t mean it wasn’t meaningful, check out my favorite essay I’ve ever written.

Heather: We stayed out the whole night, which is just so out of character for both of us. And I think it was just, it’s really indicative of our relationship, I think, where it was just like, this is awesome. Let’s just do the next thing. This is so fun. Let’s just do the next thing. And I think that’s just been exactly how our relationship’s been for like 11 years. Every step has just been like, “This part’s great. What’s the next thing we could do?” So, yeah.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the burning question: wait, is this a date? Where Drew and I discover all sorts of things about dating. What is dating, what isn’t dating. And really just have a grand adventure, I’d say.

Drew: I would also say that it has been a grand adventure so far and will continue to be. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker and a trans lesbian. And I want to have something new to add to the mix. I never can think of anything new. I think those are my identities.

Christina: Sometimes identity doesn’t change, despite what TikTok will tell you.

Drew: I’m Jewish.

Christina: Yeah. I mean like—

Drew: Sort of. I mean, yeah. No, I’m not religious, but that is also part of my identity. You can tell from my hair.

Christina: That hasn’t changed though, I suppose.

Drew: That I’m Jewish?

Christina: Yeah. You’ve been Jewish.

Drew: No, I’ve been Jewish. Yeah, that didn’t happen between the two episodes. Well, who are you, Christina?

Christina: I’m Christina. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle. A loud homosexual on the internet. I’m really looking forward to the advent of Princess Diana season, AKA bike shorts and sweatshirts. That’s where I’m trying to be. I’m in Philadelphia, so it is 96 degrees today. So we’re slowly getting there. It’s just like I want it right now. It’s my ideal time. I want to be a main character in the fall, and it’s not happening yet.

Drew: Yeah. Well, what’s exciting that you’re revealing just now is, so for our listeners, it’s been a week since our last episode, which is what it always is. But for us, we actually recorded the first six episodes as we were finding our voice and developing this new podcast. We recorded that in advance, but now we’re pretty current. So this is like we’ve had a whole summer. So we haven’t recorded in months and we’ve been up to all sorts of things

Christina: Uncharted territory. The last time we recorded, we hadn’t met. We’ve met in person.

Drew: That’s true! Yes!

Christina: Drew was in my ding, dang home, just hanging out.

Drew: Yes!

Christina: I would just wake up and be like, “Well, look, that’s Drew over there.”

Drew: So nice.

Christina: It was really delightful.

Drew: You have such a lovely home.

Christina: Thank you. It’s a gay chaos home and we love it very dearly. Yeah. So we’re just on a new journey and it’s really exciting to be going on this venture with our listeners. Do we have anything else we want to pontificate about before we get into our little game?

Drew: I mean, I don’t know. I had a big summer, but I guess things will come up as the episodes come along, but…

Christina: Yeah, I don’t want you to load it all in the front.

Drew: You don’t want me to spoil anything?

Christina: Yeah. Load it all in the front? My God, what a horrible sentence.

Drew: It sounded a little bit sexual, but also I really had more of a thought of like—

Christina: It did!

Drew: I thought more though that you were leaving Home Depot and were like getting into your car, which I know you don’t have, but that was also where my brain is, which also might be sexual.

Christina: I also just love that the thing that’s keeping me from going to Home Depot is a car and not the very person that I am. Like every time I’ve been at a Home Depot, someone has been like, “Ma’am are you lost? Are you safe here?” And I’m like, “No, frankly. So much wood around. I’m not safe.” So I have a game for Drew because we love to play games.

Drew: I’m listening.

Christina: And I decided, both in honor of myself and our guest, that this was going to be a little intro into the world of fanfic for Drew. So what I have done is I’ve taken five shows from Drew’s Favorite Characters in Television list, and I am going to read you some tags from AO3’s fanfiction and you are going to have to guess which of the shows these tags are referring to. I will start general, they will get more specific to the show as we go along.

Drew: Okay. I just have some questions—

Christina: Of course you do.

Drew: Because I don’t know a lot about the fanfic world. So every show has words that are associated with that show?

Christina: Yes.

Drew: That range in specificity, I would imagine?

Christina: Yes. Yes, they do.

Drew: And so if you wanted to find a show that had like, I don’t know, medieval times you could hit the medieval tag.
Christina: I’ll say that I didn’t find any medieval times tags in any of these shows. Love to see it.

Drew: Well, that’s not my taste, but I was just throwing something out.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: Because I guess in my brain, I was like, oh, well, if you are reading fanfic, you’re looking for shows that have characters you like. But that’s not always the case. Sometimes you’re just looking for a topic and then you can discover shows from the fanfic?

Christina: You could. That would be a strange way to approach fanfic because most people approach it knowing the ship they have in mind. And then they say, I want to read perhaps an alternate universe version of this fanfic. Perhaps I would like some hurt comfort. Perhaps I would like a slow burn. Maybe I just want some straight up smut. There’s a lot of areas in which people go. And then there’s also just additional tags, letting you know the kind of flavor and vibe of the story. And we’re going to go flavor and vibe. Because obviously ships will give it away and an alternate universe is not particularly helpful per the show, so we’re going to be specific to the show.

Drew: Okay, cool. Let’s jump into it.

Christina: All right.

Drew: Let’s learn together. Yeah.

Christina: All right. Your first one. We’re going to start with fictional politics, praise kink, abandonment issues, very slow burn.

Drew: Praise kink, political… Fictional politics?

Christina: Fictional politics, yes.

Drew: Does that mean like politics that are grounded in the real world, but are fictional or totally fictional politics?

Christina: I haven’t read the fic in question, but I’m assuming it means totally fictional politics.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: We can keep going.

Drew: Yeah, keep going.

Christina: Past abuse, hurt comfort, I need soft things to live and so do you. Hilarious tag. Just had to read that one.

Drew: Okay, wait. Maybe I should take a second and think about what my favorite shows are. Okay. Because I’m trying to think of the shows that have politics in them. Oh wait, is it The L Word?

Christina: This one is not The L Word. No.

Drew: Because that does have fake politics.

Christina: It does.

Drew: Because Bette runs for mayor. I don’t know if you remember that.

Christina: Oh, I do.

Drew: Okay, let’s see. What other… Vida has politics.

Christina: Vida has politics.

Drew: Is it Vida?

Christina: Unfortunately, Vida does not have any fanfics.
Drew: Oh, what?

Christina: I know. So people, get to it.

Drew: People, get on that. I would read that fanfic.

Christina: People, get to it.

Drew: Okay. Let’s see. What other…

Christina: I can keep going.

Drew: Keep going. Yeah.

Christina: Cat and mouse. Possessive behavior.

Drew: Oh, oh, Killing Eve.

Christina: There you go.

Drew: Cat and mouse got me. Oh, praise kink. Yeah. Okay, it’s all clicking. It’s all clicking.

Christina: It all clicks. It all clicks. It was also a challenge because I had to find ones that were specific enough to the show, but also like, it might surprise you to know there’s a lot of praise kink things out there.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Just like a ton. Just like a ton.

Drew: I believe that. I love our community.

Christina: I know. One of these is not on your list of favorite TV shows and/or favorite TV characters because some of your favorite TV shows did not have fics, which was sad.

Drew: Great.

Christina: But this is a show we have talked about a ton and I think you’ll get it.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: At some point. This is going to be so easy for you, I feel.

Drew: Oh, God. Pressure.

Christina: Male friendship. Emotionally repressed.

Drew: Looking?

Christina: No.

Drew: Ted Lasso?

Christina: Yep. Yep.

Drew: Like, what shows do I watch with men? Okay, let’s try the gay one. Nope. Let’s try the straight one.

Christina: Yeah, the other one was going to be “team bonding” and I was like, that’s an easy one. There’s an easy one. All right. Let’s see. Canon character death, LGBTQ character of color. There’s a tongue twister for you. Families of choice. Mother daughter relationship.

Drew: Sense 8?

Christina: No. In the area, I would say. I would say in that zone.

Drew: Pose?

Christina: Yeah. The next one was going to be canon sex work, so — all right, we have two more.

Drew: Okay. I love it.

Christina: Jealousy. I am scared of this next episode because I don’t trust the writers. A literal tag on this fic. Iconic.

Drew: Okay. I mean, I don’t think Glee is on my list, but that is what I would first think.

Christina: It is not Glee. I don’t think Glee was on any of your lists.

Drew: It’s not.

Christina: But funny point. Ex-lovers to friends back to lovers trope, family feels, friendship. A long awaited reunion.

Drew: Ex-lovers to friends back. Is this The L word?

Christina: It is The L word.

Drew: Okay. I was like, ex-lovers to friends back to ex… Yeah, the ex-lovers.

Christina: The sad thing about The L word fanfic is the staggering amount of Bette Tina fanfic is just like, y’all need to…

Drew: You know, I think we might have an excuse to get into this later. That’s a little tease for our main topic.

Christina: All right. Angst.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Bittersweet ending.

Drew: Freaks and Geeks?

Christina: Close — no, not close. I don’t need to lie to you.

Drew: I don’t know why. I just took a jab at angst and bittersweet ending. That’s just sort of my thing.

Christina: Yeah. That’s true. That’s very true. Romance (very sad). That’s in parentheses, the very sad.

Drew: And it’s not The Leftovers.

Christina: It’s not The Leftovers. I’m not going to give this-

Drew: Okay. I’m going to be able to get this. So angst.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Bittersweet ending.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Romance parenthesis sad.

Drew: Romance, very sad.

Christina: Unresolved sexual tension.

Drew: This is all. This is just me. This is like everything. This could just be anything.

Christina: Yeah, welcome to fanfic, babe.

Drew: Ooh. I mean, wow. What a welcome.

Christina: Pining is another one.

Drew: How is this in the same family? Okay, wait, let me think about shows that I love that are gay and have an angst. Pining.

Christina: I will say this show is not gay.

Drew: Oh.

Christina: But it is a show that I know you love.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: Would you like one that’s going to give it away?

Drew: I do think we need to get on with the podcast—

Christina: I do.

Drew: But if it was just you and I like hanging out as friends, I would be like, no, no, no, give me a half hour. But okay, give me the one.

Christina: Blasphemy, religious trauma.

Drew: Fleabag.

Christina: There it is.

Drew: There it is. Fleabag is a show that now that some of the crazy culture around it has gone away and it’s not like all these annoying people’s personalities, I’m like, incredible show.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Just a great show.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: What a great, great television program. That was a lot of fun. Thank you.

Christina: Anytime.

Drew: And I’d like to just make a public service… No, that’s not what it is. Just like a request to the people that I want some Vida fanfic. I will read it. I don’t know who I want it to be between. Maybe it can be, what’s it called when it’s like two… We did this. We did this in the TV team. We did like a cross… What’s the word for it? What’s it when it’s like multiple shows?

Christina: Yeah. Cross… Cross… That thing. I know what you’re saying. I can’t think of the word. We could bring our guest in. I know they know the word.

Drew: Okay. We’re going to get into our major topic we can bring in our guest so her head doesn’t explode as she’s trying to tell us this word. Guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Heather: Yes. Hello, this is Heather Hogan. I am an Autostraddle writer and editor. And usually when I listen to this podcast, I play along like it’s a game show when y’all are doing your games. It was very hard for me to be quiet while this was happening.

Christina: I was like, this is going to be really fun, but it’s also going to be so hard for me to do this and Heather just be silent.

Heather: Yeah. My favorite so far has been, “Who Said It: Drew or Sappho?”

Christina: Thank you.

Heather: And I was truly cheering like I was on The Price Is Right. I was like, “Christina, no it’s Drew! It’s Drew! It’s Drew! No, it’s Sappho!” But you did great. You didn’t even need my help at that game.

Christina: Re-listening to that one, I was really like, well, damn I do know my friends slash I guess the text of Sappho.

Heather: You did really well.

Drew: You crushed it. I also went through… To make sure the game worked, I tried it on several people. Some people who do know me better than you do, Christina, and they all could not do it. So I was very impressed by you.

Christina: Sounds like I’m a winner, which is all that matters.

Drew: Heather, tell us what that word is for our fanfiction.

Heather: It’s just crossover.

Christina: It’s a crossover, yeah!

Drew: Crossover! Oh, okay. Okay. I thought there was some fancy word for it. But anyways, if someone wants to write Vida fanfic that’s a crossover, it’s something else that I love. I’d love to see more of it. So our main topic this week is not fanfic. It is long-term relationships. Because, Heather, how long have you been in your current relationship?

Heather: I have been with my wife for 11 years.

Drew: Oh, that’s so long.

Christina: Drew, have you done anything consistently for 11 years? Because I certainly haven’t.

Drew: No, not even gender. I haven’t done anything. What have I done? I’m trying to think if I can think of anything that I’ve done for 11 years. I mean, I’ve—

Christina: Nicotine. I have done some form of nicotine for 11 years. Nailed it.

Drew: Wow. I haven’t even had any addictions that have gone that long.

Christina: Oh, okay. Brag.

Drew: Except there’s certain art things that I’ve loved for 11 years.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like there’s probably movies.

Drew: My relationship with Agnes Varda and Jane Campion, those are over 11 years long.

Christina: That tracks.

Drew: Yeah. But yeah. Wow. So I’d love to start off by just getting more backstory about you and Stacy.

Heather: Sure.

Drew: Can I say her name on the podcast?

Heather: Yes, yes, yes. You can say it.

Drew: Or you want me not?

Heather: No, it’s…

Drew: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Christina: It’d be really funny if we bleeped it though. It’d be really dramatic.

Heather: It would be so dramatic.

Christina: If we had a musical sting every time we said her name. Could be fun.

Drew: So I just want to start by just like, how did you meet? What’s the story there?

Heather: Yeah. So we met on Twitter in 2010, which is, I don’t know. Were you guys on Twitter in 2010? How old were you in 2010? You were?

Christina: I was.

Drew: I was on in 2011, I joined.

Christina: It was the embarrassing time of me being on Twitter. It was like when I didn’t understand who I was talking to or why. I was adding celebrities randomly.

Heather: It was a free-for-all.

Christina: It was bad.

Heather: It was like the first exposure regular people had ever had to celebrities or TV writers in a way where you could engage one on one. It was a mess.

Christina: It was not cute. But we all grew and got a different kind of worse on Twitter. So that’s beautiful.

Heather: It’s a different kind of mess now, yeah. So it was like 2010 and I was writing for a different queer website. I guess it’s a lesbian only website that shall not be named.

Christina: We do not speak it, yes.

Heather: We do not speak it. And I was writing some Skins recaps and… Mm-hmm (affirmative). I know.

Christina: That’s beautiful stuff.

Heather: And so you know how TV fans are on Twitter? And this has never changed. They either love what you write and they think you’re a genius or they’re like, I wish you would die in a fire tornado and your corpse would be eaten by sharks. Anyway, so I was kind of navigating that for the first time. And one day Stacy, out of the blue, tweeted me a video of Paula Dean getting hit in the face with a canned ham.

Christina: High art and comedy. Incredible.

Heather: Classic. We have a very similar sense of humor. To this day, watching Paula Dean get hit in the face with a ham, any racist getting hit in the face with a ham, is a beautiful thing to me. So she tweeted that at me and I was like, who is this clown? And we started tweeting back and forth. And then we started in the Twitter DMs and then we started emailing. And yeah, I guess we sort of declared our intentions because we started sending playlists instead of just emails. You know that sort of elevates it.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: Yeah, that’s pretty gay.

Heather: And then we met in 2011 when I was in New York for work. I lived in Georgia at the time, where I was born and raised, and she lived in New York City. So yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I was going to ask how far the distance was. I just assumed there was a distance. I was like, well—

Heather: Definitely a distance. And yeah, I was in New York for work, funnily enough, for the US Skins release party.

Christina: Oh right. I forgot that they did that.

Heather: The universally beloved US Skins.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heather: Yeah. And we met up then and that was 2011 and then here we are.

Christina: Here we are at the tail end of 2021.

Drew: Wow. At what point did you think like, oh, this could be something real?

Heather: I think when we met in real life the first time. When I sort of look back on it now, the first night that we spent together was just so surreal and uncharacteristic for both of us. We went to dinner and then we went to this Skin’s premiere party, which was a complete, just total shit show. There had been a blizzard. The party was in a warehouse on the waterfront. And the cops came and busted the whole thing up. And we got chased off by the cops and then we were in the back of this cab and it was snowing. And in my life, when something bad happens, I’m like, oh, well, on to the next adventure. But Stacy does not get over things really quickly. She doesn’t downshift that fast. She needs some time to feel her disappointment and process her disappointment. And I could look back now and see her in the cab, just like, should I just leave this girl here and go home and never see her again? But then we went to The Cubbyhole, the gay bar in New York City.

Christina: Classic.

Heather: Which we’ve never been back to since that night, in over a decade. But we stayed there until it shut down. I’d never been in a bar till it closed before. They rang a bell. I was like, what the hell is that? And then it was like 3:00 AM. And then we went to get a cheeseburger. We stayed out like the whole night, which is just so out of character for both of us. And I think it’s really indicative of our relationship, I think, where it was just like, this is awesome. Let’s just do the next thing. This is so fun. Let’s just do the next thing. And I think that’s just been exactly how our relationship has been for like 11 years. Every step has just been like, this part’s great. What’s the next thing we can do? So yeah.

Christina: All of that is so baffling to me. It’s so beautiful. It’s straight up out of some sort of rom-dramedy on a streaming service. I would love to see it portrayed.

Heather: What streaming service?

Christina: Can’t quite tell yet. I think… If it was like younger adults, I would absolutely say Netflix.

Heather: Sure.

Christina: But this kind of mid, it’s tough to say.

Heather: It’s true.

Christina: We might have to add a fantasy element. We’ll see what happens. We’ll see what happens. How have you guys navigated this whole… So much of your life has changed in 10 years, like Drew and I were just talking, we haven’t done anything the same in 10 years. How do you navigate changing and growing with a person in that way?

Heather: That’s a great question.

Christina: Also, I love that this is just Drew and I interviewing you on what’s it like to be an adult with an adult relationship? We simply do not know.

Heather: I think that’s so much of the thing about successful long-term relationships… People in long-term relationships are so smug when they talk about it, but the truth is that there’s just so much luck involved in it. If it happens, and the timing is right and the luck is there and the luck remains there, it’s not… When I met Stacy, I was not ready to think about being in the kind of relationship that would lead to marriage. And she certainly was not. We were ready to flirt on Twitter and then we were ready to meet. Then we were ready to go for a cheeseburger at 3:00 AM. You know what I mean? Neither of us were ready for what it became. And I don’t think either of us had ever been ready for the next step until we were ready for the next step. I certainly was not looking for that.

Christina: That’s always what they say, right? You can’t be searching. You got to let it come to you in a moment.

Heather: You got to just wait for that video of Paula Dean’s ham face.

Christina: I will say, if I ever see that video again, I will be like, where did it come from? That person is my intended.

Drew: Before Stacy, what was your relationship history and what was hers? Was this the first long-term relationship that you both had? Or had you both done this before on a smaller scale?

Heather: Yeah, I think we had both done it on a smaller scale. Stacy was out in high school in rural Wisconsin. She’s just the coolest, bravest person that I know.

Christina: Go the hell off, Stacy.

Heather: I mean, she’s just… She’s just amazing. And so anyway, she was just out and she was like dating in high school. She was dating people she knew. She was dating on the internet. She went to film school at Northwestern, which is just full of queer people. And she dated plenty of people there and she was dating in New York. And I also dated some really wonderful women and I was in some very complicated situation-ships, because I was in rural Georgia so I was in some complicated friendships with straight women.

Christina: Right.

Drew: Yeah. Yep.

Heather: But yeah, I think we had both dated. I think neither of us had ever really been with somebody that made us just want to take whatever the next step was that got us to the place where we had never been before.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heather: Yeah.

Christina: Wow.

Drew: Yeah. Well, because, okay, so Christina, what’s your longest relationship or what is your history with “long term relationships,” whatever that means to you?

Christina: My longest relationship was a smooth nine months. That’s it. It was long, but it also was marked by my girlfriend at the time being like, “Oh, I’m going to move in this fall.” So I was like, oh, okay. So like this is long-term dating with an expiration date. And I suppose there is a possibility where we, different people or differently in our relationship, we would have continued said relationship. But both of us were kind of like, no, doing a long distance thing is not really where we want to be. And before that, I don’t know, like three months, two months? Like longish dating. Kind of just around the point where you’re like, is this the girlfriend situation? Also a lot of those were with cis men, bravely of me. So brave. So every day I was so brave. So yeah, and which is strange… Not strange because I famously hate dating and that’s why we have this podcast because I hate dating and Drew loves doing it. But the thing about me is, in a long term steady scenario, that’s really where CT is going to thrive. CT is going to be here baking, ideally not working and having some sort of businesswoman wife who does stuff outside for me and then I just do the inside stuff. That’s really where I’m going to thrive. I just got to get there. I just got to do the bad part first, which is the dating part.

Heather: I agree with you completely.

Drew: Yeah, you would be an amazing wife.

Christina: Really? Just chef’s kiss. Chef’s kiss of it.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: What about you? You’ve had a long relationship.

Drew: Yeah. So my first long-term relationship was a few months into college. It was my first serious relationship. And I wasn’t the luckiest, coolest in high school. So this was the first person who… I had kissed a few people, but this was really the first person who I had any sort of relationship with. And that also was a similar situation where there was an expiration date because part of her program was studying abroad her entire junior year, and she was a sophomore when I was a freshman. So a lot of our relationship was marked by this knowledge that we would break up at the end of the summer. Then we did. And then we got back together because we were young and stupid and we should not have, and then there was like several months… So technically we dated for a year and some months, but the last, I don’t know, six months of that was miserable. We barely talked. It was awful. She cheated on me. I didn’t even know that until years later and I didn’t even care at that point because I looked back on it and I was like, oh, that was the least of the concerns. It was mostly the six months where we didn’t talk, but we were still together. So I had that relationship where it was just very much like, “I’m 18!” And then I had my last serious relationship, which was about three and a half years, a little less. And that one was like, we lived together for about a year and a half, I think it was, and really shared a life together in a way that felt… The year before we broke up, I had started putting money aside for us to get a dog. And we had talked about marriage at some point. That was a very serious relationship. And I look back on both of those relationships, but especially the second one, as very positive. Even though it ended, it was a very successful relationship. I think we both grew a lot. And we’re not still friends, and she doesn’t like when I write about her or talk about her, so I probably should not get into too many specifics. But I view it very positively. And then something that I think I’m thinking about a lot right now is that I’m… And this is also something I’m not going to talk about a lot. But I’m sort of stepping, tiptoeing into what looks like it might be my next relationship of sorts. And so I think I’m thinking a lot about the past and the future and… Because I do think, what you’re saying, Heather, about it being largely about luck and about living in the moment and being like, oh, I want to take this next step with this person. Instead of being like, oh, I met this person and they’re going to be my forever person. That’s so intense. And I don’t know if I even really believe in that, at least for myself. And so it’s more just, it’s not like, oh, well what’s the secret? As much as it is… I guess I actually am trying to think and just lower the pressure all around in a way that I think in my first two serious relationships, I was very conscious of like, where’s this going to go? Where is this going to go? Where is this going to go? And this time I’m like, I just keep wanting to talk to this person and see this person and this person just makes me really happy. And as long as that continues, like, wow, how great. And trying to remove some of the pressure.

