“Survivor” Winners Parvati Shallow and Erika Casupanan Are Gay and Parvati’s Bae is Mae
Parvati Shallow Comes Out as Queer, Hard Launches Mae Martin Relationship: “We’re here. We’re queer. Happy new year.”
Picture this. It’s your last night home for the holidays before you return to Brooklyn. Your fiancé told you she’s going to shower, so you go to get your laundry from your parents’ basement. Suddenly, you hear a yelp. It’s your fiancé! She’s yelling your name! You run to her, unsure whether you should be concerned or excited, because she’s still yelling, screaming really, either exuberant or panicked. You finally make it to her; she yells “LOOK!” and turns her phone around to show you THIS post in which Survivor winner Parvati Shallow comes out as gay and also being in a relationship with Mae Martin!
No, reader, this isn’t fantasy. This is real life. Everything I just said is true. Yes, I was doing laundry. Yes, Parvati Shallow — already a gay icon, winner of Survivor Season 16 — is queer and dating non-binary comedian Mae Martin. Mae also posted about the relationship on their own Instagram this morning, which earned a supportive string of heart emojis from none other than Sophia Bush, as well as congrats from people like Alison Brie and Catherine Bohart.
Eagle-eyed members of the Parvati fan club may have seen this announcement coming — there have been rumors that Parvati and Mae have been dating swirling since November 2023. There have been little hints on social media about Parvati and Mae’s romance ever since, like:
Mae’s fans have also been on high alert, as Mae has mentioned Parvati in recent live shows and on the Handsome Podcast they host with Tig Notaro and Fortune Feimster.
And all of this was after Parvati said “gay rights”, a video that it’s very normal for me to have known about for several years and to have watched, you know, a few times.
Even before Parvati — now officially the first ever queer woman to win Survivor! — came out, she was a gay icon, evidenced by Las Culturistas’ Matt Rogers saying so (and me agreeing) and also by the fact that she is my wi-fi password. I don’t know what makes a gay icon, exactly, but I do know why I love Parvati. She’s arguably one of the best social manipulators to ever grace the Survivor screen — the Black Widow Brigade pulled off maybe the best move of all time that I won’t spoil here for anyone who hasn’t watched her season.
According to her website, Parvati works as “a coach, author and speaker helping high performers transform their lives” “through bold, inspired action.”
Parvati Shallow Is Survivor’s First Queer Woman Winner, One of Survivor’s Most Compelling Players of All Time
In every season I’ve seen Parvati in (full disclosure that I have not watched Winners at War!), she dominates the social game. She can seemingly flirt with just about anyone, which has been used as an argument against her. But I think to be able to flirt is to be able to see people as they want to be seen, to tell them what they want to hear, to give them what they want to receive, all while making the power dynamic feel equitable. To do that with any one person takes social and emotional insight; to do that with many, in a game like Survivor where people are specifically trying not to be taken advantage of? That’s a freaking gift.
(The only person apparently immune to Parvati’s wiles is Sandra Diaz-Twine, a social manipulator queen in her own right. Both Sandra and Parvati draw from a well of emotional intelligence far deeper than the average player, which they employ with very different tactics, to very similar ends. And maybe that’s exactly why they don’t get along. And if you want to hear more about this, please watch Season Two of The Traitors with me because both Parvati and Sandra are on it!! Keep an eye out for those recaps here on Autostraddle.com!)
But Parvati is more than her ability to connect with and sway just about every person she encounters. She’s also a challenge beast — she can do things like stand on a pole for SIX HOURS and then, while up there, negotiate with the last remaining player so that they don’t have to play until they literally drop. She’s also an introspective, evolving human who shares openly about what it’s like to be labeled as a Survivor “villain”, and how that reshaped her life.
(I do love Parvati’s villain era though, in Survivor Season 20, aptly named Heroes vs. Villains. This season includes my personal favorite moment in Survivor TV history, nay ALL OF TV history, when a certain Fedora-wearing someone misuses an immunity idol, and Parvati hisses, “You wasted it.” She couldn’t be more right, and she couldn’t be less afraid to tell this man how stupid he’s been — how delicious. Please sound off in the comments if you also cherish this moment!!!)
All in all, I love Parvati because she embodies the human contradictions I try so hard to allow for in my own life: she’s so utterly confident in who she is, in embracing her own power, while also being so deeply open to change and new discovery. And you know what? That’s queer. Welcome home, Parv!!!
Survivor Season 41 Winner Erika Casupanan Is a Lesbian Becomes First Lesbian Winner
But reader, this isn’t all. Mere moments after the Parvati news came out, I did what any normal person would do — I pored over the comments on her post. And that’s when I saw a comment saying, “Two survivor winners coming out in one day!!!” and my HEART SKIPPED A BEAT! Who else came out today, I wondered and also said out loud to my fiancé. “Erika!” answered the other commenters on Parvati’s post, since we’re all in this together, aren’t we!!
So of course, then I had to go see what Erika Casupanan had to say for herself! And yes, readers, this too is true: Erika Casupanan is Survivor’s first lesbian winner!!!
And who among us hasn’t sat underneath a table eating grapes in order to secure a boyfriend only to end up drinking wine and realizing we’re lesbians. Happens to the best of us!!
Erika, Survivor’s first Canadian winner and Survivor’s first Filipino winner, has extremely cool purple hair which should’ve been at least a LITTLE bit of a hint, is a keynote speaker and media correspondent. She hosts a podcast called “Happy to See Me,” where she interviews reality TV, social media and other pop culture personalities and appeared in the first season of The Traitors Canada.
Erika won Survivor Season 41 by playing the middle and not making a single enemy — a strategy that seems to have become more and more prevalent in the “new era” of Survivor. She and Parvati played very different games, but you know what they both have in common? THEY’RE BOTH QUEER!!!
Mae Martin on “Sap,” Camping, and Finding Queer Community
Photo by Tommaso Boddi / Stringer via Getty Images
I interviewed Mae Martin for the first time at the end of March 2020. The first season of their show Feel Good had been released as the early days of quarantine were threatening to last much, much longer.
It says a lot about how the world responded to that pandemic and the recent rise of transphobia, that three years later things feel even more challenging. But that’s why Mae’s new standup special, Sap, is such a relief. Netflix has taken a break from their regularly scheduled transphobic comics to make space for someone who is not only trans, but also really, really funny.
Mae’s comedy doesn’t avoid the seriousness of the moment but it does de-prioritize it in a way that feels important. The title of the show alludes to finding the good in a bad situation — Mae’s comedy is some of that good. They talk about gender, but they spend far more time talking about their ex and a moose.
I hope you enjoy my third chat with Mae for Autostaddle where we do not talk about their ex, but we do talk about gender and the moose.
Mae: Hey Drew!
Drew: Hi! You’re in LA now, right?
Mae: I’m in LA! I feel like we should’ve hung out by now?
Drew: Yeah, but now I’m in Toronto.
Mae: Oh fuck! When did that happen?
Drew: I mean, I still live in LA. Sort of. I was in Toronto last summer and now I’m here for the spring. But the plan right now is July I’ll come back to LA and find a new place and then stay for a bit.
Mae: Okay cool. And is this all relationship based?
Drew: (laughs) Yeah.
Mae: (laughs) Okay, okay, okay. Well, it’s so easy to work from anywhere now.
Drew: Yeah. Are you liking LA?
Mae: I’m loving it. But there’s stigma attached to loving LA. Like what does that say about me?
Drew: No, that’s a good thing!
Mae: I’m in the honeymoon phase. The sun, the Mexican food, it’s all good.
Drew: Yeah, I mean, it’s still so cold in Toronto.
Mae: Is it?
Drew: There’s nothing more boring than being in Toronto and complaining about the weather but I’m just like it’s April, I’m ready for it to warm up.
Mae: Yeah, it’s intense.
Drew: Okay, so obviously you’re from here. And your special starts around a campfire and has a woodsy aesthetic on stage. Are you outdoorsy?
Mae: No. (laughs) Well, it’s a complicated answer, Drew. I crave nature. When I’m in it, I love it. But I’m not a good camper. I’m good for the day. Maybe having some drinks by the fire. Then I need to go into a bed and have four strong walls. But when I was a kid I went to summer camp for nine summers in a row and they were the happiest times.
Drew: Oh wow! What kind of summer camp?
Mae: It was a canoe tripping camp. I went on like a twelve day canoe trip where you’re just camping and carrying your canoe on your back sometimes and canoeing all through the Canadian lakes.
Drew: Woah.
Mae: I was a real camp kid.
Drew: I do think as a kid I was better at being crusty than I am now.
Mae: Oh totally. Now I’ve got to wash my face twice a day. I need my products.
Drew: As a kid, did you ever see a moose?
Mae: I did! On those canoe trips I saw a bear and a moose and a lot of beavers. Insert joke there. But moose are fucking massive. They’re huge.
Drew: That’s still on my Canadian to-do list. I would like to see a moose. Obviously not too close. But I’d like to see one at some point.
Mae: They’re really majestic. But moose are kind of like the hippos of the land. They’re aggressive. They run really fast.
Drew: Speaking of moose, how do you construct your standup material? What’s your writing process like for standup?
Mae: It’s always evolving. It depends what I’ve been doing that year. In the past, for instance, I was working on a radio series and some of the writing for that turned into standup. This time a lot of it was from improv.
I finished Feel Good and was really craving light silliness and something slightly less gruelingly personal. So I went on tour doing an improv show, improvised standup, improvising with friends, and then a lot of stuff came out of that. I think this has a lighter feel to it. You can tell I’m having fun.
Drew: Yeah definitely. When approaching the special, what kinds of conversations did you have with director Abbi Jacobson?
Mae: Well, the first thing was just whether she wanted to do it. (laughs)
Drew: (laughs) Sure.
Mae: Then she came to a bunch of previews I did in LA and gave notes on bits that weren’t working. I’d been touring the show for awhile and had gotten a little complacent with it. There was stuff that wasn’t working that I was still doing. It needed a shakeup. I think we reordered some bits.
And on the night, we discussed things like camera positions and worked together designing the forest stage. And with those bookending scenes by the fire, Abbi’s just a great director. We have a really similar taste. And I love that she’s not a standup, so she’s coming at it from more of a storytelling angle.
Drew: That’s interesting.
So I almost decided to do a bit where I didn’t ask you a single question about transness.
Mae: (laughs) That would’ve been a great bit.
Drew: I was like I’m really tired of thinking about it and talking about it, I’m sure Mae is really tired of thinking about it and talking about it. I’m not going to stick to that bit, I’m really sorry, but I will at least keep things a bit meta. So first I want to know, how have the pressures of discussing transness changed since doing press for Feel Good?
Mae: Oh I’d say they’ve amped up tenfold. First of all, I’m further along in that journey. I feel more solidly part of that community. So I feel more qualified to have thoughts about it. But it’s also because of all the legislation and hysteria around it. I’m sure this won’t be the case with Autostraddle, but it’s just been the pull quote of every interview. 1
So then it looks like I’m obsessed. I mean, I expected it a bit because of the content in the show. But I just keep waving the banner of like it’s just one part of the show and I say pretty much everything I want to say about it in the show.
Drew: Look, I know from talking with you before, and from Feel Good, and you even see it in the special, there’s a begrudging acknowledgment that everyone is waiting for you to talk about this thing.
Mae: Yeah and I’m always interrogating where that reluctance is coming from. But I think it’s mostly because it gets taken out of context. And because I have so much more I want to say. Plus the fear of being pigeon-holed. But like I say in the show, it feels important. And I do appreciate the platform to talk about it.
Drew: One of my favorite storylines in Feel Good is when fictional Mae is trying to decide whether to call out the abusive comic. I think so much of being in the industry is navigating when to speak up and when to just ignore things. And I would imagine it’s similar with comics who aren’t necessarily abusive — well, maybe they’re also abusive —but who are just constantly talking about transness. Trying to decide when to wade into it and point out that what they’re saying is wrong and when to just be like this has nothing to do with me.
Mae: Totally. It’s a lot to navigate. And I liked that storyline, too. It was interesting to me how little press focused on that storyline even though it was a pulsing thread throughout the series. But there was one scene where I talked about being nonbinary and that was the main takeaway.
Drew: (laughs) Of course. In all the years you’ve been doing comedy, was there ever a time where you questioned if there was space for you in the standup world?
Mae: Well, I had no backup plan or other qualifications. So I kind of had to make it work. (laughs) But I always had such amazing comics around me and such an amazing community. It brings me so much joy. I would never have given it up. I’m lucky. I’m sure some people have worse experiences than me and then don’t continue. But I was always able to surround myself with good people and I just love it too much to stop.
Drew: Speaking of, what comics are you loving right now? Who are you really excited to watch and perform with?
Mae: So many! It’s been really nice living in LA and getting to perform with so many people. I do a monthly show at Largo and that venue is amazing. It’s a real hub. I’ve gotten to meet some of my idols. I’ve been performing with Brett Goldstein a lot. And then like Tig Notaro, Sarah Silverman, Fortune Feimster, Zach Galifiknakis. I’ve been doing a lot of improv with Stephanie Allyne and Alana Johnson. Also John Early and Kate Berlant. Meg Stalter. Jes Tom. Who else…
Drew: I’m going to interrupt you because you’re naming all of our faves. But is there anyone queer or trans who is maybe less famous that our readers should know?
Mae: I’m not on the circuit the way I used to be, but definitely Jes Tom, Nori Reed, and Sydnee Washington.
Drew: They’re great!
There’s a moment in the special where you talk about being asked as a kid to pick which Spice Girl you identify with. It made me realize that’s kind of where a lot of conversations around gender have evolved to. Like it’s no longer two options, but it’s still only five options. And that’s the challenge when words and labels change but our cultural attitudes around gender don’t. Like great, we don’t have to just pick between Baby and Sporty. We can be Scary or Posh or Ginger. But what if [we want to be a] sixth Spice Girl or no Spice Girls or multiple Spice Girls.
Mae: Yeah it’s the same old story of labels being important in terms of fighting for legal rights, but being so inadequate in terms of expressing nuances of existing. And as soon as you choose a label it ends up inflating that part of your identity above other parts that are just as important. I hope one day we… I really thought… You know, I think I was slightly naive. And now I’m like it might take a hundred years for this system to be deconstructed.
Drew: I know, I was also feeling pretty good for a while there.
Mae: Yeah. (laughs)
Drew: Okay, but since owning your trans identity and feeling more settled in that part of yourself, do you have more people in your life that are also trans? Because in my experience that is one good thing about labels.
Mae: Yeah, definitely since moving to LA. In London, I had so many amazing friends, but I was very much just in the comedy community. I definitely feel more of queer community here in LA and have more nonbinary and trans friends. It does feel good. It feels reassuring.
Drew: That’s one thing I love about LA. I’ve found such great queer community there.
Mae: I mean, I’m sure it exists in London. Maybe I just wasn’t ready to find it yet. But it’s really nice.
Drew: How do you focus on the sap, so to speak? It’s obviously not the best time to be alive, but how are you finding the balance between staying informed and present while still focusing on the good stuff?
Mae: It’s a daily struggle, but I think scheduling in actual vacation time. Even if it’s just a day to be off my phone, not responding to emails. Be in nature or something. And just focusing on that stupid list I do at the end of the special. Things that make me feel good. I love playing the guitar and making music. I just recorded an album of like, serious music.
Drew: Oh shit!
Mae: Yeah, yeah. But I’m a real workaholic, so just taking enough time off to live a life. Otherwise, you’ve got nothing to write about. And, you know, a low dose of SSRIs and exercise. Exercise is key for me to just stay connected to the ol’ bode. It’s tough. Even though we know how to feel better. We know all these things. We just don’t do them. Everyone knows if they were on their phone less they’d be happier and more fulfilled. But it’s hard. Everything is designed to keep us distracted.
Drew: Yeah I started putting my phone outside my bedroom before like 10pm and it’s so annoying how much better I’m sleeping and how much better I feel.
Mae: Really? Okay I need to do that. I know I need to do that.
Drew: It’s so annoying. I wish it didn’t work.