Heather: Yeah. I think one of the major problems I think around long-term relationships is that there’s a zero sum approach to dating, right? It’s like you’re trying to answer a yes no question. And it’s like, every step you take, it’s like, is this person the one? Is this person who I’m going to spend the rest of my life with? And I just think that’s kind of baloney. I don’t believe in that kind of thing. I don’t believe in “the one.” I don’t believe in that zero sum where you go and every date is where you’re trying to meet someone that you’re going to also die with. That’s just too much pressure to exist underneath. And so I think when people talk about “the one,” I think it takes a lot of personal responsibility off of relationships. And I also think it takes a lot of what I really do believe is just the luck of waking up every day and both you and the other person or other people wanting to continue to work at the relationship. And there’s no secret to that. That’s just, there’s some things you can do and you can control. But the hard part about admitting that about dating is that it really does just, there’s just no control over it whatsoever. And that’s very hard. It’s really hard.

Christina: Yeah. I know. That’s why I love dating. It’s so fun and loosey goosey and uncontrolled. All of my favorite words. I love that.

Heather: I know. Christina, you just said this, and it’s really interesting because it’s like the game that y’all played, “Would U-Haul.” Where it’s like, and I liked the way you talked about this because this is kind of how I felt when I was dating as well, where it’s almost like you have to trick yourself into not thinking further than like… Like when Drew was describing that scenario. It’s like there was the weekend and then you were together for like three months. And like you were saying a long-term relationship with an expiration date on it. You almost have to trick your brain into not spiraling further down the road.

Christina: Maybe that’s what I need to start working on is more brain trickery for me and just less overthinking and anxiety, perhaps, would be helpful for me.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, in my current situation, starting a long distance relationship during a pandemic with someone who lives in another country, when it started, it was, oh, I’m flirting with a hot person on Instagram. And there were people in Los Angeles who I was like, I have feelings for that person. What would that be? If we started dating, what would it be like? What would my involvement in that person’s life be? And all of those things did not work out. Whereas the person who I was like, oh, this hot person who I enjoy talking to every few weeks on Instagram, I had to trick myself. And I’m sure there are people out there who are emotionally well adjusted, who don’t need to trick themselves into getting into…

Christina: Huge, if true.

Drew: But for me, and maybe for all of us, it did require a certain amount of like, oh, this is always going to be casual. Oh, is it?

Heather: Right. Right.

Drew: So, yeah. I don’t know. I guess flirt with people in other countries? That’s terrible advice. You should probably go to therapy. But it’s worked for me.

Christina: Also, Drew, think about our audience. They’re already doing that. Let’s be honest.

Drew: It is true.

Christina: Come on, now. Come on, now.

Heather: This is a funny conversation for me because I do experience things in the moment and I don’t tend to worry too much about… I’m not a big processor. I’m not a big spiraler. I just, whatever happens, I feel like I’ll do it. And then if it works out, I’ll be excited. And if not, I’ll figure out how to fix it, that it didn’t work. And Stacy is not like that at all. She’s a person who experiences time in a very non-linear way. And it’s like both the past and the future like crushing in on her at all times. So being in a long distance relationship with no real aim when we were first together was actually very easy for me. But I think for her, it was not. The more secure our relationship got, the better it got because she was as secure as I was. But yeah, it is interesting to think about that now.

Christina: How long were you—

Drew: You are a Sagittarius?

Heather: I am.

Drew: I’m sorry. I was immediately pivoting to astrology.

Heather: It’s true.

Christina: We are going to astrology, but I did want to know how long you guys were long distance before you were in person?

Heather: About two years, two and a half years probably. And even just moving in was as silly as everything else. It was like, we were just at dinner one night when I was visiting her in New York and we were like, “Let’s move in.” “Okay, good idea.” You know what I mean? It was not a big processing thing. It was just like, this feels like the next step for us. Let’s do it. I think probably, in terms of the most processing we’ve ever done about a next step in our relationship, it was finally getting rid of the Ikea furniture. We’ve moved on to the place where we’re going to have assembled furniture into our house. That’s the thing, probably, that we’ve spent the most time really processing.

Christina: That is fascinating.

Heather: Yeah.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah, Drew, get into astrology.

Drew: Oh, I was just going to say that, that checks out with you being a Sag sun and I was wondering what Stacy’s sun sign was?

Heather: She is an Aries.

Christina: Ooh, intriguing.

Heather: Yeah.

Christina: Fiery.

Heather: Very fiery and no grudges. We don’t hold on to arguments. We just talk it out and we’re done. We don’t bring up past stuff, ever.

Christina: That sounds healthy.

Drew: That actually brings me to the next thing that I wanted to talk about because I think something that I see friends struggle with all the time is when they’re having problems in their long-term relationships being like, when do you know that you should work on it? And when is it time to give up on it? Because I think for myself, I don’t really struggle with that because I do think we had, as we talked about last week, I do just sort of jump to breakups pretty quickly, or just to… At least when, I don’t know, I think relatively quickly. And so sometimes I’ll have friends talking about problems in their relationships and I’ll be like, well, if I was this person I would not be in this relationship, but also they seem to have a relationship to fighting and to conflict that I don’t have. So do you have any thoughts on that as far as like… Because obviously, long-term relationships do take work and they’re not going to be perfect. But sort of figuring out the difference between innate incompatibility and just the normal difficulties of life?

Heather: Yeah. I’m going to say something that’s the weirdest thing about mine and Stacy’s relationship, which is that in 11 years, she has never, and I have never, said anything to intentionally hurt the other person. Ever. And we are very nice to each other. We are really kind and very careful with each other. We are more careful with each other than we are with anybody else. And we’re more careful with each other’s feelings. We’re more attentive. And I think we’ve understood that us as individuals and us as a couple, it’s a very fragile thing in a very hard world. And so in our relationship, in the conflict that we’ve had, there’s never been conflict we’ve had where I have felt like Stacy and I are on opposite… I don’t ever feel like we’re fighting each other. I don’t feel like we’re on opposite sides of a table trying to get what we want. I feel like we’re on the same side of the table trying to figure out something that’s on the other side of the table. We’re together trying to figure out how to fix the thing that’s over there. I always feel like she’s on my team. We saw a couples therapist early on after we moved in together. And one thing that she worked with us on and that has stuck with me, I think it’s the most profound thing anyone’s ever helped me realize, was that so oftentimes in conflict we revert to these very traumatized childhood versions of ourselves. And so we behave like the childhood versions of ourselves. We behave like these hurt children who don’t have the resources and tools to do the things that we do as adults. So she told us to think about when you’re in conflict about these specific things, think, Heather, you’re reacting as this 12 year old child. And Stacy, you’re reacting as your 12 year old child. And when she was telling us that I was imagining Stacy and I being like 12 years old, in our different lives, and how hard it was for us to, at that time, individually and what all we went through and sort of just the hard parts of our life. And I think about what if those little 12 year old girls were able to be together in a tree house. And I have this vision of us in a tree house at dusk with fireflies and whatever in this place where each of our 12 year old selves could be safe. And so when we have conflict that brings out those traumas in us, I always think back to us being like, okay, in this moment, we’re just these kids and we just need to be a safe place for these kids to deal with these really scary feelings and then we can be the adults that we are in our relationship. So yeah, I think, just for us, I don’t think we’ve ever had a conflict or a series of conflicts that have made me question our relationship. Because even in the hard stuff that we’ve dealt with and tried to figure out, I’ve never felt like we were against each other. I’ve never felt like we’re at odds with each other. And I’ve also never felt like we’re trying to actually hurt each other. Not that we don’t hurt each other, just that we’re not trying to hurt each other.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: Right. Wow. First of all, if this podcast doesn’t get you a damn self-help book deal, then I think we have failed as a nation and as a people.

Heather: I am an elderly lesbian. I’ve lived a lot of lives.

Christina: Yeah, that was beautiful as hell, dog. What the hell? Coming out here on this Tuesday afternoon with feelings.

Drew: Wow. Yeah, I’m like, my heart. Yeah. I think a lot about how people are really afraid to be alone. And we talked about this on our breakup episode. And because so many of us have experiences with families or, I don’t know, other relationships or whatever that have taught us certain expectations, I sometimes think that just collectively our expectations and what we think we deserve is not high enough. And what you’re saying about how you and Stacy are never against each other, that there’s still conflict, but that you aren’t in conflict with each other, is so poignant to me and, I think, is something that is really possible for relationships in general. And I think so many relationships are just filled with conflict. And, look, if that works for certain people, that’s fine and I’m not here to judge. But I at least know for myself that that’s really inspiring to me. Because I think when I do look at the few relationships I’ve had, thinking when we’ve had fights. And it’s like, well, did we ever have fights? Like I didn’t have fights like when you watch, I don’t know, Marriage Story or whatever else, like there was no screaming.

Christina: Right.

Drew: There were tense moments. There were disagreements. I do think that approaching your partner from a place of compassion and wanting to… Because the question, right, when you have conflicts of any type is, is your goal to resolve this conflict so both or all parties are as satisfied as possible or is your goal to have conflict?

Christina: Right. Right.

Drew: Are you trying to fight or are you fighting because of these other things and you don’t want to be fighting? And I think a lot of people don’t know how to not want to be fighting.

Christina: And to win the fight, also. There’s a large dynamic of it doesn’t matter what the outcome is, as long as we have agreed that I was correct and I have won this argument.

Heather: Right.

Christina: Which is, I think, troubling. A troubling way to approach interpersonal relationships.

Heather: Absolutely. And yeah, I’m curious what y’all’s relationship is in terms of like… I am a generally conflict avoidant person and that also came into play in my relationships. Are y’all like that? Are y’all conflict avoidant or are you…

Christina: My Mercury is in cancer and so is my Mars. So I am what Chani Nicholas calls “a warrior waterlogged.” That’s right. You heard it here, folks. Passive aggressive as hell. It’s hot. It sucks. It is something that I’m trying to be better at because I have an absolute tendency to sulk and be an absolute cunt and not express why I am acting that way. Which is fun for no one, turns out. So that’s not fun for me. Drew, like you’re good at—

Drew: Well. Okay. So I think what I struggle with with conflict is that oftentimes I will be like, well, I’ll do what I was just suggesting other people do too much, where I’ll be like, well, I don’t want to be fighting. And so this isn’t that big of a deal, so I’ll just let it go. And I think what I’ve had to learn is to be more honest with myself about when I’m actually letting it go versus when I’m building resentments. So I guess it is sort of conflict averse because I am like… I mean with big things, I’ll talk about them. I’m not afraid of conflict when it comes to things that I think really matter. And I think I’ve had to accept the fact that certain things that I’m like, “This is so stupid. Why do I care about it?” Part of that sentence, that question I just asked myself, was “I care about it.” I might not know why, but I’ve learned that saying to friends or roommates or a partner or whatever that like, even to say, “This is stupid, but I’m having a feeling about this” is better than just in my own head saying, “this is stupid, don’t have a feeling about it,” because I am. And so often I’ll say that and the other person will validate it or be like, yeah, that’s stupid. But yeah, I won’t do that thing. Or I get why you feel that way. Or we just talk about it. And even sometimes saying it out loud, the “stupidity” of it, becomes more emotional and not just intellectual. Because I think I can think myself out of a lot of things, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not still a person with feelings. So I think I’ve had to work on getting to a place—

Christina: No, it does. Sorry, it does. I just wanted to jump in.

Drew: Oh, okay. Cool, yeah. Totally.

Christina: You can logic yourself out of a feeling.

Drew: Great. Good to know. Good to know.

Christina: I am crushing it.

Drew: But yeah. So I don’t know. I think that’s something that I had to learn and I think something that… I think it’s very possible to be in a long-term relationship and grow with the other person and change, obviously. I also think sometimes, especially thinking about — I started my one relationship when I was 18, I started the other relationship when I was 21. There were certain patterns that were established in those relationships that simply couldn’t change, that were just too challenging for the two of us to get out of the patterns that we had built. And so I think after my last relationship, I was very hyper conscious about the future relationships that I was getting into. Or even just the flings I was getting into and being like, is this doing this to me? Is this doing that to me? And being really scared of — honestly having commitment issues for the first time in my life. Because before transitioning all I wanted was commitment because I had this idea that if I met the right person, then I wouldn’t have my gender feelings. And so I was like, I just need to find my soulmate. I need to find my soulmate. I need to find my soulmate.

Heather: That’s all.

Christina: Nothing huge!

Drew: No, but I mean, it was so… What a terrible way to date, especially as a cis straight guy who everyone thinks is gay. And so then I, in leaving my last relationship and then I have the period of time where I was just single and wanting to be single and enjoy it. And then once I got to a place where I was like, oh, I think I am ready for another relationship, I was so scared of, I don’t want to be in a relationship where I feel like I’m being controlled or where I don’t have as much time for my work or I lose track of myself or I give too much to the person or all these traps that I fell into and previous relationships. And I think I’ve just learned that it is possible to start new relationships from a place of communicating those fears.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And instead of either just committing or not committing, being like, I really enjoy talking to you. Here are my fears. And obviously sometimes our community can process too much, so be spare. Please know your strengths and weaknesses and know that if you are someone who needs to be doing that more or needs to be doing that less, I’m also talking about if you are genuinely getting into a relationship with someone, not like you went on two dates with someone and you want to talk to them about your fears, please don’t do that. Or do it if you want to, I guess, just not to me.

Christina: And if they want to hear them, you know?

Drew: Yeah. You know, everyone’s different. But I think for myself of entering into this new thing, being like, wow, I just, anytime I’m having doubts or fears, I say things out loud in a way that’s kind and in a way that’s… I mean, I wouldn’t say anything not kind, because I don’t have anything not kind to say at the current moment. But just communicating it and then afterwards I’m like, wait, do I feel better after saying how I feel? Instead of in the past feeling this intense, emotional, what my old therapist used to call vulnerability hangovers. And I was like, oh, I’m not feeling that as much because instead of two years into a relationship being like, I think I need to be vulnerable more. Oh, I’m saying these things in a way that I never have with this person who I live with. Instead, it’s like, oh, I’m creating a new language of this relationship. And in that new language of this new relationship, vulnerability is loud and it’s thrilling. And now I don’t really have doubts. All those doubts and fears and commitment issues have just sort of gone away because I know that it’s safe for me to express it. It’s something about because it’s safe to express, they don’t exist anymore.

Christina: This sounds like fanfiction to me, but go on.

Heather: What’s really funny… You two are really funny in this way. It’s that you express yourself in this way where you’re like, oh, this might be a stupid thing or I don’t know if I could say this out loud. Except for the thing is that you are creating a podcast that so many people are relating to and listening to. And everything that you say that you’re like, this might be this or this might be that, they’re like, yes, I feel that! I feel that! Yes, I feel that! And it’s like you are creating a space for everybody else to be able to have comfort with these emotions that you are sitting with in a way that’s not comfortable for you, when they’re obviously universal. And that it does help to say that stuff out loud because being afraid in the dark is the worst time to be afraid. Being afraid alone is the worst time to be afraid. And when you can just give voice to that stuff, it comforts you. And you both are comforting so many other people. I just wish that would bounce back at you. Maybe you should listen to your own podcast more and then your fears would let go.

Drew: Wow. I mean, we have to, to give notes and stuff.

Christina: Yeah, we’re listening for edits, though.

Heather: Right. Right.

Christina: I feel like it’s not the same as taking it in maybe.

Drew: I do think that it has been really… I don’t know. It’s interesting. Because there are ways in which both this podcast and writing about relationships on the internet and those sorts of things, being very public about my personal life in a controlled, specific way.

Heather: Sure.

Drew: I don’t know. There are ways that it has been really helpful for me. It has validated certain things where I felt alone in certain feelings and then been like, oh… I mean, something I think about a lot is if Christina and I need to frame it in a way that is self-deprecating, the way to frame it is, we’re not that special. That is the way of doing it in a way that’s negative, which is there’s always someone—

Christina: How dare you.

Drew: Lots of people. Sorry, Christina, you’re special. You know what it is? You are special, but your insecurities are not what makes you special.

Christina: That’s fair. I’ll take that.

Drew: Your doubts, your fears, those things are universal. What makes you special is all the other things. And so I think that has been something that’s been really thrilling to see. And with Autostraddle readership and listenership of people being like, this is so comforting, this is so validating and being like, oh, wow, that’s valid.

Christina: It’s a two way street.

Heather: It is.

Christina: It’s a two way street. It’s really lovely.

Heather: Yeah, your insecurities don’t make you special. But the fact that you’re willing to share your insecurities in a way that allows other people to feel less insecure, I think that’s actually very special. It’s really rare.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: I would like to let everybody know that, unfortunately, Heather is now a required member of this podcast. I actually just need just this energy. I just need this little boost every day of my life. So..

Heather: I’ll come on and do the game show cheering.

Christina: Yeah! We just need a cheering section.

Heather: Yeah, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. So Heather, do you have a takeaway from your 11 years of being in a charming relationship?

Heather: Big takeaway? I think the best thing that you can do in a relationship, the most important thing you can do in a relationship, is to always play along with the other person’s bits. Stacy and I never leave each other hanging on the bits. Whatever it is, whatever the joke is, whatever the song is, whatever the dance is, the other person always picks it up.

Christina: That’s actually really beautiful. Bits are so important.

Heather: They’re so important. I think that, Drew, one of your great gifts in writing is that sort of, I’ve told you this before, the banter. The chemistry, the banter of the dialogue. And I think that is so important in connecting to someone in the beginning, but we lose that so often in relationships. And I think it’s so important to keep that thing that you start doing at the beginning. I think it’s important to just deepen it. And I think one of the things that I said in my wedding vows that I think is so important is that, what I want to build with Stacy is a language of inside jokes that lasts a lifetime and that no one else will ever understand. And I think that our bits started 11 years ago and we’re still doing so many of the same bits. They’ve just grown and become something else. And I just think it’s, I think just those little things are the most fun and the most important. And there’s not a day that goes by that we are not, truly — even though we’ve been stuck in this house together two years now working from home, side by side, same table — when we’re not really making each other heartily laugh out loud with our little, little jokes.

Christina: I love that. I love more jokes for all.

Heather: Yes.

Christina: That’s the dream.

Drew: Yeah, it’s like, no lesbian bit death.

Heather: No lesbian bit death. Exactly.

Christina: I have to go. That just killed me.

Drew: Christina is ending the podcast because of that pun.

Christina: Because of that bit, I simply have to go. But you know, Drew, we can always identify as women of bit experience and I think that’s really beautiful for us.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: So it’s time for Crush Corner, isn’t it?

Drew: Yes, it is.

Christina: Heather came locked and loaded with a crush. Who you got for us?

Heather: It is Serena Williams.

Christina: Oh 10, 10.

Heather: Oh, man. Everything she does. And I just, I don’t know when this podcast will air, but in real life, the Met Gala was last… Gala, gala? What do you say, gala?

Drew: It can be gay.

Christina: Gay-la. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heather: It was last night and, gosh, she’s just perfect. She is just so sexy and so beautiful and stunning and smart and funny and athletic and everything she does is perfect to me. And I don’t know, I just follow all her Instagrams. She has an Instagram, her daughter has an Instagram. She has an Instagram for her daughter’s weird doll. And I said this earlier, but every time she’s out with her husband, he looks so shocked that he’s married to Serena Williams.

Christina: He does. He has extreme wife-guy energy, in a very charming way.

Heather: Absolutely. And I think that’s just what I feel like about her always. Anytime I can love on Serena is a good day for me.

Christina: Wow. That’s really beautiful. I love that. Drew, who you got?

Drew: Okay. So the new season of Sex Education is, well, it will be out when this comes out and I had screeners so it’s out for me right now. And I couldn’t pick one person. My crush is the whole cast. And also maybe the whole writing staff and directing staff. I love it so much.

Christina: It’s a really good season.

Drew: It’s so good. It’s one of my favorite seasons of television that’s ever been made, which, I’m a very hyperbolic person, so take that with what you take it with. But I just, I love the cast so much and they’re just so like… They’re all so charming. And every year, new cast members get added and they fit in so well. It’s like they just have somewhere where they have all these charming British people and they’re just all getting onto the show. And I just, I love them all so much. And I think I’ve said that I think my personality is like — if you just like take all the Sex Education characters — I realize that a few episodes ago, or maybe it was the last episode, that I said that my personality was the two main characters of Princess Cyd. So basically what we’ve learned is that I go into media looking to see my personality split among a bunch of people.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: But there’s so much about so many different… I think what it is showing about that show is that all of the characters are so well developed and so well performed that they all feel real. And regardless of how different I am from those characters, because of that reality that’s felt, I see things in them that connect to me just on a basic sort of human level. And so that is why I’m like, oh, wow, I relate to all of you. And that’s what good writing and good acting is called. So I guess my crush of the week is the show Sex Education. But I also, it’s a very attractive cast as well. I mean, come on.

Christina: A real banger of a cast. 10 out of 10, I’d say on that one. For my crush, I’m going platonic again. And I’m saying Lil Nas X because I personally feel every time he does something incredible, which is every time he logs onto twitter.com the website, or creates a TikTok, or creates music, or goes to an event, I just feel like that is my baby cousin and I feel so proud of him every time he does something. And his People pregnancy photo shoot that was about his album is so brilliant. And it was a People exclusive, which is so funny that People was like, yeah, absolutely. We’re going to pay for the exclusive rights to this made up concept. It’s just like, he’s so brilliant. He is truly a child of the internet who has learned how to use his powers for good and delight, as opposed to making me roll my eyes and make me exhausted. And I just am so proud of him. I can’t wait till the album comes out. And I just feel like I know him and I don’t at all know him in any way. We are not related, but he is my cousin. So do with that what you will.

Heather: Love it.

Christina: That is my crush.

Heather: I love it.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: Well, Heather, can you tell the people where they can find you?