Mae: I know it’s so annoying.
Drew: Okay one last thing. As far as your family debate goes with the moose, my immediate reaction was that a moose must have jumped over your parents’ car.
Mae: Ohhh interesting.
Drew: Like a big moose — but not the biggest of all time — leaped over and it felt like they just drove under it. That was my read. I don’t know what it says about me.
Mae: That’s a really interesting read. And it would explain the sound of the fur grazing the roof of the car.
Drew: This is my theory.
Mae: I’m going to bring this up to them.
Sap is now streaming on Netflix, you can also read Autostraddle’s review about it here.
1. Author’s Note: Please look at the pull quote I chose for this piece.
Mae Martin’s “Sap” Is a Comedic Balm for a Difficult World
I’ll be the first to admit it: I dragged ass on getting into Mae Martin. Friends have been recommending their work to me since before the beginning of the pandemic, but I just kept stalling. I had only seen one, short set of theirs on the Netflix special Stand Out that featured a ton of other queer and trans comedians. I mean, I loved their set and even mentioned to friends that I’d start watching Feel Good, but then I didn’t. My friends, even some of my straight ones, would ask me how I wasn’t into Martin’s work already, and I honestly couldn’t tell them why. Something clicked in me when I saw that one, short set on Stand Out, but I couldn’t figure out exactly what. I laughed at all their jokes, and I even repeated some to my partner before I forced her to watch Stand Out with me for a second time. Earlier this month, I saw Martin’s new comedy special Sap, released on Netflix this week, and I finally gave in to watching Feel Good and their other short set on Comedians of the World so I’d be fully prepared for it. I loved every deeply uncomfortable, deeply beautiful, deeply human second of both, but I could feel that weird itch under my skin again every time my partner and I got the episodes fired up to begin watching them. It took us under a week to finish them all. And when we did, I was again confused about the itch. When I got through all of Sap (which took me three sittings to get through), I solved the mystery of the itch: what I was feeling was genuine familiarity. What I was feeling all this time was seen.
Sap begins with Martin meeting their longtime collaborator Phil Burgers at a campfire he’s set up in the middle of the words. Martin and Burgers exchange pleasantries for a minute and then Martin stands as if they’re about to tell stories around the campfire. The screen fades, and we see Martin running onto a stage filled with trees, coming to the audience to tell that story they were just starting in the shot with Burgers. The beginning of the show’s set up gives the audience a clue of what to expect: a set where the “jokes” are often minutes-long recountings of stories Martin uses to bring out some larger point about the world around us. Like most of their comedy, their work in Sap is a combination of confession and observation edged out with a little absurdism and some exploration of the wonder they experience simply watching people they know and don’t know move through the world. The stories tend to wind back and forth through their beginnings and ends. Sometimes, it’ll seem as if Martin is done discussing a particular idea, and then they’ll bring it back to examine it more closely. The punchlines aren’t in your face, but instead, they kind of slide in through the back door of your mind, making you laugh raucously but also think more intensely about the points that Martin is trying to make.
Toward the end of the set, Martin says they’ve been vacillating between pessimism and optimism, but I would argue that they’re successfully optimistic — even more so than maybe they believe — while also staying thoroughly engaged with how difficult it is to simply exist in the world right now. Some jokes are more deliberately uproarious than others, like a bit about their father’s obsession with the moon and how watching the moon one night led to the revelation that Martin was conceived while their parents were having sex doggy-style. This launches Martin into discussing how much differently they feel about themselves knowing this information and how they feel like they can tell when other people they encounter are also “doggy-style babies.” They even end up looping this back in at the end when they’re discussing the teenage angst they felt growing up. Another bit about discussing future baby names with a new partner also leads to some belly-pain-inducing laughter as they illustrate how it feels to wade through the “graveyard of dead hypothetical children” they’ve talked about having with other partners in the past. They act out how some of the encounters with the ghosts of their dead hypothetical children would go to illustrate the difficulties of forming and sustaining romantic relationships. But mostly, the show’s material veers on the philosophical side, usually using the stories Martin crafts to elucidate some larger concept they want the audience to consider more carefully.
Because of Martin’s masterful balancing act of all these elements, the turns into more serious stories and observations of their set don’t ever feel abrupt or out of place. Martin, of course, addresses their experiences with addiction as a teenager and now as an adult. They get into the ways their body dysphoria contributed to the urge they felt to seek out experiences where they didn’t have to think about their body at all. They discuss the ways in which being angry about the world as a teenager is a proper response to the world we’re living in, because the world around us makes us feel like we’re powerless to change it. They, expectedly, discuss the struggles of living as a trans person right now in the midst of all the work happening to limit trans people’s autonomy and talk about how they don’t really want to be talking about being trans but all these other “big, multimillionaire” comedians are talking about it in their specials, so now Martin has to, as well. They even let themselves give into some wishful thinking about Dave Chappelle, Ricky Gervais, Louis C.K., and Joe Rogan when they discuss imagining them all sharing a medieval meal together and turning on the TV to Martin’s special. In the fantasy, after watching Martin’s bit about gender, they all change their minds immediately and realize how wrong they’ve been.
By the time they get to the last part of the set, they’ve already gone through a crescendo of emotions and reactions from the audience. They haven’t been quite as vulnerable as some might expect, but they’ve been vulnerable to prove that they’re trying to be as earnest as they possibly can throughout the special. Earlier on, they described themselves as being as full of feelings as a Campbell’s tomato soup can is of soup — “just full to the brim” — and the struggles they’ve had in letting people get close to those feelings. Throughout, it feels as if they’re leading to some big cathartic or sentimental or impassioned pay off, and they eventually do get there but not without a little audience uncertainty first. It’s an interesting turn of what we’re used to seeing in comedy like Martin’s, where yes, Martin does plan on laying bare their soul for the audience at the end — but not without making the audience work a little bit first. If Martin is going to be perceived, they’re going to do it in their way, and that’s exactly what they do. In the final part of the show, they tell a kind of obscure Buddhist parable with an understated ending about a man in a life-threatening situation taking a minute to taste sweet tree sap before his demise. They use this story to explain what they believe is true about our role here in these one lives we all have to live: We can’t fight to make the world a better place unless we’re also savoring the parts of it that bring us pleasure and joy. It’s a remarkable set up — and maybe very predictably, my favorite part of the show — that doesn’t necessarily give the audience that release they may be looking for but instead leaves us with something to consider, reminding us of the effort it takes to do the kind of work Martin does.
When we finished Sap together, I looked at my partner and said: “I think I know I was so anxious to watch this” and before I could finish, she said, “Yeah, it’s because you both think exactly the same.”
For most of us who have been through some serious shit like Martin has, being vulnerable — especially in front of large audiences — is one of the most heart-wrenching tasks in the world. And if you take all of Martin’s work, Sap included, as a whole, you can see how they’ve been trying to illuminate this fact in a way that is easy for people who don’t have that experience to understand. In Sap, Martin meets every story, every observation, every aspect of their set with a kind of hard-earned self-confidence that could only come from a person truly trying to navigate a world that makes it so arduous to be a person in it with some level of dignity, grace, tenacity and generosity. They aren’t just bringing out the weirdness of being a person in order to poke fun at the fact that we’re all ridiculous in our own ways. They bring it out to remind us that the weirdness of being a person is an experience we all share universally, so shouldn’t that connection we have mean something to all of us? Shouldn’t we all look at each other with care and admiration and absurdism and a little bit of magic? As Martin’s set points out, it’s such a simple question with an even simpler answer, yet we’re still not able to get it together on a scale grand enough to change the way we’ve been living. The answer then, according to Martin, is to never forget to taste the sap.
Also.Also.Also: Elliot Page & Mae Martin Got Matching Tattoos, So UMMM 👀
Tonight it is cashew shrimp & mango stir-fry, plus leftover chocolate cake! Let’s vote, should it be a beer or a glass of rosé with this “very classy” meal? Let me know!
Queer as in F*ck You
I cannot even lie, I would follow this dreamboat couple (in my dreams, at least) to the ends of the earth…
Elliot Page & Mae Martin Got Matching Tattoos & They’re the Cutest. “The pair of nonbinary Canadian actors posted a pic to Instagram [last week] showing off their brand new matching coffee cup tattoos. Page got his on his arm, while Martin got theirs on their side…. This isn’t the first time the two have been seen hanging out since both came out. And we highly doubt it will be the last!”
Related, Elliot Page Says ‘But I’m a Cheerleader’ Helped Him Overcome ‘Shame and Self-Hatred’
Who Gets to be Femme? My favorite thing I read today! Directly being delivered to you, from my high femme heart!! 💖
Speaking of things we love, this cover profile of Beanie was very popular with the Autostraddle team! Beanie Feldstein Is More Than Your Bestie
The Queer the Land Collective in Seattle Is Showing What Community Homeownership Means
Josephine Baker to Be Honored With a Panthéon Burial. Madam Josephine will be the first Black woman to be entombed in the Panthéon in Paris, a symbolic move amid racial tensions in France.
Tori Cooper Is 1st Black Trans Woman On Presidential HIV/AIDS Panel, Seeks To Focus On Equality
Neighbors Erect Large Pride Flag After School Bans LGBTQ, BLM Signs
At Least 29 Out LGBTQ Paralympians Competing in Tokyo, a Record Number
Saw This, Thought of You
It’s never too early for spooky season! The Many Faces of Women Who Identify as Witches (this also reminded me of Where My Black Witches At? Using Black Ancestral Magic Against White Supremacy, a piece I loved that we published last year)
How Sony Tarnished Jeopardy! and Alex Trebek’s Legacy
Bitch actually first published this in their print magazine in June (it was just released online), but wow couldn’t be more relevant to our OnlyFans times: Inside Social Media’s War on Sex Workers. I would pair that with: Inside StripTok, Where Strippers Have Started A New Kind Of Community
This knocked the wind outta me, Rest in Infinite Power. Lucille Times, Who Inspired the Montgomery Bus Boycott, Has Died at 100 Years Old. “Six months before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat, Lucille Times had an altercation with a bus driver and stopped riding the city’s segregated buses. She died at 100 from complications of Covid-19.”
Political Snacks
I don’t think I’ve ever done this before, and I cannot stress enough that I do NOT believe any of us should get news from comedians (not ever!), but I watched the John Oliver show this morning discuss the cruel clusterfuck of Afghanistan and it was honestly the most balanced take, damning of all sides of the American “intervention” over the last twenty years, that I’ve seen yet and I wanted to share it:
Mae Martin on “Feel Good,” Labels, and Getting Kicked Off Hinge
Mae Martin is a comedian. They would like me to remind you of that. Even though their semi-autobiographical show Feel Good — second and final season released on Netflix last Friday! — is about trauma and addiction and codependency, they want you to know it’s funny.
Of course, if you’ve watched the show you don’t need this reminder. Because it’s not just funny, it’s very funny. And of course they’re a comedian. Never have I written “Drew: (laughs)” so many times while transcribing an interview.
Still amidst all that laughter, I’m grateful to talk to Mae about the depths the show does explore like forgiveness, misguided romanticism, and the gender identity of Ryan Gosling.
Drew Gregory: When we spoke a little over a year ago, you were single and wondering what dating would be like during the pandemic and I’m wondering if you’re still single and if you dated during the pandemic.
Mae Martin: (laughs) What a first question!
Drew: (laughs)
Mae: I definitely dated during the pandemic. I mean, I was online a lot. Reconnecting with exes as well and… you know what, because I give away so much about my personal life in Feel Good, I think I am going to keep the details of my dating life private.
Drew: (laughs) I think that’s a great idea.
Mae: But it’s been bizarre. We all have to kind of learn how to be human beings again and— wait, did I tell you I got kicked off Hinge?
Drew: No!
Mae: Oh yeah I got kicked off Hinge. People were reporting me because they thought I wasn’t really me.
Drew: (laughs) Oh my God.
Mae: It was so depressing, because it was at the start of lockdown and I wanted to go on some walking dates and I think like one guy and two girls all reported me. And then I contacted Hinge and was like hey I’ve been kicked off and they were like yeah that’s because you’re pretending to be Mae Martin.
Drew: (laughs)
Mae: And then I tweeted about it so they reinstated me.
Drew: Oh good.
Mae: It was stressful.
Drew: I was kicked off Tinder but I don’t have a reason. They said I was soliciting and I wasn’t. Unless that includes getting paid to write about my experiences dating. Soliciting for content.
Mae: (laughs) It’s creepy when you don’t know why you’re banned.
Drew: I mean, you have a reason of being famous, but I do think trans and gender-nonconforming people get banned a lot on dating apps for no reason.
Mae: Oh yeah 100%. But I was like… was my banter really bad? Where they were like this can’t possibly be Mae Martin because this person is incredibly boring?
Drew: (laughs) That’s so funny. Well, okay, so during quarantine I feel like I have a lot of friends who were exploring new things about their gender and sexuality. We were isolated for a long time and had a lot of time to reflect. I mean, I hooked up with my roommates and thought I was bisexual for a month. You know, we had a lot of time to do things like that.
Mae: (laughs)
Drew: (laughs) Right? So I know you’ve said you’re further along in your development than the Mae of the show and this season fictional Mae is getting closer to figuring some things out gender-wise. So I was wondering if being in lockdown made you think about your identity in new ways or if it just allowed you the time to process it in the creation of the second season.
Mae: I think maybe it was a little bit of both. It’s so hard to know what it would have been like if I wasn’t in lockdown. But I definitely think having a break from constantly bumping up against gender in the world helped. I mean, every time you buy a coffee somebody genders you. It’s always sir or ma’am. So having a break from that must have given me some more mental space. But then also writing season one and writing a character who is in turmoil about their gender even just from a narrative perspective you’re like well if we’re going to tie up this show we better get to the bottom of what’s going on there.
Drew: (laughs) Yeah.
Mae: I’m sure that that really did make me reflect more and maybe faster than I would have. But it’s stuff that I’ve known and articulated to my friends for a long time. I just haven’t had the language or the confidence to articulate it publicly. So I’m really glad to have the show as a reason to do that. Also I think season one the character Mae was sort of me ten years ago but season two it feels much more in real time.
Drew: Oh interesting.
Mae: Yeah the character is figuring out stuff that I’m currently figuring out. So it’s pretty meta.
Drew: I love in the show how Mae identifies as a Ryan Gosling or Adam Driver. And also identifies with John Wick and then George compares them to James Dean. Can you talk a bit about those models of masculinity and what your models of masculinity are?
Mae: Well, I also refer to myself as inanimate objects a lot.
Drew: (laughs) That’s true. You do that.
Mae: Corn and sticks. But I guess it’s all just this sort of lighthearted way I talk about it with my friends about how I feel. It’s a good way in and a good way to sort of explain it to people. But in terms of choosing the examples, these days you have to be very careful that the person you choose to reference in your show isn’t going to turn out to be some kind of abuser.
Drew: Yeah…
Mae: So we’re just hoping Ryan Gosling and Adam Driver remain blemishless examples of romantic dudes. Because growing up I did fantasize about being the leading man when I was watching Romeo + Juliet or whatever else. So it’s fun to reference that fantasy.
Drew: James Dean is such an interesting one to me. Before I knew I was trans I was trying really hard to be a guy and James Dean was such a go-to model for me. In part because he’s dead and died really young so he’s not really real. I mean, anyone who’s as famous as Ryan Gosling also is sort of not real.
Mae: Right.
Drew: Not that they’re inanimate objects, but I think there’s a clear line between identifying as corn and identifying as a famous actor.
Mae: Yeah and the character Mae is very much in a state of arrested development. They’re kind of an adolescent in a lot of aspects of their life. So it makes sense comedically for them to be obsessed with Leo in Romeo + Juliet and idolizing these iconic figures. And James Dean is this beautiful, vulnerable almost… I bet if he was alive now he’d be non-binary. He’s a really interesting character. And he was bi, wasn’t he?
Drew: Oh yeah. He was famously bi.
Mae: Just a vulnerable and beautiful person.