Heather: You can find me on autostraddle.com all the time, and on Twitter @theheatherhogan, and that’s the best place to find me and my cats.

Christina: I was going to say, there’s always cat content.

Heather: Yeah. I feel like I’m most famous for cats and making men cry. And that’s what you can find at twitter.com.

Christina: It’s an incredible tagline.

Drew: And so the last thing that we want to ask, as we always do, because we love to get some clarity, was: was this conversation a date?

Christina: Was it? I don’t know. I feel like probably no, because we just heard a really long story about a really charming 11 year long relationship.

Drew: Can you imagine? Can you imagine if you went on a date and someone did that? Heather still hasn’t answered, but can you imagine?

Heather: This is what it’s like to go on a date with me. So, yes. I feel like this was probably a date.

Drew: You just, you talk—

Christina: I love that.

Drew: Someone’s like, I thought we were going on a date. And you’re like, no, I’m just going to talk about my wife.

Heather: Yes. That’s exactly what it’s like. And also just to encourage — I just want to encourage you because I love you guys and I think you’re so wonderful. And that’s what it’s like to be on a date with me. To be like, no, I would just want to push this back at you and tell you, I think you’re great. And I loved talking to you and I love listening to you. And I think you are both going major places in the world, and I’m just glad to be a part of this small little piece of it.

Drew: Thank you, Heather.

Christina: I did not pencil in a therapy appointment today, so this was a fun surprise.

Heather: So this was a date!

Christina: So that is what a date is! Thank you so much.

Drew: Christina, that was your first mistake because our podcast episodes are always a therapy session for you.

Christina: That’s true.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: I was 16 when the movie Blue Valentine came out and I became obsessed with it. And I’d show it to people and they’d be like, this is really depressing. And I’d be like, oh my God, no, it’s not depressing. The whole point of the movie is that it’s happy because, yeah, it’s miserable and they’re fighting and they break up. But at the same time, we’re seeing them fall in love. And the point is that even when things end, they were good at one point. I of course had not been in a relationship while I was giving these speeches about long-term relationships and marriage. But now I have been in relationships and you know what, I think 16 year old me was right.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 106: You Should Probably Break Up

Dating isn’t all sexting and thirst traps. It’s also heartbreak. This week on Wait, Is This a Date? we’re joined by Autostraddle’s very own Sex and Dating Editor Ro White to discuss break ups. We’re talking break up strategy, when to break up, and the gay tradition of remaining friends afterward.

But first! We begin with my free association of break ups to cancel culture and play a game of “Is This a Real Queer Celebrity Scandal or Did Drew Just Make It Up?” Fun!

SHOW NOTES

+ Speaking of cancel culture, listen to these very good cancel culture episodes of Bad with Money and You’re Wrong About.

+ I haven’t read it but here’s the Marlene Dietrich biography written by her daughter Maria Riva.

+ I was going to link to a You Need Help about break ups but honestly just scroll through the whole tag. It’s what Riese sent me back in 2019.

+ The Janelle Monáe post Christina mentioned.

+ This is what I wrote about Princess Cyd for our 50 Best Lesbian+ Films of the Decade list:

The first time I watched Princess Cyd I watched it again a few hours later. My girlfriend at the time got home from work and I was bursting with a certain chaotic enthusiasm anyone who knows me knows too well. I insisted it would just be easier to show her than try and articulate why I’d fallen so deeply and completely in love with this movie. So we watched it! And she understood! How could she not? Because Princess Cyd is so, so good.

The mostly non-existent plot is Cyd decides to spend a summer with her novelist aunt Miranda. As she explores her casually pansexual desires – most significantly with hottie barista Katie – she also reflects on the memory of her mother and learns to respect Miranda’s less sexual approach to life. The experience of watching the movie is like being invited to one of Miranda’s living room readings. The experience of watching the movie is like being a part of one of Cyd’s trysts. The experience of watching the movie is like remembering the best summer of your life that you didn’t even realize was the best summer of your life until years later you think back on a small moment that shouldn’t mean much and realize it means everything. Every time I open Netflix I hover the cursor over Princess Cyd tempted to sink back into its world. After texting one friend about this movie for the millionth time she said: “I feel like instead of an eternal flame at your grave should just be a speaker of your voice wailing PRINCESS CYD IS SO GOOOOOD on repeat. Forever.” Add it to my will.

Ro: This thing happens in queer communities that I’m wondering if we could talk about, where I’ve noticed a lot of monogamous queer folks and monogamous relationships opening up their relationship rather than breaking up. And I think that is a huge mistake, and I know this because I have done it.

Christina: Okay, we love the wisdom of experience.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Christina: I’m Christina!

Drew: Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast, all about the fun, fabulous, exhausting, whatever kind of adjective you feel like using, world of dating.

Drew: All of the above. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer and a filmmaker. I write for Autostraddle.com, the website, where I do a lot of film and TV stuff, and also dating stuff. I am a trans lesbian.

Christina: I am Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle. I am a lesbian on the Internet who is also a very tired experience today in this moment that’s feeling really beautiful, feeling really special, but I think we’re going to get somewhere fun today.

Drew: Yeah, I think that you’re bringing tiredness to a good episode because our main topic today is knowing when to break up. Fun stuff.

Christina: I am rather bafflingly just giving Drew a hang ten, famously podcasts are an audio medium, but it feels — just like transparency for our listeners that I am just kind of doing a hang ten. So we’ll see what happens today, I think.

Drew: That’s really brave of you to share. Really brave of you. Okay. Before we get to our main topic though, I have a game for us.

Christina: I bet you do!

Drew: Because we’re talking about breakups, I was thinking about more social breakups, existential breakups, scandals you might say, getting canceled. I mean, getting canceled, I think, actually usually means like there’s a little bit of drama and then everything’s fine. So I think these reflect that appropriately. And so I’m going to describe a scandal with a queer, and I want you to tell me if it is a real scandal that happened, or if me, Drew Gregory, wrote that. Okay?

Christina: I love this, and not only because you kind of just free associated with the idea of breakups, loving this energy.

Drew: Great. Thank you.

Christina: All right. I’m ready.

Drew: Okay. On the set of classic film, Charlie’s Angels, known abuser, Bill Murray, said to famed lesbian erotica painter, Lucy Lu, “You can’t act.” She started throwing punches and they had to be pulled off one another. Many believe this is why Murray was replaced by Bernie Mac in the sequel.

Christina: I believe this is true.

Drew: It is true.

Christina: As true as gossip stories can be, I suppose.

Drew: Sure. Yes. Thank you for really maintaining the journalistic integrity here, that the true ones are true in the sense that they were reported.

Christina: I think what we can use is it feels emotionally true that that occurred.

Drew: Yeah. Honestly, I think all of them feel emotionally true, but we’ll get to that.

Christina: Of course, you do.

Drew: Yes. Okay. Next up, Kate McKinnon faced backlash in April of 2019 when she was asked about ex-girlfriend, Bari Weiss. “We were young,” McKinnon said, “But I wish only the best for Bari. I love seeing her name pop up on my newsfeed.” Some felt McKinnon should have been much harsher toward Weiss, while others related to not wanting to get on the bad side of your most toxic ex.

Christina: Unfortunately this is true.

Drew: It’s not true.

Christina: Which isn’t true?

Drew: Kate McKinnon has never commented on Bari Weiss being her ex-girlfriend, which I think is really wise. I think she probably should continue to not comment on it because I can’t imagine that that would go well for her.

Christina: No good will come of her commenting on that, but in my head she already has, and, poorly, so.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. On March 3rd, 2014, power couple, Cara Delevingne and Michelle Rodriguez, got in trouble with PETA after pictures surfaced of them at the Big Cat Encounters Ranch. In one of the photos, Delevingne is kissing a six-month-old tiger on the head, even though the USDA explicitly bands kissing a tiger at that age. The owner of the ranch lost his conditional permit to house tigers.

Christina: I have no idea. I’m going to say that that did not happen.

Drew: It did happen.

Christina: Yeah, I should have known. I’ve been following Cara on Instagram for too long.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I will say that I phrased it in a way, like — you cannot kiss a tiger at six months old, but it’s not only at six months. It is that after the age of three months, you cannot kiss a tiger, because after the age of three months they are very dangerous.

Christina: I’m going to take the kind of radical position that no human should be kissing tigers. Not to get political on our dating podcast, but that’s annoying. Yeah.

Drew: I think that’s really good. Yeah, it’s an important issue. Okay. Going back a little further in time. Upon moving to Hollywood, Marlene Dietrich made her husband, Rudolf Sieber… Are you mocking me? Are you laughing at me? Okay, live away from her on a ranch in the San Fernando Valley. When he got his girlfriend pregnant, Dietrich insisted the woman get an abortion to avoid any scandal, even though they were married in name only. She then had Sieber moved back into her home where he acted as her butler.

Christina: I want this to be true. And also full transparency, I was laughing because you had said, “Let’s go back a little further back in time,” and then said Marlene Dietrich, who was alive in, like, the thirties, so quite a bit further. I’m going to say that this is true because it feels, to me, emotionally true.

Drew: It is true.

Christina: Great. Yeah.

Drew: Or at least this is what Marlene Dietrich’s daughter said happened.

Christina: Iconic. Incredible.

Drew: In a memoir about how awful a mother Marlene Dietrich was. So I think there’s a bias here, which makes me wonder if Sunset Boulevard is based on the relationship between Norma Desmond and her butler, if that’s based on Marlene Dietrich. This is what I was thinking about today.

Christina: Loving your day, for you.

Drew: Thanks. Okay. Next up, on February 14th, 2000, Anne Heche and Ellen DeGeneres attempted to apply for a marriage license in the state of Vermont. When they were denied, Heche began screaming at the registrar and they were removed from the county clerk’s office. DeGeneres stated that she was not aware of Heche’s plan and had merely accompanied her girlfriend for a “Valentine’s day surprise.” They broke up soon after.

Christina: I don’t believe that’s true.

Drew: It’s not — it’s so hard not to laugh! It’s not true, but I just really enjoyed picturing it. That one, to me, does feel emotionally true. That feels like what their dynamic would be, and I just can see Ellen DeGeneres throwing her girlfriend under the bus in the midst of a scandal.

Christina: I can see parts of that happening I think, Anne Heche having some kind of Vermont-based yelling experience, I can absolutely see. But I can’t see Ellen talking to press about it.

Drew: That’s a really good point. She would’ve said nothing. Good catch, good catch. Okay. This is the last one. In November of 2013, a group of South Dakotan ranchers demanded Joan Jett be removed from South Dakota’s official float in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade due to Jett being vegan. The organizers of the South Dakota float complied and Jett did not participate. One rancher said, “I call this a win for South Dakota and for beef producers everywhere.”

Christina: Wow. So many words that were in that that I didn’t expect. South Dakota, frankly, really threw me. I’m going to have to go ahead and say that that is not true.

Drew: It is true!

Christina: Great, incredible. I am happy for… Actually I don’t know who I’m happiest for in that scenario.

Drew: Oh, God. I had so much fun putting this together. Thank you for playing with me. Okay, the other thing that I learned, but this felt a little intense and also it’s not really a scandal because it’s not Jodie Foster’s fault, but did you know that Jodie Foster had a second stalker after John Hinckley Jr?

Christina: I did know that.

Drew: Okay. I didn’t know this, but the detail that I love the most from her Wikipedia page that — when you go to the article, it’s phrased a little bit differently, but on Wikipedia it says that the second stalker went to Yale, where she was at school, to kill her, but then decided not to after watching her college play.

Christina: When you see talent, you have to respect it.

Drew: I just think it’s so funny, the idea of going to a college theater performance and being like, “Yeah, I’m not going to kill this person because of that.”

Christina: Yeah. I didn’t know it was possible for a college theater performance to make that much of a difference in a person’s life.

Drew: I mean, that’s really what I’m getting at here.

Christina: Yeah, it’s beautiful.

Drew: Okay. Well, I’m a real fun world in the queer celebrity gossip and also, I guess, almost attempted murders. Now, it’s time to move on to hopefully a brighter topic, or maybe not, which is — look, I think breakups are a brighter topic than murder! Do you disagree?

Christina: Yeah. I think no one’s going to argue with you on that categorization specifically, fair enough.

Drew: Thank you. So you’re ready? Let’s do this.

Christina: Let’s absolutely do this.

Drew: Today, we are joined by a very special guest. Very special guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Ro: Sure! Hi, I am Ro White and I write for Autostraddle. I’m also the editor for our Slick series, which is our erotica series. And I teach sex ed, and I talk about dating a lot.

Christina: We love that. That’s the perfect experience and energy to bring right here to Wait, Is This a Date?

Ro: I am so thrilled to be here.

Christina: Talking about breakups? We’re going to have so much fun. The lightest topic of all, breakups.

Ro: Breakups are the best.

Christina: Yeah. They really can be, is the thing.

Drew: I want you to expand on that, because that feels genuine and I like that.

Ro: Yeah. I think we think of breakups as a terrible thing. And of course, they’re hard. But there is something really freeing about imagining your life a certain way and then moving in another direction. I think it’s similar to when someone quits a job. Sometimes there’s this feeling of relief and elation that goes along with just making a different choice for your life, especially when you find yourself going down a path that isn’t going to work for you. So I think whenever we either give ourselves the power to make that choice or whether that choice is just given to us by a partner, it can be a really beautiful life-changing thing.

Christina: Yeah. I super agree. I also think there’s a weird narrative that if we’ve broken up, that means everything about our relationship didn’t work and we have to look back on it with, okay, it was a terrible experience in my life, no matter how the actual relationship was. I don’t know that ending things necessarily means that the whole thing was bad. It just meant it wasn’t working anymore. And that’s okay. I have been seeing more willingness to talk like that and think of breakups like that, because I feel like for a while it was very just like, well, if you break up, then it’s over and that person was bad and your relationship was bad. That’s such a boring binary way to think about relationships and what we are to people.

Ro: Yeah. It feels like a very straight culture thing too, at least in my experience, I feel like my straight friends are the ones who are more likely to say, “Well, fuck that person, that person sucks if I end a relationship with someone.” Whereas queer people in my life are the ones who are more likely to maintain friendships with exes, or at least just see our exes in a holistic way.

Christina: Yeah. I suppose, I will say some of my straight friends I have been like, “Well, yeah. You got to say fuck that person and move on.”

Drew: Yeah. I guess, I think it’s so interesting. The idea that you meet someone, be it on a dating app or through a friend or whatever, and then you spend three years with them, share a life with them, share a space with them. That’s such a success to me. That is an incredible, remarkable thing that could happen. But I guess that’s because I’m not thinking about my life in a way where my end goal is — not that I don’t want to get married or I’m not open to getting married — but I don’t see my life in this linear sort of heteronormative, like getting married is this step of adulthood, or this thing that I’m looking for. And then once I’ve found it, I’m good to go. That’s not how I approach dating or am approaching my life. Whereas I guess if you are approaching your life for what you want is one partner for forever, then, yeah. I guess breakups feel like more of a failure.

Christina: I think that’s probably true for people, that if you’re on one linear path to marriage, then every breakup is not a success, because you didn’t end up getting married, unless you get married to every person and then break up with them, but that seems very chaotic to me.

Drew: I would love to be divorced. I shouldn’t say that because I’m sure for people who are actually divorced… I do feel like, I don’t know, maybe it’s a queer thing, but when I find out that people are divorced, I just feel like, “Oh, you’ve lived a whole life, haven’t you,” as opposed to, I think maybe in straight culture where it’s like, “Oh, well, you failed.” I’m like, “Oh, good for you. You had a relationship that mattered, theoretically.”

Christina: Yeah.

Ro: Yeah. I mean, you also made a choice to enter into a financial contract with a partner and then end it in a way that may have been really difficult and messy. So I think that’s the extra layer that marriage adds to relationships in addition to all of those social cultural pressures.

Drew: For sure.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, kids, a marriage is a business proposal. So that’s what we have to say here at this podcast.

Drew: Yeah. I want to talk about knowing when to break up, because this is something that I think about a lot. I think maybe… I was trying to decide how personal to get, which is hilarious if you know what the previous episodes of the show have been. I guess, I think that my most recent serious relationship, like my ex, I know that she thinks that it was pretty sudden. I think that’s just so interesting because I believe in working on relationships and I believe in putting the time in it, that every relationship has problems, especially if you spend a lot of time with someone, like giving it a chance to work. But I also, because I can view a three-year long relationship that ends as a success, I don’t understand making it a four-year long relationship that wasn’t a success? I don’t understand the desire to elongate things past the point where it feels like they just aren’t working.

Christina: Yeah. I definitely feel the same way. I wonder if it’s that people are not necessarily great at knowing when it is beyond workable help. When that feeling feels like, okay, we could do some work here, but at the end of the day what would that really accomplish? Would it just be better to separate and go our separate ways, than try to do this and maybe poison the well of our friendship going forward or what our relationship meant before? I feel like that, people are more hesitant to let go. I think people are probably just scared of being alone in a big way.

Ro: Yeah. I think ending relationships feels like a bigger deal in some ways in the queer community, because for us, our partners are more likely to become our chosen family. Whereas for straight folks who might have closer connections to blood family, et cetera, that’s less of a thing. I mean, especially for queer women and trans folks who are less likely to have disposable income, a lot of us, we move in together. We make all of those choices where we fully integrate our lives financially and socially. And so then the idea of ending something like that, it doesn’t just mean ending a relationship. It means breaking up your whole social circle, it means finding a place to live when maybe you can’t afford to live on your own. It’s a mess and a disaster. I get why people don’t do it soon enough.

Christina: Yeah. It’s like, okay, so I’m going to break up with this person, but actually breaking up with this person means entirely reorienting my life. That’s a bigger swallow. I get that. I totally feel that.

Drew: I think that’s probably why my two major breakups have happened when we were in a phase of long distance. It was like, we sort of already started the shift in our lives being separate and not to say that… I think in both situations we wanted the relationship to work, but I do think in retrospect, and maybe this is something I will take responsibility for, but just in that, maybe I manifest that a little bit? Maybe there’s part of me that starts to create that separation, which I guess if any future people I’m dating are listening to this and they’re like, “Oh, Drew’s moving away for a job. So I guess our relationship’s over.” But it just like — look, I don’t have a huge sample size, but that is what my experience has been. It still was super difficult, but the difference of the difficulty of like, okay, we’re permanently moving away from each other, versus if we… because I was living with my former partner and if we had broken up while sharing that space, that would’ve been a much more challenging experience.

Christina: Yeah. My last serious breakup was right before my ex moved. And we knew she was moving — that was a thing, that’s part of the narrative. We kind of talked about how we weren’t particularly interested in doing long distance. So those last few months were kind of just like, “So we’re just going to call this at some point?” This is weird, just kind of living in this knowledge that this will end at some point. And then I decided that that point was Halloween. I can’t express to you enough how much of a bad idea it is to break up on Halloween, sitting on your stoop at 6:00 PM, because children will be trick-or-treating, and they will be confused that you have no candy to give them, but instead lesbian sadness. They will be very perplexed.

Drew: It’s a trick! Trick or treat, you know?

Christina: It was certainly a trick. Let me tell you what, we could have literally gone anywhere else, just not that one space would have been fine.

Drew: Yeah. Ro, do you have any bad breakup stories that you feel comfortable sharing?

Ro: I think overall, so right now my girlfriend and I say R and r when we’re talking about relationships. So when I’m saying R, I’m talking about the relationships that have been significant, sort of maybe long-term, but maybe just very important, like we were “a thing.” And then r is the casual kind of relationships. So of the Rs of mine that have ended, I absolutely believe that each of them could have and should have ended sooner. I think I fell into that trap that I was talking about earlier of, “Well, ending this means completely reorienting my life, and I don’t really feel prepared to do that right now.” I don’t think I had that thought consciously. This was the thing that I realized after the fact every single time.

Christina: Yeah. That’s one of those things that you’re like, loved if that learning had come in a little quicker.

Ro: Yeah. I mean, I get really invested in my relationships. I love caring for other people, whether those are partners or friends. And the idea of ending something like that has felt really scary for me. But the times when I have made the choice to end those relationships or when that choice was made for me, I have felt great about it every single time, which feels weird to say. Of course, I’ve been sad, but I’ve also had this part of me that has felt absolutely elated after every breakup of like, oh, I’m free to make this other choice with my life.

Christina: Yeah. I think that the weird thing about breakups, especially when you think about all the things that people can compromise in relationships and how you can have conversations, but it’s like, one person wants to break up, that’s the end of the relationship. There’s no halfway, there’s no like, oh, can we compromise? Can you meet me halfway on this one? It’s like, nope, that’s actually one thing a person gets to kind of unilaterally decide for your relationship if it’s over.

Drew: Yeah. And if your partner is the person who you go to and rely on when things are tough, it can be really challenging. I think this is a cliche, queer breakup of using the person who broke your heart as emotional support and how that does not really work. But I think it’s pretty natural when you have previously been relying on them, and it can be one of the challenges where you feel sad. And then you’re like, well, I want to call this person to talk about how I feel sad. And it’s like, that’s the exact person you should not call. That can be a little bit of a challenge. I’m very good at — again, this, I think, gets me into a little bit of trouble, that I’m very good at compartmentalizing. I’m not good at saying “compartmentalize,” but I’m going at doing it, in the sense that if I say to myself it is not healthy for me to check this person’s Instagram, I will meet them and I will not check their Instagram. I really can make myself do that. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have a lot of feelings about it. I think this is something that I’ve had a hard time communicating sometimes to people is like, I can feel a lot and I can feel really sad and I can feel a real loss and someone can mean a lot to me. But if I’ve made the decision in my brain that what we need is to not be together or if I’ve decided that we need a space or if I’ve decided, whatever, I can keep those commitments to myself and hold those boundaries pretty strictly.

Christina: That’s because you got a lot of earth sign up in that chart maybe. That’s what that is, because I am the exact same way. I’m like, “No, I’ve made the decision and now that’s over. We’re done with that. We are moving away from that space.”

Drew: Yeah. Ro, what’s your chart? I don’t remember.

Ro: I am an Aries Sun and a Sagittarius Moon and a Scorpio Rising.

Drew: Wow. That’s fun.

Christina: Wow. That is a chaotic chart. I really enjoy that. I like that a lot. That’s some fun energy.

Ro: It’s really like, if you look at my whole chart, it’s quite balanced. It’s kind of all over the place, which I really appreciate about myself, because I think there are definitely parts of me that are like big Aries vibes, but I have many friendships with other Aries people, and have had relationships with other Aries people, or I was like, “Oh, God, too much Aries.” So I’m glad that that’s not across the board my deal.

Christina: Yeah. That’s why we don’t do any sunshine shaming on this podcast because we love a full chart. We need to understand every facet of a person.

Ro: I’m a whole person. I’m not just an Aires.

Christina: We are here respecting and loving that person that you are.

Ro: Thank you very much.

Christina: Anytime.

Ro: Do you want to try to answer the question of when you know it’s time to break up? Because I feel like that’s a question that we get very often at Autostraddle in our advice box. I feel like I’m constantly telling people to break up, and I feel like such a downer when I do it, but I think it’s the right advice.

Drew: Yeah. Okay, there are things to consider. If you have spent 10 years with someone and you share a life and all those things we talked about, financially, et cetera, you’re entangled with them and you’re like, we’re having problems, should we break up? Maybe there are reasons not to if it’s a first thought that you’re having. But it’s wild to me, the amount of times we get questions where they’re like, “I love my girlfriends so much. We’ve been together for two months. They treat me like absolute shit, should we break up?” And it’s like, “Yes, you should break up!” I know that you love this person, but you don’t really know that. I mean, you do, but you know them in this very certain way. And also you could walk away so easily right now. All those other things we were talking about aren’t happening. I mean, I would even say to someone who’s been married for 10 years, if you’ve been questioning, should we break up for a good chunk of time, yeah. I just think that that’s one of those questions — it’s like, “Am I gay?” It’s like, not a lot of people who are straight are walking around being like, “Am I gay? Am I gay? Am I gay? Am I gay?” So I think similarly it’s like, “Should we break up? Should we break up? Should we break up? Should we break up?” Yes.

Christina:
Yeah. I think that’s probably why we have such a high hit rate of saying, “Yes, you should break up,” because every time someone writes in asking should they break up, I’m like, “Well, you took the time to write this and ask somebody.” I’m like, “Yeah, you probably should if that’s where your head is at, then my gut says it’s probably time for you to break up, right now.”

Drew: But it’s also, I think the one thing that complicates it for me is that I know that I have never been in a relationship where I’ve talked about breaking up with the person throughout the… But I’ve witnessed that in friends who have good relationships where it’s just the way that they function more is a little bit more volatile and has a little bit more conflict. I’m really hesitant to get in a relationship, and maybe it’s an earth sign thing, but I’m very cautious about entangling my life in that way. And not just financially, but even in the sense of associating with someone. And then the way of introducing someone to my friends, and being like, this is someone who I care about and I want to bring them into your life. I just can be pretty hesitant about that. And so if I’m with someone, usually we’re compatible in a way where… I also don’t want a lot of conflict in my relationship, because then I just would be single. And so I want conflict in my flirtations. That’s really fun. But if I want to share a space with someone, I’m like, I don’t want — if we get into fight, it should not go to, so are we going to break up? Anytime that I’ve gotten into a fight with a partner, the assumption is we’re going to talk through it, we’re going to work through it. My definition of a fight in these circumstances is I think some people’s definition of a discussion. I don’t really like fight with my partners. And so I’m not the kind of person who would be in this head space of, “Should we break up? Should we not break up?” Because when I get in that head space, I do it. Yeah. I mean, if I have a passing thought, not necessarily if it’s like, oh, I am sort of annoyed at this person, maybe we were not good together. I’ve had those thoughts obviously, and then stayed in relationships. But even then, usually six months later or something, those passing thoughts are starting to come back more and I realized that that was sort of a sign of things to come. I don’t think you have to walk away the second you have a doubt, but I don’t know.

Christina: It’s a little file for later, put it on the record, the record of your mind, some might say.

Ro: Yeah. I think a lot of us have those record scratch moments where you identify a difference in values with your partner, whether it’s a difference in values that has always existed, or suddenly your partner has changed their values or desires. I think those moments can be pretty like make-or-break depending on how important that value is to you. I think those are really important to pay attention to when you’re trying to figure out, do I want to stay with this person or do I not? I mean, I’ve even told people before and have myself made a list of all of my values. I’ve made a list of the things that are important to a person I’m dating to determine, is there compatibility here? Or is this just never going to work down the line for whatever reason?

Christina: Yeah. I think there’s the values aspect of it and then there’s that moment where you’re having a conversation or you’re having a fight and you’re like, we are talking about two wildly different experiences and I don’t know that we’re ever actually going to be able to get on the same page with how you see me in this space or how you think that I react to things, or what you think my emotional shortcomings are, or too much — those kinds of moments where you’re like, “Oh, maybe this person actually doesn’t see or understand who I am.” That can be very troubling. It’s something that I think that people are better at talking themselves out of, that mattering, as opposed to being like, oh, well, this person’s values don’t line up with mine. So we simply won’t be dating anymore. It’s like, if someone can’t understand you emotionally, despite you being very clear about it. That’s also really going to matter down the line.

Drew: Yeah. I also think circumstance and timing is huge. I think it’s going to be really interesting as things open up post-pandemic or this fluid in-between space of pandemic and post-pandemic, where I think that it’s perfectly lovely if you met someone during the pandemic and are dating them. I mean, I sort of am. So it’s like, that’s fine, but I do think that it’s going to be interesting and we’re all going to have to adjust to this idea of now that what our day-to-day lives look like is different, some relationships will work better and some I think will not work at all. We’re just going to have to be prepared for that and be ready to adjust to that. I mean, I know that for me in my last relationship, I like to be sort of self-deprecating and take responsibility in the way that it’s important to take responsibility. But I also think in this joking about like, oh, it was because we were long distance and I was running away and whatever. And it’s like, yeah. But also what it was is that our circumstances just changed. When I was working a job that took up all my time, our relationship didn’t really work, as opposed to when I was soon-to-be college grad, post-college grad, sort of floaty space where I was very available and we were very sort of intertwined, our relationship really worked. That was great. Because that’s where I was at in that period of time, and that was lovely. But because I know myself and I know that I’m an ambitious person and that more of my life is going to be spent very busy with work stuff and very consumed with all these other things than it is going to be in that sort of floaty, in-between, post-college space. I was like, “Oh, this relationship isn’t going to work moving forward.” That is no judgment on the way that it worked when circumstances were different, but just am making the call that like, yeah. If I’m looking at this and my choices are this relationship works when I’m behaving this way, when I’m leading this kind of life and I’m looking at my next year, or my next 10 years, the rest of my life, and it’s looking a lot more like this other circumstance that doesn’t seem to work, then it just sort of became clear and becomes clear to me that it was just time.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s true. I totally function similarly thought wise, but I do think that is circumstance breakups. People have a really hard time conceptualizing that your relationship could, for the most part, still be fine. What you feel about that person could not change, but something as dumb as a circumstance could just really get in your way. That’s not great, but it is a very valid reason for a breakup. I just find my friends who have gone through breakups like that, those are the ones that they are so resistant to breaking up, because they’re like, “No, this one thing shouldn’t be the thing that takes us down.” I get that. I get wanting to feel that way, but unfortch, circumstances are kind of the whole thing.

Drew: Yeah. I think it would be helpful if people realized that oftentimes circumstance breakups aren’t circumstance breakups, they’re priority breakups, people are making decisions about what — I don’t think you should not take a job in order to stay closer to your partner or whatever, but some people would make that decision. And also some relationships could do perfectly fine long distance, and they wouldn’t need to break up because of that circumstances change. And if the circumstance is more connected to like, oh, I don’t know. It’s hard sometimes to be in a relationship when a lot of tragedy has happened or other challenges. It’s like, okay, but that again isn’t a circumstance, that’s revealing that this relationship wasn’t meant to continue through this aspect of life that is going to happen and is going to be part of life.

Ro: Yeah. I don’t know — what made me think of this was when you were talking about people being resistant to a circumstance breakup, it’s making me think about all of these long drawn out breakups that I’ve encountered, either in my own life or that I’ve seen in friends lives or that I’ve seen in the Autostraddle advice box. This thing happens in queer communities that I wonder if we could talk about, where I’ve noticed a lot of monogamous queer folks in monogamous relationships, opening up their relationship rather than breaking up. I think that is a huge mistake. I know this because I have done it.

Christina: Okay. We love the wisdom of experience.

Ro: I mean, I certainly don’t think it’s always a bad thing to open up a monogamous relationship. I think that’s awesome when both partners are on board, but I’m seeing it happen a lot of times when really there are other issues that need to get addressed and the assumption, because we’re queer and we’re sexually free is, “Well, let’s just fuck some other people and it’s going to be great,” and no, it’s not going to be great. It’s really not, unless your relationship is super solid.

Christina: Yeah. I definitely see a lot of that. People who have really never identified as being interested in being open or being poly are like, “Yeah, no, what’s going to happen is we’re going to be open and it’s going to be awesome.” Usually in my experience, there has been one partner who is very interested in this idea and another who is totally resistant, and I’m always like, that is a terrible combination of feelings and ways to go into this. And yeah, it never works, because even in an open relationship, that’s always when I’m like, “How did that person manage to cheat on you in an open relationship?” You had all of these rules and all of these things and this person still decided to not do that, to not follow those rules and managed to cheat in an open relationship? Which says to me, should have just broken up from the jump, probably.

Ro: Yep. I have been on the other end of that of being “cheated on” in an open relationship. It’s brutal when you’ve laid all of that groundwork. Unlike in a monogamous situation, unless you are a very good communicator, usually queer person who talks about what monogamy means to you, usually cheating is pretty like cut and dry. But when you’re in an open situation, you’ve established exactly what the boundaries are. And then when those get violated, it just cuts extra deep.

Drew: Yeah. I love to talk about approaches to the breakup itself. So far we’ve covered don’t do it on Halloween, sitting on the stoop at 6:00 PM.

Christina: Just do it inside if you want to do it on Halloween. You could just go right inside your little home, perfect place.

Drew: But you’re still probably going to get some doorbells. So I would maybe make a blanket. I mean, if you have to do it on Halloween. I mean, I would say holidays in general maybe, but also what I think is so terrible though is the like, oh, I’ll wait to do it after the holiday. No, do it beforehand. It’s better that… Also, holidays are… Well, obviously every circumstance is different, but in my head I’m like, even if my birthday is next week, break up with me beforehand because do you know what will ruin my birthday? Is my partner being there miserable, and it’s clear that we’re having problems. Do you know what could be a slightly more fun birthday? Out partying with my friends a week after a breakup feeling chaotic. So please just… I really am a firm believer of, as we’ve already said a million times, break up when you want to. Don’t be like, well, I have to wait till dah, dah, dah. There are exceptions, but that’s my proverbial.

Christina: It’s a slippery slope to start doing that, “Well, not today because —” then it’s suddenly like, no, you can’t be doing that.

Drew: Yeah. But I also bring this up because — I could still continue to use my own life and failures — I do think that something that I did wrong in my last serious relationship was, I didn’t want to break up, but I wasn’t honest about… It was one of those things where I was like, “Oh, we’re going to be open.” I think I could probably tell that I was more enthusiastic about that than my partner, and obviously if she had said, “No, I don’t want to.” I wouldn’t have. But I knew her well enough at that point to understand that what I was wanting and what she was wanting were probably a little bit different. I also understood that I just wasn’t being as good of a girlfriend as I had throughout. It’s funny because I never even hooked up with anyone else while we were together, but even just the way we were talking about it and whatever. I also think on the flip side of that, she was treating me differently in a way that was pretty negative. I think I was in denial about those things, and also that the relationship was coming to a close. So I just was like, well, I feel trapped and I feel like I’m being treated poorly. So I’m just going to pull away, which there’s the difference between, I can say, oh, well, every time I know that I want to break up, I do it. And it’s like, yeah. But I’m very good at lying to myself. I’m not good at lying to other people, but I’m very good at lying to myself. Part of that is that extended period of time where I just was pulling away and that’s not — I wasn’t checking in. I think that’s an important thing to do. And so I think part of the breakup maybe feeling sudden was that it was, even though it wasn’t sudden emotionally, that it was sudden in the sense that the minute that that was suggested as a possibility, I was like, “Oh, yeah. This is what we should do.”

Christina: That’s the one I want. I pick that one.

Drew: And then she was like, “Wait, no, that wasn’t…” I was like, “No, no, no, babe, that’s the one.” I heard the words out loud. I thought about it as a reality and I’m sobbing right now, but also that is absolutely the only option. I probably should have figured that out outside of that conversation on my own with some self-reflection earlier.

Christina: And then bring that to the table in a…

Drew: Yeah. I mean, look, relationships are so hard and breakups are so hard, and we’re all going to make mistakes and can not communicate perfectly 100% of the time and not know how we feel or not know how our partners feel all the time. But I do think for myself, I’m constantly trying to work towards a space of realizing that for me, the challenge of good communication is, on a large part communication with myself, that I think I’m pretty good at communicating with others, except for the fact that if I’m not communicating with myself I can’t communicate well with others, and acknowledging that is a real hindrance than something that I’m working on.

Christina: Ro, what’s your recipe for a perfect breakup? What do you need? What do you put into that little stew to create that?

Ro: I think when one is initiating a breakup, it is very important to say the actual words, “I want to break up” or “I want to end this relationship,” or something super clear. Because I think sometimes when we’re trying to be kind and considerate, we’re a little loosey-goosey with our language. And then the person we’re trying to break up with ends up having no idea what’s happened, they think you’re still together. Just say the words, it’s going to suck, but I think that clarity is super important, and being honest about your reasons as to why the relationship needs to end. I think that’s another area where we’re trying to be kind, we’re not honest about what those reasons are, and then the other person is left feeling really confused. I mean, obviously I think if someone is threatening your safety, you don’t owe them any reasons, you don’t know them any explanation, just get the hell out of there, but with someone that you do feel safe with but the relationship isn’t working anymore, a clear “we’re breaking up” and a clear reason or list of reasons is super important.

Christina: Yeah. The clear “we’re breaking up” really has got to be said. That is definitely a thing I have seen happen. Just like, oh, wait, oh, no, no, no. That’s a break up. Got to say those words out loud.

Ro: And then just setting up your expectations for what your relationship to each other will be like, post breakup is really important. Whether that happens in the context of the actual breakup conversation, or maybe that happens later. But I think that’s really important to establish too, because — and this is another queer community thing. We love to try to be friends with our exes, and sometimes that’s totally possible and beautiful and great. Sometimes that doesn’t work for us. And so I think we need to be really honest with ourselves and with each other about what friendship with exes looks like, and whether or not that’s something that serves us.

Christina: Yeah. I do think there’s such a difference. I have this conversation with a lot of my queer friends about, oh, we’re still friends. Okay, are you just not actively mad at one another? You’re not friends. There’s a difference between I’ve burned this bridge, leaving this relationship or this bridge has just kind of got old and doesn’t really work that well, but it’s still open if you need to use it. We don’t have to be the best of friends maybe, but we can still be in community. We can still be in contact. I think there is a little bit more space within those kinds of friends with exes spaces than many people tend to think that there are.

Drew: Yeah. Also, I think it’s tricky in establishing that sometimes, of being like … Or maybe I think what’s important is to communicate the trickiness in the sense that if you don’t know, I think it is okay to say I maybe someday want to be friends, but I just in this space right now don’t know if that’s what I want. Communicating that, I think, is okay because I think sometimes when emotions are high, you don’t really have an answer. Similarly, Ro, I’m curious if you have any thoughts on, I agree that it can be really helpful to give concrete reasons and to be really clear and to not do the thing where you’re trying to be nice. So you lie or you say whatever.

Drew: But obviously there is a balance, there is some tact involved or there is some… So I’m just curious in your experience or just generally what you suggest as far as trying to be clear while also, I don’t know, if you’re not going to be dating the person, your problems aren’t as important as if you were continuing to date the person. So, rehashing them more or making someone feel bad. I don’t know. I think I really struggle with this because I think I have a bit of a people-pleaser streak in me. And so I think it’s sometimes hard for me to communicate those reasons.

Ro: Yeah. I think it’s important to include with your “these are the reasons why we’re breaking up” list. These are the things that helped me grow that I appreciated about our relationship. I think that’s important to acknowledge, but I think actually, I don’t even know if I’m answering your question. Your question is how to be clear about those reasons?

Drew: More like how do you find the balance between when should something be said versus when is it like… I just think about in break up mode, especially when you’re the one breaking up with someone and if they’re still in love with you and to list off the things that are wrong about them, the idea of being like, oh, well, I want to break up because I feel like you’re this. I mean, maybe it’s like an I-statement situation, or it’s better to be like “I feel this” instead of being like, “You are this way, so fuck you.”

Christina: Yeah. I think it should be less of like an airing of grievances, more of like “here are the reasons in which this does not work for me,” and kind of focus it that way instead of “the way you chew burritos makes me want to jump off a bridge.” I think there’s less of that energy.

Ro: Yeah, absolutely. I-statements are the key. And you are right, it should be the things that are not working for you. Specifically, I think acknowledging patterns is really important and acknowledging them from an I-statement place. So instead of saying, “You always forget to text me back and that’s why we’re breaking up,” you can say, “I have noticed a pattern where you don’t text me back. Communication is really important to me. I’ve talked to you about it several times. And so this is not going to work.” That’s a terrible reason to break up with someone, just “you don’t text back on time.”

Drew: No, but communication styles being different is a reasonable thing. I mean, I do think that’s a good example in the sense that something that could totally work for someone else doesn’t work for you. I mean, that’s how I felt. Every R relationship that I’ve been in, I feel really positively about all those people and I really only wish them the best regardless of how close or not close we are in each other’s lives or whatever, I really feel like they are great people and there are people out there who are super well-suited for them and it just wasn’t me. And so when I think about the problems in those relationships, so much of it’s about compatibility. So much of it’s like, oh, well, we just weren’t working together. It’s not. And not to say that again, there are obviously relationships where someone is particularly treating the other person poorly or whatever, but I think a lot of times it’s just we are not working. We are bringing out the worst in each other and we could find other people who we’d have really great relationships with. And so it doesn’t have to be like a judgment of your desirability or of your ability to be in a relationship. It’s just that for those individual people, they are not a compatible couple or group.

Christina: Yeah. I think that tracks. I think it’s like finding the thing that feels like the petty grievance and kind of tracing it back to its source of like, what is it — the not-texting is actually about our communication style, or the way that you don’t listen is also about how I feel valued, those kinds of things. I think that’s the important… chase that back to the source so you can come up with a good I-statement of feeling.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Did we just crush breakups?

Drew: I think we just solved breakups. So you’re all ready to go break up, have fun!

Christina: Okay. Let’s go break up.

Drew: Okay. Well, then we’re going to move to our next segment, which is Crush Corner, where we say who we’re crushing on this week. Ro, do you want to go first?

Ro: Yes. I have a controversial crush.

Drew: Ohhh!

Christina: Oh, we love that.

Ro: I’m crushing on Demi Lovato right now.

Drew: I approve.

Christina: What’s the controversy?

Ro: The controversy, did you read about that frozen yogurt stuff that happened?

Christina: Yeah. That’s just because celebrities shouldn’t speak out loud a lot of the time, is the problem with that. She has a lot of feelings and not necessarily the knowledge to know how to communicate those feelings out to the world. I’ve been there.

Ro: Yeah. I mean, I understand as someone who is also in eating disorder recovery like Demi Lovato, I understand where those feelings came from. They were really not well executed. So this is why they’re my controversial crush. I mean, I’m crushing on Demi Lovato, mostly because of the suits, they’ve been rocking these amazing suits. They have an incredible haircut. I’ve always been a fan and I’m just stoked on Demi.

Drew: I love that.

Christina: I have been a person who has, since “Cool for the Summer” came out, said that “Cool for the Summer” was the song of the summer every single year. So they have given me genuinely the summer anthem of my late twenties into my early thirties. I thank them for that.

Ro: Beautiful.

Drew: And I thank them for Glee. So we all have our—

Christina: Wow. To pull a late season Glee, wow.

Drew: Yeah. The only good thing about… I mean, really just—

Christina: That’s really true. Oh, you don’t think it was Sarah Jessica Parker, “Let’s Have a Kiki?”

Drew: Oh, God, the fact that that’s not even — we don’t need to get into it. It’s only season four. There’s two more. It’s a nightmare. Anyways, Christina, who’s your crush for the week?

Christina: I’m going with Janelle Monáe, because Janelle Monáe, whenever she decides to post on Instagram, it literally just gives me a heart attack and stops me from functioning throughout the rest of the day. It’s not consistent, it’s just whenever she feels like it. Today there was just like a very sexual post with like a, put this on your mood board. I was like, “Okay. That’s not my life, but I want it. I will. Thank you, Janelle. And talk about a person who rocks suits, like, go the hell off. So Janelle Monáe is hot. Hot take.

Drew: Did you see her live, like, where the cigar was from? Like that, did you see it?

Christina: Yes, I did. It really rocked kind of my reality perceptions.

Drew: Okay. Just wanted to make sure. Cool.

Christina: Who are you crushing on this week?

Drew: Okay. So we have our first in a Wait, Is This A Date history, because my crush this week is Ro, because I rewatched Princess Cyd this week, and I want to talk about Princess Cyd because I love it so much, which Ro knows that I love it so much. I rewatched it with the person who I’m virtually dating, and the whole time just was freaking out and just was like, it’s that thing where watching a movie with someone and being like, this is the best, isn’t this amazing? Isn’t this a good scene? Just constantly turning to the person. That was my energy. I feel like that movie is like if you took the two halves of myself and made them like aunt and niece and then had them gently argue for 90 minutes. So I really love the movie, and Ro’s great in it and it’s… I think most people have seen it, but if you haven’t seen it, you should see it.

Christina: I fully co-sign.

Drew: Yeah. It’s very, very good.

Christina: I really love this late-stage chaos that Drew decided to bring in here at this moment. I think that was good, because you know what there is in Drews’ chart? Sagittarius.

Drew: Yes. There is. Sag Venus!

Ro: I believe that. I mean, it’s appropriate that you have brought it up because I broke up with acting somewhat recently, which was a great choice for me, but I loved making Princess Cyd. I’m so proud of it. I love that it’s in the world, and I love that you love it, Drew.

Drew: Thank you. Thanks for being a part of it and making it exist and making it so good. Okay. So, do you want to let people know where they can find you?

Ro: Oh sure. You can find me at Autostraddle by searching for Ro White, you can find my articles there. And you can find me on Twitter @munrowhite, that’s M-U-N-R-O White. And then I don’t know if you feel like popping on over to Instagram, you can find me at @internationalmisterpleather. Mr. is all spelled out.

Drew: Perfect.

Christina: Incredible.

Drew: And so then the last thing that we do like because we really value clarity here, we really like to be just up front and—

Christina: Open and honest.