Drew: I think about the way we talk about gender and sexuality now. It’s not new but it is new to the mainstream. So I think it’s interesting to think about people from the first hundred years of film and television who maybe would’ve used different labels if they were more common.
Mae: Yeah!
Drew: And obviously we can’t go back and reassign things to people who aren’t alive anymore but it’s interesting to think about.
Mae: It’s a good thing to remember when things feel hard is how much harder they used to be. I know that’s not particularly comforting. But I do feel lucky that I’m able to have a career where I can say these things and make art about these things really explicitly.
Drew: There’s a moment where Binky says she saw Mae’s comedy about wanting to be a boy and it was hilarious and when Mae gets uncomfortable Binky is like, you’re a comedian aren’t I supposed to think it’s hilarious? How have you navigated the discomfort of figuring out if someone is laughing with you or at you? Or do you not care?
Mae: I try not to care. There are a couple of references in the second season where the character is struggling with how to use their own pain and personal experiences in their comedy without it feeling unsafe or exploitative and it’s something I’ve struggled with. But in general I always brace myself for this kind of backlash of ignorance that often never comes. Especially when you’re stuck in your house for a year on the internet you start to feel like people are awful, but the reality is a lot of people are very thoughtful and great and I’ve been really lucky that the response has been so nuanced.
Charlotte Ritchie and I were doing a press junket the other day and we were psyching ourselves up to be fielding all these awkward questions from misinformed people. And then everyone who came in was just incredibly articulate and thoughtful. It was a good lesson.
Drew: Yeah I was talking to someone else about this recently — and I think you explore this a lot in the first season — that so much of the shame we feel is connected to society. So much of it is that we’re socially raised to expect to be othered and to be treated poorly. And it’s not that we don’t have those experiences but I’ve been thinking about that a lot for myself going back out into the world. If I live my life expecting to be treated poorly then I’m already being treated poorly by my own brain.
Mae: Right! It’s such a tricky balance. Because you want to protect yourself but also give people the benefit of the doubt. And often I’m pleasantly surprised. But it’s definitely a tricky balance.
Drew: How do you protect yourself? Not just in discussing things people might be ignorant about, but going back to what you said earlier — you put a lot of yourself in this show, you mine a lot of your experiences and traumas. How do you figure out what you don’t want to share?
Mae: I have boundaries around protecting other people’s privacy, so I’ve definitely not excavated certain experiences and relationships because I don’t want to make other people uncomfortable. But in terms of myself I’m still sort of waiting to hit that benchmark where I’m like wait this is my boundary.
I find talking about it in the press to be where I struggle most. I mean, not this. This is lovely.
Drew: (laughs) No, no, I totally get it.
Mae: It’s just I spend all this time thinking about exactly what I want to say and how I want to say it. And I want to say it in this kind of nuanced and self-deprecating and balanced way. So you kind of want to say just watch the show and you’ll see how I feel about all these things.
Drew: (laughs) Yeah totally.
Mae: Because when I try off the cuff to distill it into a couple of sentences for a major newspaper where I know they’re going to take it out of context — that I find tricky. And because the themes in the show happen to be topical at the moment — even though they’re just things that affect my life — there’s also this sense that the show is just this intense therapeutic exercise for me. But the thing that helps me not feel too emotionally invested is remembering that this is a piece of art and it’s co-written with my co-creator Joe Hampson and we put so much thought into the other characters and it is detached from me — of course it is. So while it’s very raw and exposing and nerve-wracking to put this stuff out there it’s easier because it’s within this framework that I’ve constructed really carefully with people I trust. And in a way that I think is funny! But then when I read the interviews I’m like this doesn’t sound funny at all. But I swear it is. Just watch the show.
Drew: Something I really love about the show is it’s more farcical than other traumedies. You’re really not afraid to commit to a comedic bit even though it’s dealing with all these serious things. I really appreciate that.
Mae: Thank you. The jokes are as important as the heavier themes and the dramatic turning points. A good example is the montage of sexual role plays. Those are so ridiculous. And it was so funny to us that shooting each one required a full set up, the art department doing a whole design thing, and it was all this work going into these really ridiculous things that made us laugh.
Drew: Well, that’s such a great example, because those bits are so funny and at the same time the role plays are a defense mechanism for Mae and you’re exploring the ways sex can be used as a defense mechanism. All the things that maybe in interviews you get really heady about in a way that’s not funny — those are the jokes. It’s not like oh there are jokes and then there’s serious stuff. Obviously there are some moments that are just serious or just funny but so much of the show is this combination and I really like that.
Mae: Thanks so much.
Drew: At the risk of now asking you a question where you have to talk about something in a heady way…
Mae: (laughs)
Drew: I wanted to talk about labels both when it comes to gender and sexuality which we already touched upon but also when the doctor tells Mae they have PTSD and they ask if she’s sure they aren’t just full of birds. It’s such an interesting thing to me this idea of not wanting to be held down into a label — be it preferring to identify as Ryan Gosling than non-binary or preferring to be full of birds than have PTSD.
Mae: For me, I’ve always found labels of any kind slightly claustrophobic. I’ve always felt like the minute I ascribe a label to myself be it non-binary or bisexual or whatever it starts to seem like that aspect of my identity dominates all other parts. And I think there are more interesting things about me. But then when I say that I feel like I’m being a bad role model because I recognize how life-saving and important finding labels can be. Finding a community and self-identifying and having the language to fight for our rights and things like that. But I personally have found them difficult.
I did an Instagram post recently coming out as non-binary and it felt good to do in the moment, but in a way it also felt like a compromise. Because even though that’s how I identify the reason why I did it was to prevent being constantly misgendered. I knew I was doing all this press and everything written about non-heterosexual cisgender white male performers has a prefix. You’re a bisexual comedian or a female comedian or a lesbian comedian or whatever. And those are often wrong when they’re about me. They’re just factually incorrect.
I like in the show that when Mae and George are together in their bubble they don’t stress about labels at all. They can really explore sexually and in all kinds of ways different aspects of themselves. They’re sort of their own community.
Drew: Yeah I like that a lot.
Mae: I really don’t mind talking about my identity, but it’s just talked about by other people so much more than if I was a straight cis comedian. But then people will be like, Well you wrote a whole show about it. And it’s like I didn’t. I wrote a love story with a character who is non-binary and bisexual. I don’t know. I’m rambling.
Drew: No, no. I think that makes a lot of sense. And something I think about a lot is, like, the conversation you and I are going to have about transness and queerness is so different than a conversation you’re going to have with even the most respectful cis straight interviewer.
Mae: Yes!
Drew: So it makes sense that I’m asking you some of these questions on a platform like Autostraddle but if you’re being interviewed in a mainstream press outlet why does that become the focus? And why does it become the focus in this very basic, non-nuanced way?
Mae: Yes, exactly. It feels not necessarily in good faith. Which is why I love doing things like this because it feels like a very safe and thoughtful place to discuss these things. But that’s not always the case. I’m sure it’s the same in the US right now, but there’s been a disproportionate amount of reporting around transness and it feels like our identities have been so co-opted by this political force and it doesn’t feel good to fuel that hysteria. But also I hope by making this show I’m presenting a more human and relatable depiction of what that’s like. So I hope that helps in some way. But the discourse around it is so fraught and binary and basic and inflammatory. I think The Times newspaper in the UK did 223 articles so far this year on trans stuff. And I think that’s too many?
Drew: (laughs)
Mae: And it just creates this further backlash because people are like, Oh my God what is this thing that’s taking over my newsfeed. You know what I mean?
Drew: Yeah. Unfortunately the US is catching up, but the UK is particularly transphobic and has this very clear machine in place to incite that anger in order to create media careers and spread hatred. It’s such a fraught space to go into especially when your primary goal is to make a comedy show.
Mae: Exactly!
Drew: I mean, obviously you have these deeper goals, but you’re making a comedy show, you’re making a show that’s semi-autobiographical and you happen to have these experiences. It is unfair when you’re an artist with any marginalized identity that it becomes so all-consuming. And in a way that’s basic. And often flat-out inaccurate.
Mae: Yeah and Feel Good is about trauma and addiction and codependency. There’s a thread about gender for sure, but it feels inaccurate to say this is a show about gender.
Drew: Yeah, very much. Something I really cherish about having a show from someone like you is that the community can be… maybe the words are… made fun of? In a way that’s really nuanced and funny as opposed to hateful. Like the character Elliott who is this very specific type of queer person that I think other queer people will recognize and find humor in. Or one of my favorite jokes in the show — when Mae says they shouldn’t have dated someone bisexual and Scott is like… aren’t you bisexual? That felt so true to my queer community. That sort of playful self-hatred.
Mae: I like that joke about Mae being bisexual, because I think there’s also some misogyny there for Mae. And in the way that Mae approaches George sometimes.
Drew: Oh that’s interesting.
Mae: And Elliott, yeah. I guess in a way on paper Elliott is a great option for George. She’s just gone through this massive change and he’s someone who is so open and appears to be so giving. He’s not asking anything of George. But then, yeah, he’s very judgmental of, for instance, her mildly problematic sexual preferences. It’s something I’ve encountered for sure. This kind of dogmatic… I don’t know the right way to phrase this. But whatever it is, you picked up on it!
Drew: (laughs)
Mae: It’s a recognizable experience I think to be like, Oh great I’ve found my community and then to feel like, Oh I’m not doing being queer correctly apparently? People are telling me I’m not queer enough or I’m not bi enough. I think people can relate to that.
Drew: Yeah for sure. I also really like that you still prioritize the central love story. I mean, again, obviously on paper Elliott would be better for George and George and Mae probably shouldn’t be together after last season. But I like this suggestion that I get from the show that you don’t need to have all your trauma worked out, you don’t need to be perfect, in order to connect with someone else. You can do that with another person. You can sometimes be a bit toxic, because I think most of us are. I really like how the two seasons together are this love story.
Mae: Thanks! And, yeah, in season one they’re pretty toxic, but season two I really admire how much work they’re putting into their relationship.
Drew: Yeah!
Mae: They’re both really trying to compromise and make it work. And I know in my own life I’ve definitely felt like I have to have all my shit figured out before I can be in a serious adult relationship and I think it’s important to learn that it’s okay to need somebody sometimes and it’s okay to do that work with someone. You don’t have to have everything figured out before you open up.
Drew: The show really gets into what’s romantic vs. what’s this skewed Love, Actually version of romance and to me the idea of working through problems and giving people some grace is romantic. Obviously we should also be aware of times where it’s better to walk away.
Mae: Like Mae with Scott, right? It has to be on a case-by-case basis. Even in season one with Maggie. I think a big theme of the show is what we do with people we love who have hurt us. Even with Mae’s parents. It just has to be case-by-case. But I find that hopeful too that Mae and George allow each other to grow. And I’m constantly struggling with what’s healthy in relationships. Needing someone versus wanting someone. And I think we leave them in a place where they’re at least making a really conscious choice to be together, not just compelled to be together because they’re anxious and want to own each other.
Drew: Yes. So the last thing I want to talk about is pretty serious… well, you manage to make a lot of things funny so maybe you’ll be able to do that here.
Mae: (laughs) Try me.
Drew: (laughs) Well, throughout the season George is tackling these really big issues of how to make the world a better place, while Mae is confronting these personal traumas that connect to this larger question of harm and accountability. And, look, I work in this industry and, well, I live in this world, and I appreciate the way the show is honest about how impossible it can feel to change these systems of power. So, I guess, I’m wondering while writing this season if you made any discoveries for yourself about how we can approach these big picture issues.
Mae: I think the backlash to the Me Too Movement and all the conversations around it became really focused on outing people. So I wanted to show that there are no winners in these situations. If somebody outs somebody online, that doesn’t mean that they’ve won. They’re still dealing with the ripple effect of the harm. And also let’s face it most of the time people’s abusers are someone they know and care about whether it’s a friend or a family member or someone they’re dating. Most of the time it’s not a stranger in an alleyway. I don’t think we often get to show how excruciating it is to try to reckon with people who you care about who have hurt you in that way.
I didn’t want to make a revenge fantasy show or even a show about sexual assault. It’s very much a show asking what do we do with our trauma from the past and how much do we let it affect our present and how much responsibility do we take for how it’s affecting the people around us. The show doesn’t really propose any answers but hopefully it will start some interesting conversations. I hope it just shows the long-lasting effects of the harm and the ripples it can have. We’ve just started to scratch the surface, unfortunately. But I have to be positive and hope that things are changing. Even in little ways like the last time I was at Just for Laughs there was a behavioral guide in the green rooms. Just a page plastered on the green rooms like, “Hey don’t rape anyone.”
Drew: (laughs)
Mae: But really like this is what’s appropriate and this is what’s not. And it’s just a small gesture but it will make a difference just in shaping the culture. I mean, in 2001 when I started doing comedy things were so different. I definitely think we’re moving in the right direction.
Drew: Oh my God that reminds me — this is a pretty stark pivot — but I found a video of you doing comedy when you were 16??
Mae: I was doing a character! Everybody watches it and thinks that’s what I was like.
Drew: (laughs) You were obviously doing a character! I could tell that.
Mae: (laughs) Oh good.
Drew: When you were doing comedy as a teenager were you mostly doing characters like that?
Mae: Yeah I was doing a lot of improv and sketch. And I was doing stand up too, but it took me years before I felt comfortable being more myself on stage. Oh my God I had some horrendous characters. I’m lucky YouTube didn’t exist then.
Drew: Well, I’m grateful the one we have is a 10th grader obsessed with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Mae: (laughs) Yeah.
Drew: Which I actually watched during the pandemic—
Mae: Wait, Drew. Will you make me sound smart in this interview? Because I feel like I’ve rambled a lot, but the thing is these are really tough questions and—
Drew: Mae.
Mae: Which we should all be talking about, but can you just emphasize that I don’t know anything—
Drew: Mae. Mae.
Mae: I’m a comedian.
Drew: (laughs) I will make sure people know you’re a comedian. But also you sound smart. You’re great.
Mae: (laughs) Okay.
Drew: I know you run a little anxious as do I. But you sound plenty smart.
Mae: Okay thank you.
Drew: You’re great. Everyone loves you. Well, maybe not everyone.
Mae: (laughs)
Drew: But everyone in my community!
Mae: I think it’s that I haven’t really left my apartment that much in a year and a half. It’ll be really nice to be out and feeling the response to the show. Especially from within the queer community. I’m so desperate to do right by everyone.
Drew: Honestly, it’s such a relief to have media that feels authentic. And not in the sense that it’s like an authentic story about a non-binary person or an authentic story about trauma — but in the sense that it’s an authentic story about these people Mae and George. And that ends up making it a more authentic story about a non-binary person and a more authentic story about trauma, you know?
Mae: Yeah, hopefully. I’m not necessarily doing it because I want to mine the identity or the trauma. It’s more of an artistic choice. Because I wouldn’t be good at writing a sci-fi movie about a bunch of dudes. This is my experience and I feel like it’s what I’m going to be best at writing. So it sometimes doesn’t feel like a choice and it can be scary. But I want to be a comedian and this is what I’m going to end up writing about. I hope people like it.
Both seasons of Feel Good are now streaming on Netflix.
Mae Martin on “Feel Good,” Dating, and What They’re Doing In Quarantine
When I told my friends I was interviewing Mae Martin, three different people said, “Oh my God! I have such a crush on them.”
Well, if you watch Mae Martin’s new Netflix show Feel Good hoping for a crushable romantic lead you will not be disappointed. But you may be surprised by the complexity infused into its romcom narrative. Yes, Martin is funny and cute, and, yes, the show is funny and cute, but it’s also asking serious questions about addiction, gender identity, and codependent relationships.
Mae Martin in “Feel Good”
I was lucky enough to talk about these topics with Mae Martin – and find out how they’re spending their quarantine.
The interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Drew Gregory: Hi Mae!
Mae Martin: Hi! How are you?
Drew: Oh, you know, as good as anyone can be at this moment. How are you doing?
Mae Martin: I mean, you know, me and my roommate are getting pretty close. Where are you?
Drew: I’m in LA.