Drew: Yeah, and change the culture among queer people. And so we like to ask at the end of every session, just a little check-in, was this a date?

Christina: Right now, were we just on a date? I mean, we could have been, we just wanted to ask.

Ro: Are you asking me?

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ro: I mean, I’m not really dressed for a date.

Christina: Okay. That’s a really beautiful answer.

Drew: That’s my favorite answer so far.

Christina: That one’s really good actually.

Ro: Yeah. I am not appropriately dressed. Also, my air conditioning unit has been off for this recording, so I’m extremely sweaty. But I guess a date can be really sweaty. So, I honestly don’t know.

Drew: Sometimes you don’t, but I love that answer.

Christina: A lot of the times we’re learning we don’t know. Look, I believe we’re going to get there one day.

Drew: I think what’s great is that we’ve decided to end each of our podcast episodes by making our guests uncomfortable. I think it’s a really beautiful—

Christina: I think it’s so brave.

Drew: Yeah, I think so. Well, thank you so much for being here with us and thank you everyone for listening. Now, go break up with your person. And if you said, “No, I don’t want to.” Great, then you shouldn’t. That’s the trick.

Christina: Yeah. Perfect.

Drew: If you said, “I don’t know, maybe I should.” Then—

Christina: You should. Unfortunately you should.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: I’m ready to have a new ex. I mean, I’m also ready to have a new partner, and I don’t need that to end right away. But I am also ready for the future, however long it is in the future, when I’m like, “Oh, my ex,” and I’m talking about a different person. I just get so bored when I have the same ex. I do sort of feel like after a certain point, you do only have sort of one ex, everyone else is just like someone you once dated. At least for me, I only have room for one person to occupy the role of “my ex,” you know?

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 105: Best Sex Ever

Our episode topic this week is Best Sex Ever so we are talking about… the best sex we’ve ever had! We’re joined by Autostraddle writer, poet, and journalist Dani Janae as we get into some steamy anecdotes followed by an in-depth discussion about what makes good sex good. And we spend a lot of time on my sexual hang ups that I may or may not have actually done a lot of work on this summer!

Come for the lesbian movie-themed game, stay for the coming.

SHOW NOTES

+ The 200 Best Lesbian+ Movies list that Christina pulled the game from.

+ If you haven’t read Dani’s Anatomy of a Mango series you really must.

+ This is the essay I wrote about the person I talk about on the episode. It’s only been two years but so much has changed!

+ The summer has passed and we still stan Olivia Rodrigo. Watch the “Brutal” music video.

Dani: The cat and the dog were in the room and there was cat and dog hair everywhere. And so, I was definitely having an allergic reaction while we were having sex. But the orgasm was like chef’s kiss. It was the perfect, perfect experience physically.

Christina: I wonder if it’s something about the hives that really added a little je ne sais quoi to that orgasmic experience.

Theme song plays

Drew: Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast all about, you guessed it, dating.

Drew: Yay! I love dating. I’m Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle, and a filmmaker, and just general trans gay person around the internet and… I was going to say world, but it’s really more like Los Angeles and New York.

Christina: I love this globe trotting gay personality you’re taking on right here in 2021.

Drew: I want that. Yeah, it’s for the future.

Christina: Yeah. I am your other host, Christina Tucker, also a writer for Autostraddle, deranged loud gay on the internet. Just kind of out here, writing, being gay, doing what we can every minute to try to work through this life that we’re living.

Drew: You’re really doing it. You’re really working through that life.

Christina: Frankly, it’s all I can do. That’s all I have, it’s the only option.

Drew: I really respect the attempt.

Christina: The attempt to live?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Actually, really brave of me to even attempt it. You’re not wrong, you are not wrong. Would you be interested in playing a little game today, Drew?

Drew: Oh my God, I’m so excited. Can’t wait to see what you have for me.

Christina: I’m so glad you said that because you absolutely have to say yes, because that’s part of this deal that we’ve created here. So you might be familiar with the fact that on autostraddle.com, the website, we have a list of 200 lesbian movies.

Drew: I am aware of it. I may have written it.

Christina: You may have. What I have done is pull a selection of 10 of those films. I’ve kept them to the top 50. I’m going to give you the plot keywords as decided by users on IMDb and you are going to have to guess what movie it is.

Drew: Okay. I just want the listeners, wherever you are, to know that I am not going to pull up the list. I think that’s right, am I assuming that’s correct in how I should be respecting this game?

Christina: I think that’s very respectful and I think that’s fair. I also kind of trust that this is going be something that comes to mind pretty easy for you, I didn’t go too left.

Drew: I have a terrible memory, but yes, I’m going to try to set people up for low expectations.

Christina: Fair enough.

Drew: So if I do really well, it’s like kind of blow them away, and if I don’t do well, they’ll be like, “Well, she mentioned…” Anyways, continue. Let’s start this.

Christina: Let’s start. I will start with pretty general ones and I will get more specific as we go, because some of them are literally just what the movie is in two words. So we’re going to try to start with a wider experience here.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: Our first film: drugs is the first plot word. Manhattan, New York City is the second. Hate crime is the third.

Drew: Okay. It’s All Over Me.

Christina: Yes, it is! See, I knew you would be able to do this.

Drew: Great.

Christina: I absolutely knew you’d be able to do this.

Drew: Also, I just need to let people know that that is one of the most underrated lesbian movies, and you really need to see it. And Leisha Hailey in that movie has been my phone background for a couple years now. So just a fun little fact there for all of you.

Christina: We love that. All right, movie number two. “Unknown father,” organ donor, cemetery, death of son. Oh, she’s thinking.

Drew: I feel like I should definitely get this based on — wait, unknown father, death of son, organ donor. Oh, All About My Mother.

Christina: There it is, see.

Drew: Another one of my favorites.

Christina: It’s very thrilling to see the things that people decide are a plot keyword that they need to pull from these films. I’m also not reading any of the ones that are just lesbian because that seems kind of like a gimme.

Drew: That’s how I put together a lot of the list because if you look up lesbian movies, what you found was the old Autostraddle list or some lists that aren’t very thorough, so I would actually scroll through lists of the keywords of lesbian, lesbian kissing, these things like girls kissing, these things, in order to find movies where they’re maybe not thought of as a lesbian movie because they’re a little bit more interesting, or just a little bit less direct, and that’s how I found some of the movies that are now on the list, so full circle.

Christina: Listen, IMDb keywords coming in handy for everybody all the time. This one, people went wild on this one. So just going to read some random words to you. Hey, whistling, girl, black sports bra, river, stomping out a cigarette, on the job accident.

Drew: On the job accident? Oh, I thought I had it and then, well—

Christina: Cold, in parentheses, the temperature.

Drew: Because initially I was going to say Foxfire, but then the on the job accident switched me up. On the job accident.

Christina: Do you want some more?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Pickup truck crashes through a fence.

Drew: Is it Miseducation of Cameron Post?

Christina: It is not.

Drew: Because on the job accident would be a really awful way of describing that one of the gay because you’re trying to convert to not gayness, tries to mutilate themselves or does mutilate themselves. That’d be pretty intense, but I didn’t know with the IMDb thinkers. Okay, wait, this is tricking me up.

Christina: Do you want some more from me?

Drew: Truck through a fence. I’m sure it’s something that I’m just not… Yeah, keep going.

Christina: Reference to a school loan. These are so nuts.

Drew: Wait, have you seen this movie?

Christina: I have seen this movie.

Drew: Is it wild that I’m not getting it?

Christina: It’s a little wild. I can give you a year, if you want a year.

Drew: If you give me a year, I’ll definitely get it.

Christina: Okay. 2016 is your year.

Drew: 2016. Okay, tell me what it is.

Christina: It is the film, Certain Women, 2016.

Drew: Oh! Yeah.

Christina: I really thought pickup truck crashes through a fence would get you, but I also just love these people just pulling out nouns and just being like, “male.” Is that what you think?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: That’s a great movie. I need to see that again.

Christina: It is. It’s a great movie.

Drew: Yeah, it’s a really great movie.

Christina: All right, our next film. Kissing while having sex.

Drew: The best kind of both, maybe, you might say.

Christina: Seduction, dude ranch.

Drew: Is it Desert Hearts?

Christina: Yeah. So I was like, “Okay, you got to get that after that one.” The other one I was going to give you was — “nipples” was the really prominently featured. And I was like, “Sure, that is part of that film.”

Drew: God, Desert Hearts. You know how there’s all these annoying people out there trying to be Shane. Sorry, I mean, if you’re trying to be Shane, I accept you. But me, my annoying thing is that I’m trying to be Cay. Cay in that movie is like that is who I think of as the kind of lesbian that I want to be.

Christina: Yeah, that’s true, can confirm. All right, are we ready for our next one?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Year—

Drew: Wait, no, I have one more thing to say about Desert Hearts.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: After the last time I re-watched it over the summer, it sort of sent me into a slight spiral, and I texted this older semi-closeted person who I had sort of started tentatively wanting to date or date whatever, and who had disappeared for a month, and I had given up on because I don’t beg people to date me. But I just was like, “Okay.” I watched Desert Hearts and I was like, “I guess maybe sometimes people have their internalized whatever.” And I texted her and I said, “If we never meet, I think you’re going to regret it.” And we did meet, so that’s what Desert Hearts can do to you.

Christina: Wow, that’s a really powerful endorsement.

Drew: We probably shouldn’t have met. I probably should have just let it be. But anyways, moving on, next movie.

Christina: Our next film, metaphysics, scene during opening credits — what that means, it’s up to you — high school soccer, Chicago, Illinois.

Drew: Oh, Princess Cyd.

Christina: There you go.

Drew: That’s another great movie. I like that I keep being surprised by this list that I had a very strong hand in ranking. It’s not my ranking, but I did have a big say in the ranking and I love it.

Christina: Yeah. I just want to be clear to you and our listeners — again, I picked from the top 50, so these are really good ones. Of the good ones, these are good ones. I know Drew’s going to continually say this is a great movie after every one, but—

Drew: They’re really good movies, you guys should watch them.

Christina: All right. Short skirt with heels.

Drew: Love it.

Christina: Cock blocked, mini skirt with boots.

Drew: I mean, is it Blockers?

Christina: It is not. That would be too easy, I think, for Blockers.

Drew: I don’t remember any miniskirts, but—

Christina: Female rear nudity.

Drew: Okay. Wait a second. Okay, what a second. Okay, cock blocked, mini skirt, female rear nudity.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Break dance.

Drew: Is it Bound?

Christina: It’s not.

Drew: No, I would love a break dancing scene.

Christina: I love a break dancing scene in Bound.

Drew: A break dancing scene.

Christina: I’m going to give you: English woman abroad.

Drew: English woman abroad? This is another one where I feel I definitely should get it.

Christina: I’m going to have to give you a pretty obvious one at some point, so that’s going to help.

Drew: Okay, give me an obvious one.

Christina: Undercover agent.

Drew: Is it D.E.B.S?

Christina: It is not D.E.B.S. It’s adjacent to D.E.B.S., type of film wise. Here’s another one, intrigue.

Drew: Okay, wait, there’s not that many genre movies.

Christina: There aren’t, that is true.

Drew: Undercover agent. Well, maybe they’re using the term, is it The Handmaiden?

Christina: It is not.

Drew: Okay, I didn’t think so. Undercover agent.

Christina: Do you want your year?

Drew: I thought that… Sure.

Christina: Your year is 2017.

Drew: Undercover agent.

Christina: I’m so sorry. You’re going to feel so dumb when I say the title of this one.

Drew: Oh no.

Christina: I’m really sorry about that, but that’s kind of just the way the cookie crumbles.

Drew: Oh, it’s Carol.

Christina: No, it’s not Carol.

Drew: No, it says 2015.

Christina: Yes, I know that. It’s not Carol.

Drew: But there’s an undercover — the guy, that’s where I was thinking. Okay, what is it? Why does it make me feel stupid?

Christina: It’s Atomic Blonde, you dummy.

Drew: Oh, that’s in the top 50?

Christina: It is. I know.

Drew: Oh, okay.

Christina: All right. We’ve got four more, you ready?

Drew: I don’t feel that stupid because that one I… I mean, I think Atomic Blonde is fun, but I don’t think it’s great. That would not be in my personal top 50. I do want the world to know that I know that Carol came out in 2015. My brain hurt. I just want the world to know that. Anyways, continue.

Christina: The world now knows that, the record has been reflected. All righty: restaurant, sense of smell, novelist, reference to a hamburger, reference to Larry King, based on memoir, alcoholic, theft, woman wears eyeglasses, living alone, destroying evidence.

Drew: The reference to Larry King is really—

Christina: It’s a really weird one.

Drew: Reference to Larry King, destroying evidence.

Christina: Cat.

Drew: Oh, is it Can You Ever Forgive Me?

Christina: It is.

Drew: I needed to redeem myself. I was really in a slump there.

Christina: You nailed it. I think you got there, I think you absolutely got there. All right, three more, our top three. I think these ones will be easy for you because I know you.

Drew: Great, okay, well…

Christina: I know, but I’m saying, are you ready?

Drew: Okay, yeah.

Christina: Mental health, drug overdose.

Drew: Is it Foxfire?

Christina: No. Photographer.

Drew: Oh, Higher.

Christina: There we go. Tattoo, girl gang.

Drew: Is this Foxfire?

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Oh, I know Foxfire.

Christina: I was like, “Oh, she’s going to just keep guessing Foxfire until I just give her Foxfire.”

Drew: The secret is that I love Foxfire and I keep wanting to think about Foxfire.

Christina: I mean, whomst among us?

Drew: Angelina Jolie, gosh.

Christina: All right. This one, one of them is—

Drew: This is the last one?

Christina:This is the last one. This is our last one. Church, denial, family relationships.

Drew: Is it Miseducation of Cameron Post?

Christina: It’s not.

Drew: Is it But I’m a Cheerleader?

Christina: It is, yes.

Drew: Yes. Comedic Miseducation of Cameron Post.

Christina: Jokes on jokes. So that was the game I’m calling, How Well Does Drew Know Lesbian Movies???

Drew: I love how good we are coming up with names for our games.

Christina: Yeah, it’s actually mortifying that I even wrote that in the title of a Google Doc, what was I thinking? That doesn’t even look good in my Google Docs.

Drew: I had a great time and I’m really glad that I got to tell all the listeners about all the movies that they should watch. And we’ll put the list in the show notes.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: I would say that the list is now at a place where I think you would get something out of watching all 200 movies. The first version of the list, there was some stuff on there that I was not too pleased with. There still is stuff that I think that I don’t personally but I think that as a whole, there’s a certain quality control after this most recent update that I feel very pleased with and I think they’re all worth seeing.

Christina: Our main topic today is about the best sex ever. And we had to bring in just an absolute fountain of knowledge on this front. We had to bring in the person we knew who would come in and say, “Listen up, I got tales to tell, I got stories, I got thoughts, I got opinions.” And that person is our dear friend, Dani. Would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners at home?

Dani: Hi, my name’s Dani Janae. I am a writer at Autostraddle. I’m a poet. I’m also a journalist now, which is a new title that I’ve added to my resume.

Christina: We love that.

Dani: Yeah, I’m a writer, that’s what I do.

Christina: And here we all are to talk about the best sex ever.

Dani: Yes.

Drew: Yeah. Maybe let’s start with that. Then, do you feel, as a writer, because I know that you write about sex, have written about sex, do you feel like you are more inclined to write about sex that is really, really good or sex that is maybe complicated and not as good?

Christina: That’s a good question.

Dani: That is a really good question. I think that I tend to write about sex that is really, really good.

Drew: We love that.

Dani: Yeah. I tend to write about sex that is stamped in my memory as like, “Oh, that was fucking awesome.” But also there are sex stories that I have written that are also complicated and have layers to them, you know? But I definitely lean toward trying to emphasize the positive sexual experiences.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I guess also those things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Thinking about some of my best sexual experiences, some of them were really good physically and complicated emotionally, or maybe vice versa, but I don’t know, maybe for all of us, I’m curious… Well, first of all, when someone says best sex ever, is there a person or an experience that you immediately think about?

Dani: Yeah, totally.

Christina: Oh, that rocks. See, I was like, I got there and I do think it is true, what I was thinking, but it didn’t come immediately to mind, it wasn’t like, “Oh yeah, I think about that specific sex I had all the time.” But when I was given this prompt by us creating this podcast and thus this episode of this podcast, I was like, “Oh no, that would be it.” I felt part of me was like, “Is it it? If it doesn’t hit that hard, can you really say that that is the best sex ever?” If it’s not immediate, can you just be out here calling any sex you find on the corner, the best sex ever? I don’t know, maybe you can.

Drew: I would love to know what you eventually came up with, but first, Dani, you obviously can get into as many or as few details as you feel comfortable sharing. But I would love for you to give us a little bit of info about that automatic, yes, this was the best sex ever.

Christina: Yes, automatic, impressive.

Dani: Yeah. Well, I have two experiences that I would say are tied for the best sex ever.

Christina: Okay. Brag, absolute, incredible.

Dani: Yeah, so the first one was, unfortunately, with my ex that I do not talk to anymore which is complicated, but I remember it so vividly, it was the second date. First date we had already hooked up and it was fine, but the second date was mind blowing. We had gone to this tea shop that she worked at as a tea specialist, and had tea, and all this sexual tension. And then we went back to her place and just had really intense, passionate sex that was really new for me because I always identifed as a hoe. So I had a lot of sexual partners that I was a top and I wasn’t really letting them touch me, and all that sort of stuff. So this was the first time that I was really being vulnerable in a sexual way with somebody, and letting them pleasure me, so it was just super intense.

Christina: Yeah, that tracks.

Dani: The second one was with the person that I hooked up with after I broke up with that woman. And this person was someone that I liked but I was definitely putting them on the back burner, waiting for somebody else to text me back. And they just totally rocked it out and changed my mind about this other person. And that was one of the sex stories that I tell a lot because it was so wild of like — I went over to their house to hang out and I wasn’t expecting anything, I was just expecting to have a chill time, so I had dressed kind of sloppily and was not really in the mood. And then a bunch of little things happened that were like, “Are we going to fuck now?” And then I finally asked like, “Did you invite me over here to have sex? Are we going to have sex?” And they were like, “Yeah, that’s what I wanted to happen.” And it was like, the cat and the dog were in the room, and there was cat and dog hair everywhere. And so, I was definitely having an allergic reaction while we were having sex, but the orgasm was like chef’s kiss. It was the perfect experience physically.

Christina: I wonder if it’s something about the hives that really added a little je ne sais quoi to that orgasm experience. Just like, “Ooh, I’m a little itchy also.” I wonder how much that factored in.

Dani: Yeah, exactly.

Drew: I love the range of those experiences of one is like, “Oh, we were having tea and there was sexual tension that was building up.” And you’re like, “Yeah, that led to the best sex ever.” And then you have, “There was dog hair everywhere, I was having an allergic reaction, I wasn’t expecting it, and that also was the best sex ever.” I really love that range. Okay, Christina, your turn.

Christina: Yeah. So when I was thinking about it, I realized that it was the first woman who I ever went on a date with. We had gone on four dates, we had a good chemistry but nothing to talk about. Even on our first date, I was like, “Our chemistry is good, but what’s happening here? Don’t know, don’t necessarily care for it.” And then she was busy or had some emotional thing that she wasn’t done with. And I was like, “Fine, whatever.” This was in the summertime. And then it was months later, because it was between the week of Christmas and New Year when I worked in Academia and I would get that week off so I could do truly whatever I wanted. And I ended up at my favorite bar, bartenders’ pouring big old gulps of whiskey. And I was like, “What if I just shoot her a text?” And I just texted her and said, “I’m still mad we never had sex.” And she said, “What are you doing now?” And I said, “Nothing.” And I immediately dipped from my friend in the bar, hopped into an Uber that was in fact not an Uber. Well, I tried to get into a car that was not an Uber, just a woman at a stoplight. She was like, “Ma’am, please stop.”

Drew: “I need to have the best sex in my life!”

Christina: I went back to her apartment in some weird neighborhood in Boston that I had never been in, and was like, “Oh, this is incredible sex, this is incredible sex.” Also, I’m going to die because the next morning I was so hungover, I could not see, and I woke up in Charlestown or somewhere absolutely on the opposite side of the earth from where I lived. But the sex was incredible despite the fact that we still, even in the two seconds of pretense, chit chat conversation, I was like, “We have nothing to talk about, why are we doing this?” I was very clear in my text. “Why are we doing this?” Good sex though? Good for her, hope she’s well. Drew, it’s your turn.

Drew: No, I guess it would be my turn. Yeah. So I was thinking about this and I do think that I can’t answer it any other way, but this person who I met at this concert, and I was already pretty drunk, and it was just this whirlwind of she was from Brazil, and was there with a bunch of Brazilian friends, and they were all speaking Portuguese, and I was just very much like, “I have no idea what’s going on.” And then she was inviting me along with her friends and then said something to her friend… It’s so interesting to… Anyways, okay. I’m just going to tell the story, honestly. I mean, I think I already wrote about this.

Christina: I was going to say you’ve written about this experience.

Drew: I know. I don’t know why I’m feeling weird about it. I think because when I wrote about it, I’ve done a lot of work on myself since 2019 and I’m really proud of that work. So basically what happened was she misgendered me to her friend and I was like, “Oh God, I’m so stupid, this person who was complimenting me.” I thought it was that she was flirting with me, but really she saw me as a flamboyant, she’s like, “Ooh, fun, flamboyant, queer guy.” So I was like, “Oh God.” So I was like, “I’m a woman.” And she was like, “Oh.” And I was like, “I’m a gay woman.” And she was, “Oh, so you’re into girls.” And I was “Yeah.” And she was “Great.” And then she started making out with me.

Christina: Incredible turnaround time.

Drew: I think there was something about the like, “I don’t care.” And she then went on to respect my… she wasn’t misgendering me moving forward, but the idea of like, “I don’t care what gender you are, I just think you’re hot and I want you.” There is something about that that I’m into, and what’s interesting — so then we got into an Uber and I have — someone, on the essay that I wrote this, got mad at me for having sex in the back of an Uber, but I didn’t plan to. I’m not this person generally speaking, but we were just still making out. And her friends were next to us, and I was sitting on her lap because we were all squished into this Uber, and she… So I don’t really know the languages I would use. I would say that usually I’m a top and am very focused on… I’m not stone, I’m still figuring some things out.

Christina: We love that, everyone’s on a journey.