Mae: At least you have sun and stuff. I’m in London. It’s very claustrophobic.
Drew: I’m sure. Do you have a good relationship with your roommate?
Mae: Oh yeah! She was a friend of a friend and now it turns out she’s going to be my only friend.
Drew: (laughs)
Mae: But we’re getting into it. We’re playing poker every night actually.
Drew: That’s great.
Mae: I think competitive people are going to thrive. A lot of board games happening.
Drew: Absolutely.
Mae: It’s going to be weird for dating! I guess people are going to have a lot of Skype dates?
Drew: Are you currently single? Or dating?
Mae: I’m single, yeah. So do I go on dating apps and have Skype dates? I don’t really like dating apps. We’ll see what happens. Are you single?
Drew: I am single. And I also don’t really love dating apps. But I’m just bored, so I’ve been on Tinder a lot. There’s nothing that’s going to come of it I guess except a Skype date or maybe something months from now.
Mae: Yeah. Skype dates might actually be an improvement on the usual Tinder thing? Because you’re forced to get to know the person and you can decide if you really want a face-to-face date.
Drew: That is true. When this is all over we could have these deep relationships with people who we’ve never met before. It’s a whole new world.
Mae: Everyone is going to want to have orgies after this.
Drew: Yes.
Mae: Just desperate for human contact.
Drew: Well, the other thing that can happen is like two week dates because that’s the incubation period for the virus. So you could talk to someone on Skype and then be like okay so we like each other enough to commit to spending two weeks together.
Mae: That’s such a good idea. That’s a good premise for a sitcom.
Drew: Well, it’s funny because obviously Feel Good starts with an intense Uhauling situation.
Mae: Yeah.
Drew: Is that something that’s common for you? Like are you someone who would go on a two week date?
Mae: I have fallen in love pretty hard in the past. Not always. I know that’s supposed to be a queer trope, but it’s happened to my friends across all demographics. Like my co-writer Joe has definitely experienced that too. I think there are some red flags about really intense, speedy courtships like that, right?
Drew: Yeah, I guess so. That’s the thing. It is a red flag. But at the same time – I mean, the first ten minutes of the show I was like fully on board. And there are still times in my own life where I’m like oh that sounds great – a whirlwind romance – who doesn’t want that?
Mae: I’m a romantic, so I’m all for it. You have to take risks to get the pay off.
Drew: Do you think it’s possible to have that happen and it not be a red flag? Or do you feel like as the years pass you’re more cautious and have realized this isn’t really how it’s supposed to work?
Mae: I think it’s possible. Like my parents, their first date lasted like five days. And my dad is British and he moved back to England. Then my mom kind of showed up in England and said I want to be with you and they moved in together really fast after that.
Drew: Oh wow.
Mae: Yeah they’re my model so maybe I’m naive. But I’m optimistic!
Drew: I want to talk about the sex on the show. First of all, it was great how many strap-ons there were. They were so casually present in a way that’s rare even for queer shows. I’m curious did the sex scenes come naturally from the characters and your own experience or did you think specifically about what sex acts we don’t usually see on-screen?
Mae: Definitely the former, personal experience. It’s true that I haven’t really seen my own sex life reflected on-screen, but it was just kind of an organic and natural thing. Especially with a show about a relationship it would be such a conspicuous omission not to include sex. It’s funny a lot of the feedback has been that there’s so much sex, but compared to Fleabag or Girls or Sex Education there’s very little. I think it’s a type of sex we don’t see very often so it jumps out at people. But I’m pleased about that. It was always important to us that it move the plot along – all of those scenes are narratively important. They’re not just voyeuristic where you sit back and watch people bang for a while. There’s some emotional development within the scene.
Also I think that’s the type of relationship we’re depicting, right? These characters don’t have much in common except that they’re so attracted to each other and love having sex with each other. We had to see that so we could really understand what was making them work. It’s kind of the burning engine of the relationship that they want to bang all the time.
Drew: Also the sex scenes – some of them at least – are so funny?
Mae: Thanks! Like the Susan Sarandon–
Drew: Yes that’s exactly what I was going to bring up! That’s just such an amazing specific. What’s your favorite Susan Sarandon movie?
Mae: I love Igby Goes Down. I love Rocky Horror Picture Show. I love Thelma and Louise. Dead Man Walking. Look, I’m a big fan. And she specifically has a very sexy voice. Also it’s just something I knew Charlotte could do. Charlotte is a friend of mine and we’d been in LA together and she’d been doing this deep American accent as a joke. I knew I wanted to get it in there and make her do it. She nailed it so much. That was a really hard scene to get through because I was laughing so hard.
Drew: I’m sure. Also the moment where fictional Mae says that usually she can come just by thinking about the musical Chicago. Would that be the stage musical or the film adaptation?
Mae: Either. But on my birthday a couple years ago I did go to see Chicago. It’s my dream. I mean, I love– I love Bette Middler– I like kind of femmes– powerful– I don’t know they’re so talented! The women in Chicago! And their fishnets and they’re talking about murder! I love it.
Drew: Chicago was one of my roots for sure. I’m 26 so when the movie came out I was like 9. And it was a real game-changer.
Mae: It’s amazing. Queen Latifah? So good.
Drew: The best. So pivoting a little bit, I really appreciated how you portrayed this dynamic that can arise between a masc person and a certain type of cis femme. It’s not something I’ve seen on-screen very often. I found it really interesting how Mae was trying so hard to play a role in the relationship. How much do you think that was coming from the messaging she received from George and how much do you think it was her own insecurity? Maybe it’s both.
Mae: Yeah I think it’s both. I think the first half of the series it’s very much coming from George, but then once you realize this is a pattern of Mae’s and once George comes out and is totally there for her that shame still remains. Similarly with George coming out and realizing that a lot of her fears were internal, because actually there was no real reaction from her friends and her mom. I’m really interested in internalized shame and homophobia. It’s so hard to figure out what’s internal conflict and what you’ve absorbed from the world and society. It’s an ongoing process of discovery I think.
Drew: Does that shift depending on who you’re dating – depending on their gender, depending on their level of experience if they’re queer? At least, for you personally?
Mae: Yeah, absolutely. Gender identity aside I think everyone can feel like a different version of themselves depending on who they’re dating. People bring out different qualities in you. But yeah for sure I find dating men it shifts in a way. And the relationship in the show is based on a handful of relationships I had with women who had never been with girls before. That can be a complicated and insecure position to be in – to go through that process with someone. There’s a line in the show: “Don’t let her shame rub off on you. It’ll give you bad posture.” I’ve definitely felt that before. You’ve got to just get to a place where you’re secure in yourself and untouchable. But I don’t know if I’m there yet and this character definitely isn’t there yet. I’m further along than her.
Drew: I loved that line. And I loved Lava who said it! I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to. But the whole time I was like, oh my God just be with her. That is so obviously the thing you should be doing right now.
Mae: I’m so glad! I love how blunt she is and confident in herself and yeah Mae should totally date her. She’s so good. That’s Ritu Arya. She’s about to be in the second season of The Umbrella Academy. She’s going to be mega huge. That character is so forward and sexy and how everyone wishes they could be – like have a mic drop moment: “If you were my girlfriend I’d make you come in under a minute.”
Drew: Oh my God yeah. That moment I was like mhm yes I’m in love with you.
Mae: (laughs) Yeah.
Drew: It’s interesting the way the show frames Mae’s relationships as just another form of addiction – Mae’s mom says Mae doesn’t love people she loves the idea of love itself. Do you think people who have that pattern can still date? How do they push past that and realize how they actually feel about a person? I don’t know. I guess I’m just asking you to therapize me a little bit. But I’m curious your thoughts!
Mae: Part of it is recognizing the problem and being aware of it. Pushing through that initial euphoria – that kind of agony and ecstasy – and allowing yourself to be your authentic self. Both George and Mae are often performing for each other and I think to transform a relationship like that into a long term healthy one it’s just about hard work. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know if those characters are going to be able to do it if there’s a season two. I don’t know if I can do it in my life. But I’m trying. I like how George says in episode six, “I’m not a thing. I’m a person.” And that’s it, right? Cocaine doesn’t talk back and have feelings and have needs. People aren’t things so it’s empathy, authenticity, vulnerability. And really everyone says – and I’ve had experiences in the past so I know that it’s true – that actually being truly vulnerable and authentic is the biggest high of all. It’s much more profound than that initial rush. It’s actually totally transcendent when you’re yourself.