Drew: Yeah. I just usually focus on my partner’s pleasure more than my own. And this is really the only time that that was switched. And she touched my genitalia in a way that to me felt so gender euphoric. I felt I was being fingered and I don’t understand really what she was doing. She just unzipped my pants and whatever, however she was moving her hand, I just felt. I don’t know if it’s because we were in an Uber and I was so not expecting it. I think what can often happen is my dysphoria will be heightened by me thinking, being very conscious, and because I was so not expecting any of this, I just didn’t have a chance to have anything but it feel good. So anyways, I fully had an orgasm in the back of the Uber and then—

Christina: We love to see that, yes.

Drew: I don’t want people to feel bad. I hate the idea that someone would be like, “Oh, poor trans woman who can’t…” I like my sex life, I am trying to figure out how to make it better. But I have cum during sex, but oh, I’ll make myself cum while I’m having sex with someone else because it’s like I can tell they want me to cum. That’s the only time that someone has made me cum.

Christina: Taken the reins and done it.

Drew: And just done something that is — they made me cum. And yeah, it was in the back of Uber. But so we get to this West Hollywood gay bar, and are hooking up, and then we eventually go back to my place and have all sorts of sex. And I guess it’s just so interesting to think about top, bottom dynamics. I feel like the whole evening was so switchy, I still felt in control and then she would take control in these random moments. I don’t know. I let her fuck me, which I never… I’ve let my ex-girlfriend do that, I felt so free with her and we barely talked… And we hooked up one more time or two more times later in the summer. And one time was, again, in public, it was like in a bathroom stall at another West Hollywood gay bar. It was all so chaotic. And I think, I feel a little bit insecure about the fact that that was unequivocally the best sex of my life, all of that, all of the sex that I had with this person. I would love to be able to have sex that felt that good and I felt that comfortable when I also have the vulnerability of… I mean, the first time we had sex, I didn’t even have her social media, or her phone number, or anything, I knew nothing.

Christina: That’s kind of fun.

Drew: I know. And I don’t think that there’s any shame in that or anything but I just… I mean, when I think of other good sex that I’ve had, so much of it is, like, I had this one night stand the last time I visited New York, that was so good. And I’m like, it was because I met — I mean, that, we actually spent the evening getting to know each other and that was like more of a little, I don’t know, link later-esque romantic evening, but I still didn’t really know that person. And the first time that I had really connected good sex with another trans woman, we matched on a dating app and I went that day and I went over. It was so immediate, I didn’t know her and it was really good as opposed to the first person, a trans woman who I had sex with, we were talking a little bit on a dating app and then we went out on a real date. I feel insecure about the fact that I have not had incredible sex with someone who I have an emotional connection with. I’ve developed emotional connections with people who I’ve had good sex with, but yeah, I don’t know, that’s something that I’m thinking about.

Christina: I was wondering that, because as your co-host, I know, and also as your friend, I know that you do like to have that emotional connection, and that emotional connection is very important to you. And listeners if you recall our episode about sexting, you were talking about how you don’t like sexting people that you haven’t actually had sex with in person.

Drew: None of it makes sense.

Christina: And what I see you doing is a little bit of like, “Wait, why did I like this thing that I say that I don’t like so much, but I really liked it in these moments?” I don’t know.

Drew: Yeah, I don’t have an answer.

Christina: You don’t have an answer. Sometimes we’re just weird, sometimes we just like the shit we like.

Drew: So I actually talked to my therapist about this fairly recently where I was talking about how I like fucking my friends and I like having like, “Oh, I’m at a bar, and I meet someone, and I wasn’t expecting to hook up with someone, and all of a sudden, I’m having this whirlwind sexual experience.” And what I feel deeply uncomfortable with is sexual experiences where it’s like, “Oh, we’ve been on a couple of dates and now it’s time that we’re going to have sex.” Or that sort of — there’s some intimacy established, but we don’t feel totally comfortable with each other. And what I realized is it’s because… Or even like, “Oh, I’ve hooked up with this person and it’s going to stay casual, but now we’re going to hook up again.” But we’re not really friends, we can hook up once in a while. And I think the thing is that then it becomes about sex. Whereas if you have a random hookup at a bar, or if you hook up with your friend, it is chaos. It’s about the chaos or with a friend it’s about the intimacy. It’s about like, “Oh, we have a friendship and I guess we’re going to cross this line.” And that’s interesting and fun, and there’s chaos there, but there’s also an intimacy and a trust there. And with someone out at a club, it’s like, “I never have to talk to you. I don’t even know you.” It’s so nothing and it’s so like what’s happening? And again, it pulls me out of my head as opposed to like, “Oh, I am meeting up with this person from this dating app where we are going to go on a date and then we might have sex tonight.” It’s so much about the sex and I get so in my head about it, and I think it makes it so I can’t enjoy myself, or I can enjoy myself, but I can only enjoy myself when I’m focusing on them. And then I’m enjoying making them feel good and making the date be… I’m focused on doing a good job. I’m focused on making them feel like, “Oh, it was good that I went out on this date, and this is a good date, and good success.”

Christina: This “absolute pleasure to have in class” ass comment over here.

Drew: Yeah, I know.

Christina: Dani, where do you see intimacy, chaos, are you like, “I see this pattern where maybe the sex I’ve had leads towards more chaotic experiences that I’m like oh, maybe that’s what I enjoy.” Or is it like, “Maybe there’s a more intimacy route.” Or you’re just kind of like, “Hey, maybe all sex can be good and all sex can be weird, and that’s kind of just the way the cookie crumbles?”

Dani: Yeah, I think that most of my sexual experiences have been with complete strangers that I met on dating apps. And maybe we’ve been talking for like 15 minutes, maybe we’ve been talking for like a couple of days, but usually in those experiences, I’m very toppy, and like Drew said, very focused on the other person’s pleasure. And I find those experiences fun, still. I still have a good time even if I’m not having an orgasm, I still think that they are valuable sexual experiences. The first time I ever had intimate sex with somebody that I was in a relationship with, it sort of just blew my mind in a way, because I was having a sustained emotional relationship with that person and I didn’t expect that sex would be better or different in that sort of environment, but it definitely was for me. Like I said, I was able to let my guard down and be pleasured, and let other people touch me for the first time. And that was a really big deal. But also, I think I just love sex in any form, which sounds like, duh. But yeah, I think I just prefer to be the person that’s giving the pleasure, and being the one that has this in-control sort of role in the sexual relationship. Yeah, for me it’s all about whatever feels good in my body.

Christina: Yeah. I think that can be really hard to predict what we’re going to think feels good on our body on any given day, that is something that can change. So of course, there are days the kinds of sex that I think are great change over time because of my relationship to my body, how I feel at any given moment also changes. So sometimes in retrospect I’m like, “Oh, that was really good.” While in the moment I felt like, “This was fine.” But maybe with the gift of hindsight, I’m like, “Oh, actually that was a little better than I gave it credit for.”

Dani: Totally.

Drew: Can I ask you a question as a bottom?

Christina: Oh, me? Yeah.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Hello.

Drew: No, as Christina, resident—

Christina: Famous bottom, hello.

Dani: Famous bottom.

Drew: Yeah. The best sex that you’ve had, either one story you told or just good sex that you’ve had in general, do you feel part of that being good has been you feeling comfortable in communicating to the person what you wanted or was it that they were taking control and you truly were able to forget about figuring out what she wanted and that you just were able to sort of give yourself over to them?

Christina: I think it’s a little bit of both. I think in the story that I told, I had had sex with another woman before that, a couple of them before that, and it was fine, but this did feel very much like someone being like, “Can you just shut up and don’t talk? Can you just shut up and just… you’re going to be fine, I’m going to take care of this.” Which was great, love that energy, love to be taken care of. But I do think, especially in more relationship settings, I do think there is a place for having that ability to communicate and feeling comfortable in that communication, but I don’t know. I do think part of my gut reaction to be like, “Oh, the best sex I’ve had is the sex where I don’t have to do all of the work of communicating.” Because famously, I’m a bottom and I don’t like doing work. It’s just not my ministry, I don’t like doing that, it’s not for me, which is complicated because obviously communication is really important in sex, and as is all of the things that we love that come with communication, consent, all of those good things. Sometimes I’m just like, “I don’t know, I’ll just figure it out. I’m so tired.” The silence of two tops like… Mmm, that sounds interesting.

Drew: But no, but I get it. It’s just so interesting because I don’t know—

Christina: And in fairness, I know Drew has a complicated relationship with her top identity, so I just want to put that on the record. I want that in there.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: I know that.

Drew: Thanks. Yeah, the listener can’t tell that.

Christina: Yeah, I know.

Drew: Well, I’ve had friends be like, “You’re not a top, you’re a bottom who just hasn’t figured their shit out yet.” And so, there was a period of time in 2019, especially after this experience with this one person, where I was like… I mean, I’ve read about this in this essay I wrote about her, where I talk about how after that experience, I was like, “I’m going to be a bottom now, I’m going to find someone who is a very vocal top and have sex with that person.” And I did and it didn’t go well. And I actually feel pretty badly about just… I mean, I don’t think I did anything wrong per se, I just think that it was probably pretty exhausting for them. And probably, as far as like, “Oh, I did a good job, it was worth going out with me.” I don’t think that person left our two encounters feeling that way. I think they left feeling like, “This kid needs to figure her shit out.” I was like, “Why am I forcing that?” Dani, I agree with you where I’ve had some sexual experiences where like yeah, I didn’t cum, it wasn’t focused on me, but I really enjoyed being intimate with that person. And I don’t know, I don’t think that’s inherently worse, I don’t think there’s anything worse about that. I do think there are people who would maybe have had the experiences I’ve had and feel totally satisfied. The reason why I’m dissatisfied is simply because I am dissatisfied, because I have had these hints at these other experiences where I’m like “Oh, I would also like to have that sometimes.” I would also like to have that be a part of what sex looks like to me, but I don’t know. Some of my best sexual experiences haven’t even really been sex, or at least not sex in the way that most people would define it. I don’t know, my 21st birthday hooking up with my… I’m probably not supposed to talk about this. Hooking up with this person who we just made out all night, and teased towards other things but then… No one’s going to listen to this podcast. It was a friend of my sisters and I swore that I would never repeat it, but now it has been so many years that I think — I’m a new gender, I think we’re all fine. But it just was such a sweet, intimate… I don’t know, before I came out, sex to me when I had penetrative sex, I was disassociating. And so, that night I wasn’t because my genitalia wasn’t involved for reasons other than transness. And so, when I think about the best sex I had before transitioning, that was it. But it wasn’t sex, we just felt like making out and had our shirts off, but it was sexual, and it was intimate, and nice, and I don’t know. So I don’t know, I feel complicated about that, because when I said before, that was the only time that I’ve ever had an or someone had given me an orgasm. I mean, for years, I was trying to be a guy, and was having penetrative sex, and I was having orgasms, but I wasn’t enjoying them. And it was more of a biological need/doing what I was to do/it does feel good, but it just is really complicated. So yeah, I think it was really hard for me with my ex once I transitioned to also to transition our sex life. I think it was something we both struggled with, but I definitely would take responsibility for that, of trusting the experimentation or the switching things up that she wanted to do it, rather than she had to do it. I think I was really insecure about that. I mean, it’s so interesting to think about. I mean, I’ve been out of the closet for over four years now, but I really didn’t start exploring the truth of my sexuality until spring of 2019. And then a year plus of that has been in a pandemic where the only people I fucked were my roommates, which was its own exploration and got to try some things with people I feel really comfortable with. But for the most part, I don’t know, that made me feel more confident that I was a top, hooking up with my roommates. Because that was also the first time that I got to top using a strap-on, and that felt great. And I was like, “This is what I want to do.” That felt very good to me. And I was like, “I’m into this.” And so, I don’t know, I mean, now that things are opening up and the world is whatever, who knows where I’ll end up? Anyways, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Drew, I was wondering what is figuring out if you’re a top or bottom going to really do for you in the end?

Drew: Oh, nothing. I mean, that’s the thing, is for a while there, I let it go. I was really sort of comfortable letting go. But I think for me owning that identity at a certain point was me accepting that if I didn’t want to be penetrated or if I didn’t want someone to touch my genitalia, that that didn’t negate the sexual experience. I could sort of be like, “No, I was topping.” Not that people can’t top and have… Obviously, all these words are very fluid and, I mean, I think labels are as good as what they serve. Being a top is not something that I cling to, it is something that I’m very… I would still probably identify as a top-leaning switch and, I mean, it’s not something that I care that much about. I just think that it probably is an accurate descriptor and helpful in the sense of just me… As I work towards feeling more pleasure and experience — I just think the sexual experiences can provide different things. And maybe I only feel comfortable having certain experiences with certain people, and with other people I want to have a different thing. So maybe if I meet up with someone from a dating app who I’ve been chatting for a little bit, the first times we have sex, I do just want to top them in a way where my genitalia isn’t involved, whatever. And that is okay and that still can be like, I don’t have to be frustrated with myself. I think for a while there I was feeling very much like, “I need to solve this. I need to fix this. How do I fix my broken self?” And getting to a place of being like, “No.” It’s like, “Did you enjoy that experience? Did you enjoy being…” And usually, it’ll be like, “Yeah.” And the sexual experiences that I didn’t enjoy was when I pushed myself, was when I was having sex with someone, wasn’t into them — not wasn’t into them, but wasn’t into doing a certain — or maybe wasn’t into them — or wasn’t into doing whatever act that I felt like I needed to do, and that is actually what was leading to the experiences that were making me feel bad. And that I needed to be easier on myself as far as… There are places where I feel safe to experiment and there are places where it’s like, “No, we’re just going to fall back on old tricks.” I’m like, “That’s okay because you’re just hooking up with this random person and that’s fine.”

Christina: Yeah.

Dani: But where does kink and all that stuff come in for you for sex? Do you remember your first times exploring those parameters with another person?

Christina: That is an excellent question. No, I don’t think kink has come into my life a ton, not because I am not interested, but I think because as the resident non-dater of this dating podcast, I don’t put myself in a position to have those experiences very often. But it is definitely, I think, coming out of this Paul Blart, Mall Cop, it’s on the docket of things, it’s like on the docket of experiences that I’m like, “All right, we’re going to have to enter a new world, we’re going to enter the world again, everybody’s going to get jabbed and do some weird shit, let’s be a little more open to new experiences” than perhaps I have been in the past, because my other reaction usually is like, “No, I’m all set. Actually, I’m going home. I don’t want to have any conversations that I’m not ready for. I wasn’t actually prepared for this. I have to go. I got to go right now.” So I’m trying to do less reactionary “no” and actually allow myself a second to, like — but maybe you would actually enjoy something different than what you assume that you would enjoy. So I think TBD on kink for me.

Drew: I’m excited to see where that goes for you.

Christina: It could go crazy, who can say?

Drew: For me, I think it’s — unsurprising, based on everything I’ve said — I think a lot of it’s been based on what my partner is into and I’m pretty open, but I think for the most part it’s been guided by what my partner is interested in and then I’m like, “Yeah, I can totally do that.” What about you, Dani?

Christina: Yeah, what’s your origin story there?

Dani: Yeah, I think that I’m very similar to Drew in that way of like… The first time that I had ever started having sex that I would describe as kinky was with this woman that I met while I was doing AmeriCorps.

Christina: Love that.

Dani: We were doing that together and she would just ask me to do things to her. And I was like, “Well, I want you to have a good time and I want you to feel like this sexual experience has been fulfilling for you, even if this is something that I’ve never done before, I’ll do it if it makes you feel good.” So yeah, that was my first foray into it and then I was very into it after that. And I would explore it with other partners a little bit. I can definitely be down with kinky sex, but sometimes I just want to be vanilla and just have normal, average sex, yeah.

Christina: Yes. Yeah, I think I just want to have boring sex, that’s like we have a house with a picket fence and 2.5 kids, let’s be boring as shit about this.

Dani: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I think there’s a middle ground for me that is usually where I’d like to live. I love when something can be intense enough for me to just get out of my head.

Christina: That does seem to be the thing that—

Drew: It’s such a big thing for me in sex.

Christina: … Is recurring, yeah.

Drew: It’s just like how do I get my brain to… It’s not even turn off, because I want to be present. I can turn my brain off, that’s what I don’t want to do. It’s like I want to be present in a way that is well, present and not… Yeah, I don’t know.

Christina: Yeah, because your brain too “on” is another form of dissociating. It’s too thinky, overthinking that. It’s just another form of deciding to take yourself out of that moment.

Drew: But it depends because it depends if we’re talking about sex that’s kinkier sex or kink that is very organized and thought through, I’m not in a kink community. I’m not one to talk about it in that sense. And I don’t have experience with that. And so, that is very thoughtful and I don’t want to say that’s not thoughtful, but I think what I’m saying… I guess I’m not really talking about kinky sex, I guess I’m more talking about aggressive sex.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: But aggressive sex can be better for me as far as not thinking, whereas if it’s… But then also, more vanilla sex, it can be really lovely and nice. And I think I just maybe have to be more into the person and maybe it’s just been a while since I’ve been really into a person, I don’t know. Dani, when you say that you sometimes really like vanilla sex, is that with any person or is that with someone who you actually might want to have a house in 2.5 kids with?

Dani: Yeah, I think that it is. With my ex that I talked about, even though we’d only gone on a couple of dates, I was definitely on the verge of having feelings for her and being a total dyke about it. And so, I was able to have that very intimate, sensual sex with her in a way that was devoid of any kinkiness. I think because, I don’t know, it just felt like that was a kind of sex that I was supposed to be having with her. I don’t think she would’ve ever asked me to do anything very kinky with her, which is why I sort of explore that side of myself more with very casual hookups, I guess? I’ve had this person that I hook up with on and for a year or more, and that’s a person that I feel safe exploring that side with, and they are very down to do whatever, and demand whatever from me, and I’m totally cool with that. But yeah, I think that it’s very different with different people. But for me, personally, when I have feelings of emotional connection with, it’s a little bit less likely for me to have kinky sex with them.

Christina: Yeah, that’s interesting. As our ending moment in this conversation, should we think about some sex energy we want for the year 2021? What are we hoping for? Apparently, I’m out here exploring kink, I guess.

Drew: Love it.

Christina: Something I said on a podcast, now it’s true. So Dani, what are you hoping to get in your year of 2021? What do you want your sex to look like?

Dani: I definitely want to explore more of the things that I have been dreaming of during my quarantine year in lockdown. So there are things that I was like, “I would never do that.” And then I’m like, “Maybe I would actually.” So getting into those things. But also, I famously have been looking for a tourist wife for a long time.

Christina: We’d make excellent wives, of course, you are.

Dani: So I think that there’s a part of me that wants that stability, but also the ability to be free-roaming, and have sex with other people on the side, and have relationships with other people. So I’m looking forward to exploring that more. I’ve been dating and it’s fine for the most part. And I don’t know where things are going to go with different people, but I guess the big thing that I’m looking forward to is just having sex for the first time in a year.

Christina: Yes, I agree with you there. That seems like it’ll be good when that happens.

Dani: Yeah.

Christina: Drew, what do you got?

Drew: Yeah, so since my ex and I broke up, I have not had sex with anyone more than two times, everyone who I’ve had sex with, we’ve either had sex once or twice. Some of those I would’ve had sex with them more times, but it just didn’t work out. And some of them, not so much. And I think, though, a lot of it is somewhat of a defense mechanism. You don’t really have to explore certain things or really get into certain things… Well, I was doing that on my own, but you don’t have to do it with another person when you’re only having sex casually in that way. So I think probably I would like to have sex with someone like, I don’t know, three times, four times, who knows, or even more? Look, I think you can explore on your own, absolutely, I have been, and I really have. If I sound fucked up right now, you should have seen me in 2019, I’ve really made so much progress. And I think that exploration on my own was really important to me, but now I feel like I’m at a place where bringing a partner in or partners in who get to know me a little bit more intimately and having to confront that vulnerability is probably what would really serve me.

Christina: So I think it feels like everyone has kind of a ho shit but maybe allows some feelings to creep in. Everyone’s like, “Ho shit for sure, but also feelings? Not opposed.” Cool, I think that’s great. I think it’s a great place to be here in 2021. Does that mean it’s time for our second to last segment, called crush corner where we talk about things we have crushes on? Things, people, usually people. I don’t think any of us has picked a random thing.

Drew: I think, but that’s a good challenge for the future.

Christina: That could be fun. That could be fun.

Drew: Dani, do you have a crush for us today?

Dani: Yeah. I am very consistent, so I have had the same crush for a long ass time.

Drew: We love it.

Dani: And that is none other than Queen Latifah. I think about her all the time.

Christina: Yeah. God, that’s beautiful, yeah.

Dani: Yeah. I remember being a kid and watching her romantic comedies and being like, “Wow, she’s fucking beautiful.” And seeing her as a romantic lead, as a woman who was not petite, and who was Black, and all those things, it was really revolutionary for me as a little fat kid. Yeah, so I have a major crush on her. I took that Autostraddle quiz that we did a while ago that was your dream celebrity date or whatever, and I got her, and I was like, “That makes sense.” Yeah.

Christina: Absolutely. Yeah, she is really quite a formative moment that—

Dani: Oh yeah.

Christina: … Chicago really did.
Dani: Oh, yeah.

Christina: It’s a lot to take in for a young CT. Drew, who are you crushing on this week?

Drew: Well, okay, so we had a conversation earlier today where we decided… We were both gushing about the same person, and then we were both like, “Can we not sexually say that this person is our crush because of just our pop culture enthusiasm for her, even though it is not sexual because she is a child?” And that person is Olivia Rodrigo.

Christina: Yeah. So that damn album came out today.

Drew: Yeah, we recorded these early, so that’s a little context.

Christina: So listeners, you’re going to say, “Oh, that album that I have memorized by this point, the thing I’ve been listening to for months on repeat?” And I will say, no matter when this episode comes out, I will say, “Same, I am also listening to it, still probably.” I texted Drew this morning and said, “Could we just transition into having a Sour podcast? It’s just only about this album.” She is a phenomenal talent. I think I am so thrilled to see her teenage rage, and joy, and anger and insecurity all in one album. It feels incredible to bang and when I finally deign to visit my parents, I will turn that shit all the way up, and drive down the streets I used to live on, and just cruise with my feelings, and it’ll feel so good. So thank you, Olivia. And again, I can’t express how non-sexual this is, you are so young. God bless you, girl. Go off, but my gosh, oh God.

Drew: Yeah. I was really a skeptic at first when “Driver’s License” came out. I was like, “I’m not going to listen to a song written by a 17-year-old. I’m getting too old for that, I’m sorry, whatever.” And then I listened and then I was like, “Oh, okay.” I mean, look, as we established at the beginning of this episode, I love coming of age movies and I think there’s something about adolescence that… I mean, I think for a lot of queer people, it feels really palpable because we didn’t necessarily have the adolescence we wanted, or maybe we feel like we’re having a second adolescence, or whatever. It’s not an excuse for bad behavior, but I do think it is a pretty common pattern. And I think there is something about art focusing on teenagers, made by teenagers that can just feel… there’s just like an emotion to it that just, I don’t know, it just really speaks to me and feels I can channel some lowercase ‘t’ trauma, maybe a little bit of uppercase ‘t’ trauma. I certainly did not have an experience like Olivia’s that inspired this album. There’s something about the emotion of it that it just feels so resonant and brings me back. And I was just dancing around the house listening to it.

Christina: It’s good as hell. Well, we have one last question for our guest before we leave and that was, Dani, was this a date? Was us recording this podcast right now a date? Are we all three of us on a date? It’s possible.

Dani: I hope so.

Christina: See, love that, love that energy. Drew always says, “Yes, it’s a date.” And I’m like, “Is it though?”

Drew: I don’t think every podcast recording is a date. I do think every time I go on a date with someone, it’s a date, which you don’t.

Christina: And that’s beautiful.

Drew: And sometimes they don’t… Look, being queer is a wild journey for all of us.

Dani: Yes.

Christina: We’re all just trying to learn something.

Drew: Dani, where can people find you and your work?

Dani: You can find me on Autostraddle, just search Dani Janae and you’ll find me. You can find me on Instagram @bell.biv.dahoe, that’s my Instagram handle. And then I’m also on Twitter @figwidow, that’s F-I-G-W-I-D-O-W. Yeah, that’s where you can find me.

Drew: Great. Thank you so much for being with us today!

Dani: Thank you for having me, this was fun!

Christina: Yeah, thanks for kicking it!

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much, and see you next week!

Christina: Yeah, we’ll absolutely see you next week and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be, wilder things have happened.

Drew: Except you know what, I also think it’s important to clarify to the listener that if you ask someone if something’s a date or not, you probably should take that as sort of a moving forward, that I don’t think every time you see someone… that’s not really direct communication as much as it is, not really respecting someone’s boundaries. And we do like boundaries here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is the boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: It’s so weird that our best sex ever episode comes out this week because we recorded at the beginning of the summer, and then I spent the summer having the best sex of my life. And not that everything in the episode is inaccurate, it’s like a time capsule. And I love that. It’s like a little inspirational moment for people, of like, “If you are having the problems Drew was having, give it a few months. Everything might be… not everything, let’s take it easy, but you might have some good sex in your future.” Love that for our listeners and for me.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 104: Sexting or Something Like It

What comes after DM slides? Sexting! Or if you’re me there are like six more steps. Nevertheless our main topic this week is sexting and we’re joined by one of my very favorite writers: Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya.

We start with a game of Sapho or Drew’s 2014 Journal before getting into all the ins and outs of sextual relationships. We’re talking tenses, we’re talking instigation, we’re talking pictures — including the vast possibilities of the Live Photo. This week our direct communication is even hotter than usual!

SHOW NOTES

+ Unfortunately, you have to be Kayla’s girlfriend to see her writing skills via sext, but anyone can read her writing skills in fiction. Here’s one of my favorite stories by her: Field Games.

+ We’ve been asking for a lesbian Grindr as evidenced by this article from B Nichols circa 2011.

+ And by this podcast episode with Shelli from this year.

+ Apparently Scissr made the Guardian before its ill-fated launch.

+ I’ve actually interviewed Mae Martin twice. After season one and after season two.

+ Okay now I’m confused how The Huntsman: Winter’s War isn’t gay?? I mean, look at this photo:

Still from The Huntsman. Charlize Theron as the evil queen strokes Emily Blunt's chin.

Drew: Are you doing role plays out of a scenario of, “You’re touching me right now” or, “I wish you were touching me?” What tense are we in?

Kayla: Yeah, I was going to ask the same question actually, because that’s something that’s always interesting to me, especially just because we are all writers also.

Christina: I was going to say a group of writers. What tense are we working in, how are we feeling? Is this a close third? What’s happening here?

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Christina: I’m Christina!

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the wild and crazy world of dating.

Drew: Queer dating.

Christina: You said something wild. I was going to introduce myself again but I’m glad you said queer dating, I think that actually is a better transition.

Drew: But please queer, introduce yourself.

Christina: As Drew mentioned, my name is Queer, I go by Christina, occasionally. I’m a writer at Autostraddle, a queer on the internet who is often deranged and today I have been eating a bag of M&Ms, just a Ziploc bag of M&Ms all day. I do feel lightly nauseous, but that’s the gamble I’ve decided to take.

Drew: I think it sounds worth it?

Christina: Yeah, I’m feeling good about it. There’s just M&Ms in here and Whiteclaw.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: Let’s journey on. Who are you?

Drew: Winning combination. I’m Drew Gregory, I am also a writer at Autostraddle where I do a lot of film coverage and also talk about dating, queer dating. I’m also a filmmaker and a trans lesbian.

Christina: Hot. Sick and hot.

Drew: Yeah. I also spent the weekend with my family for the first time since the pandemic. So, that’s where I’m entering this podcast episode from that headspace and good times.

Christina: Yes. That’s a really interesting energy to bring in, I’m glad that you have it. We have a game, as per usual, to play.

Drew: Yes. Yes, we do.

Christina: And then we’re going to have our main conversation with our special secret guest, who you don’t get to know who it is yet, listeners.

Drew: Yeah. And our topic this week is sexting.

Christina: Blah! That’s how I feel about sexting, we’ll get into it.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Let’s start. Let’s start this game!

Drew: Cool, you seem super comfortable. Okay. So, the last time that I came up with a game, it was to roast you, Christina.

Christina: Yes, that’s me.

Drew: So, I thought that this week I would bring in a game to roast myself.

Christina: Oh, interesting.

Drew: Yeah. So, the name of this game is the very creatively titled “Sappho or Drew’s 2014 Journal?” So, I’m going to be saying some quotes and you’re going to tell me if you think that the quote is by Sappho or by me in 2014. I can give some context if you want, or we can just jump right in.

Christina: Nope, I get it. Let’s roll.

Drew: Great. Okay. So, first quote is: “The fear of death is simply the fear of time.”

Christina: Fuck. This is going to be harder than I thought. I’m going to say, I’m going to say that’s you.

Drew: It is me. Good job. Okay. The next one: “Once again, love drives me on.”

Christina: Are any of these going to be both? That feels like it could be both.

Drew: No. That would be great but no, none of them are both.

Christina: Okay. So, then again, I simply must say that that is Drew.

Drew: No, that’s Sappho.

Christina: Damn, that’s Drew energy.

Drew: Yeah. There’s a lot of these that are, they are pretty much all Drew energy, and apparently all Sappho energy.

Christina: No. Yeah. I get the game, turns out.
Drew: Yes.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Okay. “I don’t know what to do, my mind is divided.”

Christina: Sappho.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Yes. I’m fist pumping.

Drew: Yeah, fist pump away.

Christina: Thank you.

Drew: “Her hair is as gold as the mirror she holds and it flows all the way down her back.”

Christina: Sappho.

Drew: No, that’s me.

Christina: Drew! Wow, all right.

Drew: “I’m not supposed to talk but I nod and respond to her touch.”

Christina: Drew.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: “I must suffer.”

Christina: Again, Sappho but I want it to be both.

Drew: It is Sappho.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: “Life will only be so patient.”

Christina: Drew?

Drew: Uh-huh (affirmative), you’re doing really well at this. I want you to know that I tried this out on a few friends and they failed, like statistically did worse than they should have, so you’re killing it so far. Okay. “She slid her hands down my back and through my hair and I began doing the same to her, soon we were kissing.”

Christina: Sappho?

Drew: No, that’s me.

Christina: Hair is a motif for you, clocking that.

Drew: Oh, yeah. Look at that. “I have not had one word from her. Frankly, I wish I were dead.”

Christina: Drew?

Drew: No, that’s Sappho.

Christina: Deleting my account. Sappho.

Drew: Yeah. “You came and I was longing for you.”

Christina: Ooh, Sappho.

Drew: Yeah. “I want to say something but shame prevents me.”

Christina: Drew.

Drew: No, that’s Sappho.

Christina: But points were made, I think by me.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Absolutely.

Christina: For sure.

Drew: I think that’s probably the most me of them, which is great because gay shame has just been going on for millennia.

Christina: Yeah. Untold millennia, it’s part of our community and culture. Hot.

Drew: “There is the painter and there is the woman examining herself, exterior, interior, who is she?”

Christina: That’s Drew.

Drew: It is.

Christina: Yeah. Is that 14-year-old Drew?

Drew: No, no, no. 2014 me. So, this is yeah. So, this is all from my journal. So, that was actually me journaling in a museum and I was just very struck by painting, because who doesn’t journle in museums?

Christina: Are you gay?

Drew: I might be gay.

Christina: You might be gay. If your children are journaling in museums they might be gay, just a note.

Drew: Everyone should know that I was not out of the closet at the time so, it was fully just, thought I was a straight guy.

Christina: Vibing.

Drew: Yes. Vibing indeed. Okay, a few more. “You will have memories because of what we did back then when we were new at this.”

Christina: Sappho.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Yes. I’m so good.

Drew: You’re doing quite well. Okay. “We simply drift together and drift apart the remnants of the greatest passions lingering as the next great passion presents itself.”

Christina: Drew.

Drew: Yeah. I wasn’t keeping score but you’ve gotten most of these.

Christina: Yeah, I’m also now regretting not keeping score. I would have hated if we were keeping score and I was doing poorly, but now that I’m doing well, I’m like, what—

Drew: I’m going to say you’ve gotten nine right.

Christina: Okay. That sounds like a great number.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. This is the last one.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: It’s a really tricky one though. Okay?

Christina: I’ve got to get 10.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. Ready? “I woke up this morning with a big zit starting to form under the skin between my eyebrows a day before my date, of course.”

Christina: I’m going to say that’s Drew.

Drew: It is. Big surprise, big surprise.

Christina: Big surprise, big surprise. Sappho was not letting us into the zits of her life, unfortunately.

Drew: Well, thank you so much for playing.

Christina: Wow. That was so fun.

Drew: I hope you learned a lot about me, or learned nothing about me.

Christina: I think I learned, I personally learned that my knowledge of you is correct and that we are friends. And I think that’s a great thing for me to learn.

Drew: Yeah. I was going through a breakup during this time, it was rough.

Christina: Yeah, didn’t seem not rough, I’ll say that, didn’t seem gentle, perhaps we could say?

Drew: I survived, and so did Sappho, well eventually she died but, you know

Christina: Sure, sure, sure. Are you ready to talk about our main topic? Do you think we’re mentally there?

Drew: Oh, my God, I’m so ready.

Christina: I’m ready, again, to do a lot of learning, this is going to be a listen and learn space for me and I’m really glad that we have such a guest who is so brilliant and thoughtful and, I think, an expert in the realm of sexting.

Drew: Oh, I agree. Kayla, do you want to introduce yourself?

Kayla: Yes. I’m Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya, I am also a writer at Autostraddle and elsewhere on the internet, yeah.

Christina: Sexting expert, sextpert.

Kayla: And sexting expert. Yes.

Christina: Yes. I will be putting that in all of your materials going forward.

Kayla: It’s a very important part of my CV.

Christina: Yes. Yes. We love to respect a CV here.

Drew: I want the people at home, or wherever you’re listening to this, to know that, I don’t know, a month ago I texted Kayla to ask for advice on what it’s like to meet someone when you’ve been having an internet courtship, whatever, and Kayla, I was wanting all of this emotional assistance, et cetera, et cetera. And Kayla was like, Oh, we just sexted. I was like, got it, got it, got it. Okay, cool. Cool, cool.

Kayla: Yeah, it wasn’t that deep, I guess in the beginning.

Christina: I think that’s really a beautiful, just a nice way of framing things. Things we can always bring a Drew/perhaps Sappho perspective to things. It can always be quite deep, but sometimes it can start out not that deep and get deep, that’s really beautiful. I want everybody out there to remember that beautiful thing.

Drew: Yeah. So, what’s your relationship to sexting? Have you always liked it? Is it always been something that’s, has it developed over time your comfortability with it?

Kayla: Yeah. I mean, I think I did always like it, I wasn’t sexting up a storm in my, I don’t know, like in college or anything, I mean, to be fair, I was deeply closeted. And so, my dating and sexual history was all kind of a mess for a while but once I did come out, I would say yes, that sexting was something I was into pretty much right away and part of it, I think is just being a former Tumblr kid a little bit. I was just used to connecting with people in that way, online, over text or whatever. I’d done that for so long, that it just felt very natural to me, especially since I hadn’t had a lot of sex and stuff. So, it almost felt easier at first and then I just realized that I liked it, and it continued, and yeah. But then there was a long period of time where I didn’t really think about sexting that much, it was during my last relationship and then when that relationship ended in a pretty dramatic way, all of a sudden there was this period of time where I was sexting all the time, whoever, whenever, wherever.

Christina: Just “You up?” constantly.

Kayla: Exactly. It was a steady stream. Yeah. That’s my journey with sexting, I guess. It’s not a lot, a lot, not a lot again.

Christina: Peaks and valleys.

Kayla: Exactly.

Drew: When you are sexting, do you primarily, does that mean sending photos to you or does it mean dirty talk text texting sexting?

Kayla: Yeah…

Christina: That was a question I actually have for both of you, because I have trouble delineating on that front.

Kayla: Yeah, I think that, that’s something that varies person to person because for me I usually, it’s a multimedia experience. You have the texts, you have the photos, you have I guess that’s it, I know some people do audio message type stuff, I’m less into that, I think.

Christina: You’re not sending a VR lens or anything, there’s no Oculus happening?

Kayla: I want a 4D experience.

Christina: Yeah.

Kayla: No. It’s pretty much just texts and photos but I’m not necessarily expecting that in return, I guess, is what I would say is that, I like to use photos but I’m not like, “I need photos!’

Christina: Yeah, “Pics or it didn’t happen!”

Kayla: Exactly. I don’t know about you, Drew.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I’ll do both but usually at different times. I feel like when I’m sending photos, I’m photo ready and that doesn’t just mean, I don’t know, the proper things are trimmed and shaved and et cetera, et cetera, but also just spiritually, I think it is a different energy that I need in order to text sext versus send pictures sext, and I don’t know. I also feel like a lot of times when it comes to sending pictures, I think I tend to do more of, this is for — not for everybody, but for like 20 people on my close friends or whatever, as opposed to sending it specifically to someone. That’s more for, if I’m in a relationship, I’ll send sexy photos but I don’t often send photos to someone who I’m newly dating or interested in, but I will more text. I also think I’m better at, I don’t know, just like I’m a writer better than I’m a photographer?

Christina: For sure, yeah. That’s true.

Drew: And so, I feel like I could confidently say that I’m pretty good at the texting side of sexting.

Christina: Yeah, I would believe that of you. That seems like something, a skill set you would have.

Drew: Yeah. But I pretty much only do that if I’ve had sex with someone before. I don’t—

Kayla: Really?

Drew: Yeah…

Christina: Okay. So, interesting, interesting.

Drew: Well, there’s two. Either, I will do it with someone who I’ve had sex with before or who I don’t think that I will ever have sex with.

Christina: Oh, okay. Sure. Okay.

Drew: For example, I have sexted with people who are, I don’t know, who slid into my DMS and live in, I don’t know, there was someone who lived in Paris who was talking to me during the pandemic and I was like, “It’s a pandemic. You live on a different continent, this is so not real—

Kayla: The stakes are low.

Drew: Yeah, like whatever. And if someday we met, great, but it didn’t feel — I wasn’t dating this person, but I have cut off when things started to move in that direction with the person who I’m virtually dating in Canada where it actually feels like, “Oh, someday I will have sex with this person, probably.” And so much of sexting to me in text is based on what I know the person is into, and what we’ve done together or what I think that they would want me to do, and I just feel like if I haven’t actually had sex with the person—

Christina: You need that baseline experience.

Drew: I think so.

Christina: And then you want to translate that into the texting space.

Drew: Yeah, I think so.

Christina: Interesting.

Kayla: Yeah, I mean, I’m the complete opposite. I’m trying to think of an instance where I didn’t do the exact inverse of that. I have almost always, if I was regularly sexting with someone, it was sexting happened for a while before we actually had sex, and I actually almost use it as an opportunity and figure out what they’re into.

Christina: Right, you’re bringing your study knowledge into the physical space at some point.

Kayla: Yes.

Christina: You’re bringing, I’ve done this reading, let me bring you the course book I’ve done.

Kayla: Exactly. It’s like research, it’s a little exploratory, which can be difficult at first, I think, because it’s, anytime that you’re having sex with somebody for the first time too, you are feeling out like, okay. In a perfect world of course we’d be able to have these clear cut conversations, “This is what I’m into,” but I think we all know that, that’s not really how it works a lot of the time, and so, it’s just like yeah, “doing research” a little bit, exploratory moment.

Christina: Putting together an exploratory committee.

Kayla: Yes. I have my binder and my notes… So, that’s what sexting has felt like for me. And I think for me too, especially when I was coming out and first starting to sext and stuff, it was a way for me to explore and research myself. It felt like a lower pressure, less vulnerable setting for maybe saying, “This is something I’m specifically into,” or research on myself.

Christina: I think that makes sense. Yeah, I don’t do a ton of sexting to the surprise of — checks notes — literally no one. But when I did, when I was youthful and had more vim/vigor, it was easier to do before a meetup scenario or in, we’re sliding into DMs, we’ve slid into texts scenario, even though it was less sliding into DMs, because again, I was youthful and I was on social media less. But it always felt like, “Okay, yeah, this is the first step and then we can move into the pressure of being in real life sex.” But this moment is a “we’re exploring, we’re figuring stuff out, we’re typing.”

Drew: That makes so much sense to me and yet in practice, I just am like, what do you, I guess you’d say something and if the person’s not into it, then I just, I think it’s connected to something that I need to let go of in sex in general which is, I want to be doing a good job. And I want to be, “Well, what if I say something and they’re not into that? In real life, I can pick up on body language or ask. But I feel like with sexting, it feels, yeah, it’s exploratory in a way that maybe this should be a challenge for myself, maybe I should try sext without — oof, yeah. Because it makes total sense of, what a great way to figure out what you’re into before the stakes are as high as you actually being there naked with another person or not naked, if what you’re into is not being naked.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, I do hear what you’re saying.

Kayla: I mean, I will say, it does run a risk some of the times because I have had experiences where it’s like the dynamic over sexting was not the dynamic in person. And I naturally would feel disappointed, or at least taken off guard, which isn’t fair because I do think that’s what makes sexting weird is, in some ways it can feel like the most authentic expression of desire in what you want because it is so low stakes, you’re not facing this person, you can just say whatever, but then that also introduces a fantasy element to it. So, sometimes I feel like people might present themselves in a certain way. I will say this has only ever been people asserting that they are tops and then they are not tops. I’ve never seen it in the other direction.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, no, yeah. I hear that.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: You see, that’s really interesting to me because I feel like I’m more dominant in person. I mean, I’m not sexting as a bottom, because I’m not — I’m not sexting before having sex but I feel like I feel in sexting a little bit timid about saying certain things or I don’t know, maybe something about it, like being written out, and maybe I should try voice memos, but it being written out and I’m putting it out into the world, it gives me—

Christina: Does it feel like it’s on the record for you?

Drew: Maybe.

Christina: You’re like, should this be on the record?

Drew: Maybe, yeah.

Christina: Like “I’ve said this, there’s no taking it back”?

Drew: But that’s also my own — again, not to make this about my own problems that I need to work through, but I mean, what is this podcast?

Christina: No. I think that’s why we decided to do this podcast.

Drew: Yeah. But, I think in person, I just again, I can pick up on whether someone’s into something and can work up to something. I mean, I guess you can work up to something message back and forth, I don’t know. I just think that in the heat of the moment, when — because when I’m sexting, I’m often not turned on. Often the other person is turned on and I’m like “Oh, cool. I’m going to get this person off,” which again is connected to the thing I was just saying before—

Christina: The performance thing and the doing well.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. So, you’re bringing a real “come into work” energy with this. You’re signing into the office, you’re punching that time card.

Drew: Not only is my sun in Capricorn but also my Mars is in Capricorn. So, but yeah, I just, maybe that’s something I should work on.

Christina: Could be good.

Drew: Also a lot of times when I’ve sexted, the people aren’t — a lot of people aren’t good at it.

Kayla: Well, that is true too.

Christina: Right. Well, I think that’s the elephant here in the room. I mean, people aren’t good at texting a lot of the time generally, finding your text rhythm with a person is always like “Oh, my God, we have it” or we simply don’t and that’s always a bummer, but sometimes you can have that text rhythm and then the sexting rhythm, you’re like, “Oh, no, where did it go? What happened?”

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: That’s not nice. And that’s a challenge that I usually would get. That for me is like, okay, I’m giving up. I’ve never been invested enough at that point to be, “Okay, I’m going to work on this, and figure out how we can sext better.” I’m like, “Oh, no. Well, there’s a butterfly or something I have to chase, I’m busy now.”

Drew: No, it’s just like anything inside, sometimes where you’re like, if you’re not good at this thing, we can do another thing. And some people are better at sending pictures than they are at the texting and knowing that and being cool.

Christina: Opening that mixed media approach, we love to see it.

Drew: Yeah. I’ve definitely had that where I would get someone off and then they would take a picture of themselves and be like, “I just came” and I’m like, cool. We both — and then maybe I could also come at some point because of that picture, as opposed to the back and forth. I’m also curious though, when you’re sexting via text, are you doing role-plays of a scenario of like, “You’re touching me right now” or “I wish you were touching me?” What tense are we in?

Kayla: Yeah, I was going to ask the same question, actually, because that’s something that’s always interesting to me, especially just because we are all writers also.

Christina: I was going to say, a group of writers, what tense are we working in, how are we feeling?

Kayla: What point of view?

Christina: Is this a close third, what’s happening here?

Kayla: Strictly second?

Christina: Challenge. Sext in strictly second person.

Kayla: I usually have done a mix, actually. It depends. And sometimes it’s meeting the other person and what they are doing but I would say more often than not, it was like, honestly I don’t sext as much as I used to, it’s, people stop sexting once they move in together, turns out, and pandemic.

Christina: I’m taking notes.