Drew: In regards to the actual addiction storyline, how did you find a balance between representing your lived experience with addiction and recovery and skewing more towards dramatic tension and humor? I’m specifically interested in how you decided to present the meetings. Obviously there’s a lot of representation of addiction out there that’s inaccurate because it’s made by people who don’t have any personal experience.
Mae: Yeah I felt a responsibility too with the 12 step program because I’m not a devout 12-stepper. Like the character in the show, I drop in and out of meetings and if I feel I need it I’ll go. There are things I find really useful and other things that I don’t. So I guess I was trying to present the idea that it’s not a one size fits all solution for everyone. The depiction of the meetings – like the format of the meetings – is not particularly realistic because they wouldn’t be allowed to digress into these insane comedic debates. But I definitely found humor and empathy and all those things in those meetings. I think in my life I follow a harm reduction philosophy and in my teens I was in rehab for about nine months through a harm reduction program that was less about 12 steps and total abstinence. It’s kind of a practical and nonjudgmental approach and it’s not right for everyone but it works for me. And I’m interested in all that – like if Mae the character did coke once and she hasn’t done it in years does that mean she’s back to square one? With everything we just tried to show the nuance and complexity to these things and it’s different for everyone. There’s not one answer.
Drew: The last thing I want to talk about is Mae’s mom. Obviously Lisa Kudrow is amazing and amazing in this, but also I just loved the character. I loved how she left every interaction by saying the person she talked to was rude. She just felt very, very authentic. And the ending was both really comforting that she wants Mae to come home, but also – Shelli another Autostraddle writer pointed this out to me – there’s sort of a disconcerting dynamic where some parents can only be supportive in times of crisis. I thought that was a really interesting observation and maybe explains why I felt the way I did. I’d love to hear about the development of that character and what you hoped to achieve with her.
Mae: I wanted to tap into what I think is a universal experience of wanting your parents to like you, worrying that they don’t, wanting to hold them accountable for things but also not wanting to disrupt the equilibrium, and really just wanting their approval. I have a great relationship with my parents now, but I was sort of exploring some adolescent stuff and I think in the Blackpool episode Mae the character kind of regresses to adolescence. We might be frustrated with the parents and their emotional detachment, but we also empathize, because Mae can be so selfish and myopic. I wanted to present a balanced view of their relationship. I wanted us to see how difficult it is as a parent too. I think Lisa did that so well.
Drew: It felt extremely balanced. I mean, it just felt really real.
Mae: I’m glad that people seem to be empathizing with her character.
Drew: Before I go, do you have any big quarantine plans? Are you able to stay productive? I haven’t found that pandemic fosters the most relaxed creativity for myself, but I’m curious how you’re doing.
Mae Martin: No, I’m the same. For the last week I’ve had no attention span and I can’t stick with anything. But I think I’m going to just settle into it and try to structure my days. I bought an exercise bike. Because it’s hard! Part of what keeps my brain happy is going to the gym and going to 12 step meetings and doing stand up. And none of those things can happen now. So it’s great if I can break a sweat once a day and relieve some stress. But I think people shouldn’t beat themselves up if they want to stay in bed and eat cheese and cry.
Feel Good starring Mae Martin is now streaming on Netflix.
Netflix’s “Feel Good” Insists Deeply Flawed Queer People Are Worthy of Love
Fourteen months ago I was sitting in the parking garage of The Getty Villa fighting with my girlfriend. I was filled with self-righteousness.
She made me feel bad about myself – all of a sudden she made me feel bad about myself. I felt inadequate as a girlfriend, I’d certainly failed as a boyfriend, and I knew that the distance between us was definitely her fault. She wasn’t out when we started dating and, okay, fine, neither was I, but now I was a dyke trans poster child for obvious queerness and she got to be a soft femme pansexual cis woman who fit in just as well with the straight people who side-eyed me as she did the queer people who were like me. Sure, she loved me, but every moment I felt that it would be easier for her if she didn’t.
Well, you’ll be shocked to find out that upon verbalizing these thoughts, I felt foolish. It’s too simple to say they weren’t true – I mean, they weren’t – but within the falsities were real questions. How do two queer people experience love? How do two queer people still figuring out their sexualities, their genders, their shames, their traumas, their pasts, their futures, their vastly different presents make a relationship work? And when it’s not supposed to work how will they know when all that other bullshit is in the way?
Mae Martin’s new Netflix show Feel Good starts with a ten minute romcom that’s easy to relish for all the wrong reasons. Martin plays a version of herself – a Canadian comedian living in London who’s queer and anxious and is aptly compared to both a puppy and an androgynous muppet. After her set one night, fictional Mae starts flirting with a woman named George (Charlotte Ritchie). George says she’s never been with a woman before but then they kiss and before the title card even appears on-screen they move in together.
Lesbian Uhaul jokes have been hack since the 90s. But as queer people continue to play out old stereotypes it’s worth exploring the sometimes unsettling nature of these behaviors. After this opening sequence that has us ready to root for Mae, George, their delightful flirting, and their whirlwind romance, the cracks begin to form. Mae’s energy is eager and aggressive in a way that quickly loses its appeal. We realize that George still hasn’t introduced Mae to her friends. We meet Mae’s parents over FaceTime and her mom – a remarkable and hilarious performance from Lisa Kudrow – is clearly one of those people who hates themselves so much you know they hate you too. And then we learn that Mae is a recovering drug addict – and, more importantly, George learns this too.
Throughout the show’s six episodes, Mae fights to move on from her addiction, confront her familial hurt, and be the person she thinks George wants. Meanwhile, George is working to overcome her own shame, accept her queerness, and communicate her needs to herself and Mae. Hardly a moment passes that isn’t filled with their relationship’s impending doom. Both characters are just too lost in themselves to be there for each other.
This makes the show sound heavy – and, at times, it is – but Martin is so casually charming and all the writing is so sharp that the heavier moments feel as random as they do inevitable. Maybe it’s the quarantine, but there were lines and scenes in this show that made me laugh harder than I have in a long, long time.
Most of the straight press has compared Feel Good to Fleabag which has been happening to a lot of shows – it’s the new every young woman is the *insert adjective* Lena Dunham. And while it’s true both shows are British and revolve around flawed protagonists with love and sex addictions, what’s lost in the comparison is how intrinsically tied in plot and theme Feel Good is to its queerness.
This isn’t just a show about an addict and her codependent girlfriend. It’s a show about a queer person who thinks she’s probably nonbinary and definitely unhappy. It’s a show about another queer person who all her life used normalcy as a defense mechanism and now doesn’t know what to do without it. It’s a show that introduces a queer character who’s funny and hot and comfortable in her gayness but is ignored by our protagonist who isn’t ready for that reality. It’s a show with lines like “The only reason you’d chase people who aren’t attracted to your entire gender is because you hate yourself.” and “I’m going to be left watching The L Word and googling ‘Am I gay?’ while you barnacle yourself to the next straight girl you meet.” and “I’m not a boy. I’m not even a girl. I’m like a failed version of both.”
There are times in Feel Good where you hate George and love Mae, filled with the same self-righteousness that I felt in that parking garage. And there are times where you loathe Mae and feel for George, filled with the same shame I felt two minutes later. Mae and George are deeply flawed – most of us are – but can they be in love despite that? While queer people are still figuring themselves out – a project often more complicated for us – can we have that swoon-worthy ten minute love story?
The show doesn’t answer that question. But it does insist that we deserve love to some degree – even if it isn’t a partner’s love. Maybe for some of us romantic love is just a shortcut anyway. Maybe what some of us need is a parent or a friend or a sponsor.
One of the show’s heavier moments involves another addict getting talked down by his sponsor after a relapse. She wants him to say that he is loved. He doesn’t want to. “Say it,” she insists. “You are loved.” Finally he breaks down. He says it.
I am loved.