Kayla: Or the only people we talk to. So, but if I remember correctly I would go off of cues, because I feel like, yeah, I would definitely do both. And I don’t know if that was just like yeah, me responding to what they’re saying or just choosing something and going with it. But I know that I’ve done both and I’m comfortable with both. I feel like more often than not, it was the more prose style, this is what’s happening, let me set the scene.

Christina: Like a narrative candle, in some ways.

Kayla: Yeah, exactly. That has more of a contained fantasy. I think for me, at least it was easier to get off in a context like that versus, “Here’s what I wish you were doing to me right now,” or whatever.

Christina: Yeah. I’m trying to think because of history and time, I think also my gut says, because I probably am not ever going to be a person who initiates sexting, I was like, “Okay, whatever tenses, whatever vibe you’re bringing on, I’ll just match that energy. I’m just going to, that’s fine, I can do that.” I don’t know that I’ve ever really driven the conversation/tense discussion in that manner. Yeah. I don’t know. What about you, Drew?

Drew: I think I definitely skew towards, yeah, prose style, like this is a little fanfic starring the two of us.

Christina: Yeah.

Kayla: Yeah.

Christina: Quick one shot.

Drew: There’s just so many possibilities and that is a fun way I think, to explore certain things. Again, I’ve enjoyed using sexting as an exploratory tool with people who I’ve been having sex with, who have already, so, it’s interesting the idea of, yeah, you could do that beforehand. But because it’s not Oh, I would only sext by describing things that have already happened, I would delve out of that. So, yeah. But definitely keeping it in a narrative, I think was always something that, but I also with porn, I like narrative, I like a story, even if it’s a bad story, I like to have some sort of narrative.

Kayla: Same.

Christina: Genuinely, one of my favorite voice memos I ever got from Drew was like, “I just watched a porn and it was fine, but also it was a really lovely end to the narrative.”

Drew: Oh, because what I was happy about is that, usually the way porn works—

Christina: I’m listening.

Drew: Is that there might be a narrative but then once they have sex, they have sex, sometimes they even drop the dynamic while they’re having sex, that always really annoys me where I’m like, “Wait, it’s that person’s first time with a woman and she’s like, well, how is she? Keep the story going, come on.” But in this, it had a little epilogue at the end where there was more story, just a two minute little epilogue, I really appreciated it. And I did, I think I recorded it and sent it to Christina.

Christina: It was a very charming, listen to this little button. How cute is that? I woke up, like me at 7:00 AM, like, okay, vibes. But I do understand that because I am the same way, not necessarily in porn, but I’ve never been a person who understands how do you masturbate and have just a fantasy? Because how did you get to that place even in a fantasy, I’m like, well, how did I get here? What do I have with me? What am I doing later? What was I doing before this? Where am I going? What am I like, all of those details, I need to have nailed down or else I’m just too distracted. So, I think in the sexting form, having a space to be like this is this, here’s the scene, I’m setting it.

Kayla: Here’s the scene. I need bare minimum, a dynamic to be established.

Christina: Here’s an energy.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I had an ex once who was trying to create a little whatever scenario and the scenario was that we were having sex in a bookstore and I was like, “Wait, what kind of bookstore?” And she was like, “What?” And I was like, “How big is the bookstore?” “Does that matter?” I’m like—

Christina: Yes!

Drew: Yes, it matters. The difference between The Strand and—

Christina: Am I in a Borders?

Drew: An East Village Books, like Barnes & Noble, those are all very different energies.

Christina: Where’s the Starbucks? Is it built in? Yeah, talk about that, absolutely matters.

Drew: I need to know these things. Yeah. She did not understand but, that’s why we’re not together. That’s not why we’re not together, but.

Kayla: It all came down to the bookstore, the imaginary bookstore.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t know. I feel the vibe in this chat right now is we would all say, yeah, of course. That’s why you’re not together, that totally makes sense.

Drew: Is it a fair assumption that people who are good writers are good at texting sexting? Which is now why I’m calling sexting when it’s with sex?

Christina: Texting sexting.

Kayla: Textual sexting.

Christina: Textual sexting.

Kayla: I don’t think it’s necessarily a given because it is its own specific type of writing, I feel like, so, I don’t know.

Christina: Yeah. Now, I’m just thinking and I’m trying to think of every person that I text and I just feel like, I think it probably helps more than it — less than it would hurt. I think it’s more helpful in — but I don’t know that it’s necessary. But then again, I don’t know that I’ve actually really texted long-term with someone who isn’t in some way a writer of some kind.

Drew: Isn’t everyone a writer?

Christina: Yeah, I was generally just going through my contacts, well, no, I don’t think, I think everybody turns out that way. That’s a brain teaser.

Drew: Okay. Well, moving on to pictures and that type of sexting.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: I don’t have anything—

Christina: Oh, okay.

Drew: Oh, sorry—

Christina: I was really just listening. I was just like—

Drew: Actually wait, I do have a fun thing that I have — who did I tell this to? I don’t know. I’ve definitely preached this before and either people are like, yeah, obviously, or people are very surprised by this. And that is the potential of the live photo. I think people in their sexting lives aren’t utilizing the live photo to the extent that they could because it’s such a fun little, I think if you send a video to someone, that’s a choice in a way, which is a great choice, but it is a choice in a way that a live photo it feels like a little tease or it’s a sexy photo but then I don’t know, you like — move your, depending on where the photo is of, but your hand along your thigh or lick your lips, or just something where it’s a little and I don’t know, it’s a fun little thing that I think people should do more.

Kayla: Yeah. I would’ve never thought of that.

Christina: Yeah. I think the idea of bringing a live photo into intentional space instead of “Oh, whoops, that’s a live photo,” which is usually what happens to me when I’m taking photos of I don’t know, a baked good, that’s usually where I’m like, “Oh, damn it, that’s a live photo.” But bringing them into an intentional space, I think that has potential. It’s like you’re making a GIF, is what you’re doing.

Drew: Yes, exactly. I mean, and this started as an, I discovered this because someone sent me and then was like, “Oh my God, did I accidentally send a live photo?” I was like, “Yeah, it’s really hot.” And it’s like, “Oh, my God, your peanut butter is in my chocolate, Reese’s are born.” It was very exciting. And since then it has been a little go-to.

Christina: Yeah. I’m going to meditate on that, that’s a hot tip. Also, I am straight up a person who almost never photo sexts, I’m trying to think if I have actually genuinely done it.

Drew: Yeah. When was the last time you sent, and how naked, if you don’t mind sharing?

Christina: I’m going to have to be thinking of that for a minute. I honestly might have never done it. That doesn’t seem right, but it might be right.

Drew: That’s fine.

Christina: Yeah, no, I mean the memory banks coming up empty there. Yikes.

Drew: That’s not yikes. You don’t have to send naked photos to anyone you don’t want to.

Christina: Oh, certainly. But I’m just very vain and I always have a full face of makeup on, so it’s what the hell are you doing, really? But yeah.

Drew: It’s something you want to bring into your life?

Christina: It’s something I could probably move into.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: But again, there’s never a natural space for me to reach into a photo space. I’m always like, “Well, I could just write that down instead, I could write words instead.” Yeah.

Drew: Okay. So, how do you both — well, especially Kayla, and Christina, weigh in if you have memories that you want to bring up.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: How do you initiate with people if you haven’t sexted with a person before, does it just naturally get there because things are getting flirty? Because there’s that in-between where it’s not sexting but you are talking about sex or it’s like in the area or you send a picture and it’s “Oh, my God, look, I’m cooking dinner!” And it’s like, um, you’re topless. You know what I mean? Not like topless topless, that would be a choice. But like a teaser, the point of that photo is not that you’re cooking. But like how do you get there, to sext actually?

Christina: Yeah. I think I’ve only ever gotten there from the, “we’re flirting and then we’ve led into it naturally” zone, I don’t think I’ve ever sent out just a, “Hey, you up, let’s sext” vibe. I don’t think I’ve done that one.

Kayla: Yeah. I think I too have always done kind of, like, where, it’s somewhere between awkward and natural dance of escalating the flirtation. Yeah. Because I will say also, when I was first on dating apps and stuff and that was two relationships ago now. So, dating apps were also just becoming a thing but in that space, I always found it actually really hard to get to that point. And I don’t know if that was also just when I was on dating apps because they were somewhat new, like Tinder was very new. And so, I don’t know if people just didn’t have practice or what but I remember that being a struggle where it’s just like, okay, we’ve been so flirty and it feels very, like we’re stuck in a place now. But after that, it’s always worked out better for me when somebody has slid into my DMs, I mean, that’s literally how I’m in a relationship now, is she slid into my DMs. But she and I, we also did a little bit of a dance leading up to before we actually started sexting. And if I remember correctly, I actually made the first move on that but I think she just didn’t want to, because of our age difference.

Christina: Age gap discourses has entered the chat. Considering that Kayla and I are both on this call, it took a shockingly long time for time for that.

Kayla: Shocking. Shocking, finally got there.

Christina: Finally got there. Incredible work.

Kayla: But then every time too, once it does hit that point, it’s just okay, we’re fine now. We don’t have to do the dance again, once you start, it’s okay, that door is open now.

Drew: Totally.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: Did it start with text or pictures, when that line was first crossed?

Kayla: Text, I think. Yeah, text. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, I feel like text is easier.

Kayla: And I feel that’s usually the case for me. Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Kayla: I really like photos a lot, I really do, but I feel like for starting out, it’s usually texts and then, yeah, that’s phase one of the exploration, next is some photos, and you know.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s interesting because I wonder if, what the difference in-between, sliding into a DM versus if you’re on a dating app and you meet somebody? I do feel there is a difference there and the ease in which you can move to a sexting space, but I’m not sure why that difference exists at the same time.

Kayla: I think part of it is just, I don’t know, if somebody, I mean, obviously in theory, if you’re on a dating app, you are looking for either sex or to date or something like that, but that’s not always totally the case. Whereas, if you slide into somebody’s DMs, it seems like a very active, I am hitting on you, even more so than the dating apps do.

Christina: I’ve seen this content from you and I’m like, I’m into it.

Kayla: Yeah.

Christina: Hello, I’d like to be more involved in your life in some way.

Drew: It should be the opposite, theoretically.

Kayla: It should be!

Christina: Absolutely! That’s why I’m confused.

Drew: Theoretically, if you’re on a dating app, but I actually, when I think about it, I’m like, “Oh yeah, I’ve made friends on dating apps,” but it’s annoying but it’s also because of, I think specifically queer women and non-binary people in this lesbian community on dating apps, we don’t have a Grindr and people don’t really use Tinder that way. And so, I think part of it is that people are pretty timid on dating apps and I think maybe feel a little bolder in a social media space because it feels like you maybe know the person more, or there’s a little bit more of a… yeah.

Kayla: Because usually if the slide into the DMs comes after another little awkward dance of, okay, we’ve been following each other, we’ve been each other’s content, there’s something that’s established here and now I am going, it does feel like making a move. But you just made me think of something. I don’t know if either of you know about — this is a tangent for a second, but there was briefly a lesbian version of Grindr that only existed in Chicago and it was called Scissr.

Christina: Good.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Great. Tempting. More notes.

Kayla: But like S-C-I-S-R, or something—

Christina: It simply didn’t need a single vowel. Absolutely not, Consonants only.

Kayla: It did not last very long, but it existed when I lived in Chicago so I was one of the beta users of Scissr, the application Scissr.

Christina: So, what was that like? Was it successful? Did you succeed ever?

Kayla: I hooked up with one person out of it, but it felt like a very drawn out and dramatic thing that I was just like, “Ok, I don’t think this is…” Yeah. And that was the girl who every time I went back to her apartment, she had an additional ferret.

Drew: Oh, my God. Ferret girl!

Kayla: Ferret girl.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: How many ferrets?

Kayla: We only got up to two.

Drew: Christina’s face is the face of someone who has never heard about ferret girl.

Christina: I’m not, and we’ll be following up off mic about that one, my friend. But the phrase “additional ferret” made me immediately jump to six ferrets, I got very worried about ferrets because they are gross. Wow. Okay.

Kayla: Yeah. That was Scissr. The funniest part about Scissr too, was that I read some interview with the dykes who created it and they did this whole interview about how they wanted it to be classier than Grindr and how it could actually be used for professional networking, and I was like—

Drew: No!

Kayla: I was like, you called it Scissr, first of all!

Drew: That’s exactly what we don’t need.

Kayla: That’s the opposite.

Christina: We need less places to professionally network as lesbians, I’d say. We need less of that, we’re good.

Kayla: We are maxed out on networking.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: No more. No more of that I say.

Drew: But then you fuck your coworkers because there’s no lesbian Grindr and then boundaries are problems. And this is why all of the problems could just be solved by Scissr.

Christina: I feel like when personals transitioned from personals to the Lex App, I feel there was an idea that that could have been a space where in we were doing, “Want to have sex tonight, come find me tonight at X time.” And that just didn’t work out because of all the reasons we enumerated. Yeah. It became, “Do witch magic with me under the moonlight.”

Drew: I logged on to Lex, I redownloaded it to be like, “Okay, we’re all starting to get vaccinated, maybe Lex is going to return to that. And the first two things I saw — one was, “Just because we’re all vaccinated doesn’t mean I’m not traumatized, I’m still not meeting up with people.” I was like, cool, thanks for sharing that thought. And then the next one was like, it was I don’t know, it was something similar, I just was like, I guess we’re not, I guess, okay.

Christina: I can’t imagine the energy it would take to log onto a dating app, create an ad that is, “Just so you know, I have trauma and I’m not doing this.” Okay. So, you could have just not done that, I guess.

Kayla: Write it in your diary, I don’t know.

Christina: Simply write it in the journal.

Drew: Wait, wait, wait, Lex isn’t your diary?

Christina: I’ve heard. I’ve been locked out of my diary for a long time because I don’t remember my password and I can’t get back in and I don’t care.

Drew: Should I just start posting quotes from my 2014 journal as Lex ads?

Kayla: Yes.

Christina: Yes.

Kayla: Absolutely.

Christina: You will have 18 relationships by summer’s begin. No doubt. Great. By Memorial Day you will have two girlfriends, no doubt.

Drew: I mean, fear of death is simply the fear of time, so.

Christina: Is there any final sexting thoughts we want to hit before we wrap? I want to make sure we’ve got all of our sexting feelings out there. What is one sexting piece of advice that you would give to people who are either thinking about it or wanting to try it anew perhaps? And I’m not talking about myself, certainly, not at all.

Kayla: I mean, I do think that, because I write advice semi-regularly for Autostraddle, and I feel like I do bring up sexting from time to time because I do feel like a lot of people really struggled to articulate their desires and stuff, which is understandable. I mean, sometimes we don’t even have that stuff really figured out, but I do think that sexting can be a really useful tool for figuring out what you’re into, also potentially figuring out what somebody else is into, exploring things, seeing if you’re open to it and just in a lower stakes environment than figuring out when you’re sweating in a room with someone.

Drew: Yeah. I think that’s really good advice that I’m going to really ruminate on and potentially bring into my own life and maybe report back on how that goes.

Christina: I can’t wait for that report back. I want it desperately.

Kayla: I guess that’s something that I could have mentioned when we were talking about tense and stuff, but I also do tend to ask questions — and not, there’s a way where that can be a cop out. I’ve definitely sexted with people who were either not good at sexting or just weren’t willing to be as vulnerable or whatever and so, their version of it is just only asking questions. They’re like, “What do you want me to do? What do you like?” And it’s just, okay, you’re not going to contribute to this at all? Where’s the improv 101, we are doing this together.

Christina: “Yes, and” energy please.

Kayla: Exactly. So, I think that can sometimes be a cop out, but I think that if there’s a mixture of yeah, me saying this, but then maybe I do break it and say, “Do you have something that you like to be called?” Or whatever, and then letting it be more of a madlibs situation where they can fill in some of the blanks.

Christina: “Workshop this with me” energy. Yeah. Drew, you look so thoughtful right now.

Drew: No, I’m just absorbing it all. I’m here to learn as well, so.

Christina: I love that. I love that for you.

Drew: Thanks.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like I don’t have any tips because I haven’t really used that muscle in a while, read the room, read the vibe, I feel like is always my go-to tip in most situations. Yeah. But I think, I don’t know, maybe Drew and I will bring some of this energy to our summer escapades and we’ll see what happens.

Drew: Yeah. I love it. I mean, I also think specificity is — this is just honestly, this is just like a tip for writers, where it’s just like, oh, it makes sense that I think in sexting, sometimes people who have been not as good with sexting with me, they’re just jumping too quickly to the next stage of this whatever imagined sexual encounter, and it’s for me, what’s going to work is if I can really imagine it. So you know, you gotta have a little digital language. Yeah. Come on. A little poetry here.

Christina: A little poetry here is great. Let’s have a crush! Yo Drew, do you have a crush?

Drew: I always have a crush.

Christina: I know you do. Who’s your crush this week?

Drew: Okay. So, this is actually a really landmark moment for me, because it is a celebrity crush but it’s a friend celebrity crush. So, it is a crush that is, for me, not sexual but for a lot of other people in my life, it is sexual, but I have done some mental work and realized that I just want to be this person or be friends with this person.

Christina: So, is this a crush or is this a humble brag? Just wanted to check.

Drew: What? No, no. This person is — no, no, it’s not a humble brag because this person is not my friend. I am just saying.

Kayla: Oh, it’s a friend crush?

Drew: Yeah. No. Well, first friend crush can mean, “This person is my friend and I have a crush on them” or, can mean all sorts of things. In this case, it’s a celebrity crush but it’s just someone who I really like a lot as a person, but it’s not really sexual for me. Okay.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: So, the second and final season of Feel Good is out and I think it’s great and I just love Mae Martin so much. Humble brag is that I have gotten to interview them.

Christina: Well, there it is.

Drew: But I just think that I love Feel Good and I think it’s that I love how messy the show is and how messy they’re willing to be in this fictional/autobiographical space. And I relate to them a lot, in a lot of gender ways and painful, romantic ways. So, they’re my crush of the week.

Christina: Yeah. It is a really, really, really good season. So, thrilled by that. I guess I’ll go. Oh, yeah. I watched Snow White and the Huntsman and Snow White and the Huntsman 2 last night. Couple of things. Both aren’t great. Second one, may be better. Tough to say. And while Charlize, incredible energy, she brings a performance, it’s really just like ma’am, you didn’t have to commit this hard. Emily Blunt in the second film, I said, well, okay, she’s giving you ice goddess, she’s giving you angry but sad mommy, and I said, I respect that, thank you Emily Blunt, I love your work, great. She’s my crush corner this week, Emily Blunt. Yay.

Drew: Okay.

Kayla: I saw both of those movies in the theater, so.

Christina: I saw the first one in the theater for sure, the second one, I don’t know that I knew it existed and I’m still a little perplexed as to how it exists but it does and there it is. Emily Blunt.

Drew: I’ve seen neither. I want to know, what’s the second one called?

Christina: Snow White and the Huntsman 2, or Huntsman’s Corner? I don’t know, something—

Drew: Wait, really? So, wait, wait. So there’s still the Huntsman?

Kayla: Yeah.

Christina: He’s still in it.

Drew: The Huntsman is still there. I just assumed that—

Christina: The only person who’s not in it is Kristen Stewart.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: Wait, Kristen Stewart isn’t in the second one?

Kayla: No.

Christina: Correct.

Drew: Wait, I’m sorry. This is not important, but—

Christina: That’s why I don’t know how it got made, I don’t know how it got made. She’s not in it.

Drew: Fascinating. Well, I love learning. Okay. Kayla, who’s your crush?

Christina: It’s The Huntsman: Winter’s War.

Drew: Wow.

Kayla: I was like, it has something to do with a battle or a war or something because it’s basically just Charlize Theron and Emily Blunt, fighting.

Drew: That sounds good.

Kayla: Which, you know, hot, so.

Christina: Right. So, right.

Kayla: Okay. I’m not done with it yet, but I’ve been watching Girls5eva, and so, I’m going to say Renee Elise Goldsberry is my crush.

Christina: Sick. Perfect.

Kayla: Which just feels like a circular moment for me from back when she was on The Good Wife, and was very underused on The Good Wife, but was great.

Christina: True.

Kayla: And yeah, I don’t know, her character is incredible, she’s just a self-obsessed bimbo, who knows she has the best voice in the room, and so she’ll just bust it out at any point. Yeah. It’s been a joy to watch. She’s definitely been the best part.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: That’s incredible.

Drew: Well Kayla, will you tell us where people can find you and your work?

Kayla: Yeah. So, I am @KaylaKumari on every single social media, I consolidated that at one point, so, very easy to find.

Christina: Nice job branding.

Kayla: Yeah. I mean I’m on Autostraddle almost every day, it seems I have something go up there, it’s an easy way to find me. And just at my website also kaylakumariupadhyaya.com that’s where you can find more of my fiction work and stuff.

Christina: Yay! Go find, we love, we respect. We do have a question and it’s: So, Kayla, was this a date? Are we on a date right now?

Kayla: Is this a date?

Christina: I don’t know.

Kayla: Is this a date? I feel like the true lesbian thing is always to not ask or answer that question but just let it sit there in the universe and then maybe ask everyone you know after the fact, like, “Do you think I was on a date or not?”

Christina: Cool. So, we’ll just send out a poll to the listeners after this episode airs and just let them decide if we were on a date or not.

Kayla: Yes. Need someone to make that decision for me.

Christina: Yeah. Okay. That tracks, great.

Drew: Great. Cool.

Christina: I think that’s amazing.

Drew: Thanks, Kayla.

Kayla: Yeah. Thank you guys. This was amazing. It’s great.

Christina: This is fun. I love fun.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate. And you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar. And this podcast was edited, produced, and mixed by Lauren Klein. You can find me online @c_gracet on twitter.com, the website. And you can find me on Instagram at @christina_gracet.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com, because it’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much. And, you know, see you next week!

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week. And we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah. And you know, maybe next week, maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be! Wilder things have happened.

Drew: Except you know what? I also think it’s important to clarify to the listener that if you ask someone if something’s a date or not, we probably should take that as sort of like a moving forward — I don’t think every time you see someone you should… That’s not really direct communication as much as it is like not really respecting someone’s boundaries. And you know, we do like boundaries here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: You now how in the old days in the Victorian era or whatever, people would lust after ankles because they weren’t seeing them. That’s how I’ve been feeling lately when it comes to sexting where I’m like the mildest sexual text, or picture, or video from someone who I’m flirting with, I’m just like, “Oh, my God, this is so hot.” And I’m like, “Is it? Or has it just been a really long time?” You know what I mean? Oh, this pandemic just keeps on going, doesn’t it?